Start of Detroit's downturn

[Cincinnati_Kid]

Detroit Street Railways [[DSR), the predecessor to DDOT, took over the Detroit city streetcar lines from the Detroit United Railway [[DUR) in May of 1922. The first abandonment of a streetcar line occurred in Aug 1923 when the East Fort St/Congress line was abandoned. At takeover, there were 407.23 miles of streetcar line under DSR control.

Through a combination of new construction and use of DUR interurban lines, the DSR extended their routes until they operated 533.75 miles of streetcar line by Sept 1930. By 1939, enough routes had been cut back or eliminated that the DSR operated 430.35 miles of streetcar line.

After World War II [[and the period of greatest ridership), the city steadily phased out its streetcar lines beginning with the Oakman line in Dec 1945. By 1950, the DSR was down to 176.60 miles of track on ten lines [[Mt. Elliott, Oakland, Trumbull, Clairmount, Mack, Baker, Jefferson, Michigan, Gratiot, and Woodward). By the end of 1951, there were only five lines left with 65.46 miles [[Baker, Jefferson, Michigan, Gratiot, and Woodward). On April 8, 1956, the last Woodward streetcar ceased to run. Where in there was the "tipping point"? By the time of the last abandonment, there wasn't much left of the system. I don't think you can say that the loss of the Gratiot and Woodward lines in 1956 had that much of an impact.

I've also heard the auto companies were instrumental in having the streetcars eliminated, because they felt everyone should own a car and drive wearever they wanted to go. Is this true?

[Bham1982]

Who has streetcars anymore? The only city that comes to mind is Toronto. The cable cars in San Francisco are more novelty than function.

Most cities with light rail use street-running systems [["streetcars"). Cleveland is a good local example. The lines even stop at traffic lights.

There are many "light subway" style light rail systems, but usually in Europe and China. Most U.S. systems are heavily street-running systems.

SF, Boston and two systems in the NYC area [[both in Northern NJ) do have some "light subway" segments [[underground, completely grade separated subway style routes).

Also Detroit has had the PeopleMover for 25 years and that hasn't really sparked any downtown development.

The light rail advocates conveniently forget this.

The People Mover, built as fully grade separated in the most prime land in the city, when the city was bigger, busier and richer, did nothing for development, but a trolley running with traffic through the badlands of Highland Park and the North End, will supposedly jumpstart development.

[Shollin]

Most cities with light rail use street-running systems [["streetcars"). Cleveland is a good local example. The lines even stop at traffic lights.

There are many "light subway" style light rail systems, but usually in Europe and China. Most U.S. systems are heavily street-running systems.

SF, Boston and two systems in the NYC area [[both in Northern NJ) do have some "light subway" segments [[underground, completely grade separated subway style routes).



The light rail advocates conveniently forget this.

The People Mover, built as fully grade separated in the most prime land in the city, when the city was bigger, busier and richer, did nothing for development, but a trolley running with traffic through the badlands of Highland Park and the North End, will supposedly jumpstart development.

I understand that cities have brought back light rail, but I was referring to the comment that of course Detroit would go into decline without it's rail, but about every city in the US tore out their streetcars in the 50's. Toronto is about the only city I know that had continuous operation since the 50's of their streetcars and not just for tourists.

Highland park really does throw a wrench in trying to build a strong urban core. It's hard to build out Woodward with Highland Park in the middle. I don't get the fascination with light rail. It's expensive to implement and I don't see how much more efficient it is than a bus. I think the bus rapid transit system in Cleveland is a very nice system. It cost less to implement and is much more flexible to alter or change routes and expand but it seems like people are fixed on this idea that it needs to be connected to a track.

[dtowncitylover]

Who has streetcars anymore? The only city that comes to mind is Toronto. The cable cars in San Francisco are more novelty than function.

Most "streetcars" have been converted into trams and light rail. Most, if not all, of the large cities in Europe have these systems. I went to Orleans, France last summer. It is a city of 150,000 residents and has two tram lines.

However, Melbourne has the largest streetcar system in the world. It goes all around their metro area, throughout the inner city and the suburbs. They also have a commuter rail system for the far reaches of the area.

[dtowncitylover]

I don't get the fascination with light rail. It's expensive to implement and I don't see how much more efficient it is than a bus. I think the bus rapid transit system in Cleveland is a very nice system. It cost less to implement and is much more flexible to alter or change routes and expand but it seems like people are fixed on this idea that it needs to be connected to a track.

I was going to write a paragraph with several example of why light rail is better but this is a big, perhaps a shallow reason, but this is Detroit. Aesthetics. Detroiters and suburbanites alike hate buses. Visiting Seattle a couple weeks ago was a neat view inside a metro area that actually uses the bus system. Suburbanites can take charter buses into the city or can get onto a bus from a park and ride smack dab in the middle of the I-5. Buses are used their like we use the car. Yes they have a light rail system from downtown to SeaTac and a commuter rail north to Everett, but the buses are nice, clean, modern buses.

But a bus system like that will never work in Detroit. Yes, we must upgrade DDOT and SMART. We need better buses that look decent to ride on, that are safe, and that arrive on time. But we need light rail to carry commuters faster than buses, to instigate dense urban development up and down Woodward, and to be a modern, 21st century city.

Well I may not have kept that as short as I would have liked...

[Shollin]

I was going to write a paragraph with several example of why light rail is better but this is a big, perhaps a shallow reason, but this is Detroit. Aesthetics. Detroiters and suburbanites alike hate buses. Visiting Seattle a couple weeks ago was a neat view inside a metro area that actually uses the bus system. Suburbanites can take charter buses into the city or can get onto a bus from a park and ride smack dab in the middle of the I-5. Buses are used their like we use the car. Yes they have a light rail system from downtown to SeaTac and a commuter rail north to Everett, but the buses are nice, clean, modern buses.

But a bus system like that will never work in Detroit. Yes, we must upgrade DDOT and SMART. We need better buses that look decent to ride on, that are safe, and that arrive on time. But we need light rail to carry commuters faster than buses, to instigate dense urban development up and down Woodward, and to be a modern, 21st century city.

Well I may not have kept that as short as I would have liked...

Perhaps you should read up on Cleveland's BRT. The buses used for BRT aren't your standrad DDOT or Smart bus. They have a dedicated right away and GPS that gives the buses right of away at traffic signals. The buses are large and can carry up to 100 passengers. You purchase your fare at the station and board the bus just like you would a rail. It is every bit as efficient as rail and allows the flexibility to move the bus line or route on other streets. The BRT in Cleveland does everything light rail does. It's also sparked development on Cleveland's Euclid Ave. It has been pretty successful.

[Shollin]

Euclid Ave is very similar to Woodward. It connects downtown with their University and cultural center just like Woodward. Since the line was implemented it has created billions in development.

http://urbanland.uli.org/Articles/20...rungHealthLine

[dtowncitylover]

Perhaps you should read up on Cleveland's BRT. The buses used for BRT aren't your standrad DDOT or Smart bus. They have a dedicated right away and GPS that gives the buses right of away at traffic signals. The buses are large and can carry up to 100 passengers. You purchase your fare at the station and board the bus just like you would a rail. It is every bit as efficient as rail and allows the flexibility to move the bus line or route on other streets. The BRT in Cleveland does everything light rail does. It's also sparked development on Cleveland's Euclid Ave. It has been pretty successful.

And yet it's still a bus. Detroit, urbanites and suburbanites, always have this stigma about buses.

I'm not against BRT. Maybe on M-59 I am. I just think we can set our sights a bit higher. It would be nice to implement light rail on Woodward, where it will be successful and BRT on other spokes and upgrade as needed.

I know there will be plenty of suburbanites who will see it and say, "Oh that's nice, looks spacious, but it's a bus and therefore I won't ride it." The exact same people who take weekends to Chicago and love the El and rave about it when they come back. But I hope I am proven wrong.

[Shollin]

I don't think suburbanites are going to drive down to Midtown and park and get on a streetcar. If we're looking to accomodate suburbanites, why not use the rails that are already in place that runs through Royal Oak, Birmingham and Pontiac? The Chicago EL really doesn't serve a lot of the suburbs. Metra is what serves the suburbs.

[Honky Tonk]

And yet it's still a bus. Detroit, urbanites and suburbanites, always have this stigma about buses.

I'm not against BRT. Maybe on M-59 I am. I just think we can set our sights a bit higher. It would be nice to implement light rail on Woodward, where it will be successful and BRT on other spokes and upgrade as needed.

I know there will be plenty of suburbanites who will see it and say, "Oh that's nice, looks spacious, but it's a bus and therefore I won't ride it." The exact same people who take weekends to Chicago and love the El and rave about it when they come back. But I hope I am proven wrong.

Did you take a poll or something? How do you know this?

[Drexciya68]

Wasn't Coleman the person who did away with STRESS?

As regards to STRESS being a reactionary response, I disagree. STRESS was started to make the bad guy think twice before pointed a gun at someone and robbed him. Kind of what's happening now with every citizen purchasing a gun "for protection". When I read about a business such as YOBS being robbed four time in a month, I start thinking that maybe it is because the people doing the robbing know they will face no harm.

Yep. I also know for a fact that many crooks saw the disbandment of STRESS as another reason continue to hurt, rob and kill Detroiters. This was at a time when many in the city felt targeted by predatory criminals and gangs. We ALL know what cay was trying to do and in 1993 we saw the results of his complete failure as Mayor. Not to mention that most in the streets knew coleman's family included well known huge drug dealers and other assorted lowlifes. Not only that coleman surrounded himself by his crooked and corrupt friends who he played like puppets. Cay's family was bringing huge amounts of dope and weapons into the city while cay's closest friends were stealing millions set up to fund... combating drug crimes. Cay was a lowlife who is an embarrassment to most Detroiters. The sad thing is that some don't want to see it or want to candy coat the harm that one man did to Detroit.

[Honky Tonk]

I don't think suburbanites are going to drive down to Midtown and park and get on a streetcar. If we're looking to accomodate suburbanites, why not use the rails that are already in place that runs through Royal Oak, Birmingham and Pontiac? The Chicago EL really doesn't serve a lot of the suburbs. Metra is what serves the suburbs.

That makes way the hell too much sense, instead, let's spend 150 million for a 3 mile choo-choo. I know! We can name it "People Mover II".

[Shollin]

Use the existing rails and put stops in Ferndale, Royal Oak, Birmingham/Troy, and Pontiac. The Detroit stop will be at the fairgrounds that have been developed, where one can transfer to the BRT which will terminate at the fairgrounds and ride it downtown, or use the existing Amtrak stop in New Center to transfer to the BRT, or continue on existing rails to the Henry Ford, Metro Airport, or Ann Arbor. For the cost of one short light rail, you could do a BRT down Woodward and another artery, perhaps Jefferson to help develop the riverfront.

[Drexciya68]

STRESS was done away with by CAY, partly because of the complaints he received that the 99% white DPD were harassing young black men for no-particular reason other than being black during the late 60's, early 70's. I recall plenty of times my older cousins told me of the "Big Four" riding down on them for just walking to the store. "Where ya goin BOY"!! I can justify them trying to deter crime, not for harassment. Soon after STRESS was eliminated, Young recruited blacks to join the DPD for the first time.

And guess what happened when cay disbanded that unit [[for Political purposes) and installed and even more crooked, corrupt and violent police force? Did you know cay hired his close friend Ex STRESS member Sgt James Harris as his head of security who later went to prison for doing all sorts of shit [[along with cay's brother in law) including crimes involving importing coke and guns into the city and stealing money from various city funds. It was a free for all under cay.. him and his cronies got paid as Detroit went down the tubes.

[Drexciya68]

I find it ironic some give a pass to Coleman Young since Detroit was already in decline but don't give Bing the same pass for what he inherited. Detroit was in decline before Young took over, but what exactly did Coleman Young do to make anything better? Detroit was still salvageable when Young took over. I grew up in the 70's in Detroit and I don't recall it being as bad as people say. My neighborhood was still in tact and relatively safe. Now, just about the whole block is gone. It seemed like things really hit the skids in the 80's. I grew up on Buffalo street south of McNichols. When I moved out I went to NE Detroit as my old neighborhood was starting the bust at the seems. It just seemed like the city started to rot from the center and kept spreading outward. It seemed like people moved from the center of the city, to the fringes and eventually out. When Archer took over I felt things leveled out, but Kwame destroyed any momentum. I don't foresee in my lifetime ever moving back to Detroit.

Coleman and the crime, neglect and disrespect Detroiters felt in their own city forced so many more people out. I can't believe that piece of shyt cay was allowed to bring so much shame to MY city for so long.

[Shollin]

My favorite Coleman Young moment was when Bill Bonds challenged him to a fight.

[Drexciya68]

My favorite Coleman Young moment was when Bill Bonds challenged him to a fight.

Mine wasn't when he tried to cover up the murder of a 13 year old kid [[Damion Lucas). Cay's kin was involved in that drug hit so he had his puppets try to cover it up.

[LeannaM]

Freeways have made it easier for people to bypass the city, so they probably have hurt cities in that respect. However, a freeway is not the only reason for a city's decline.

[Cincinnati_Kid]

And guess what happened when cay disbanded that unit [[for Political purposes) and installed and even more crooked, corrupt and violent police force? Did you know cay hired his close friend Ex STRESS member Sgt James Harris as his head of security who later went to prison for doing all sorts of shit [[along with cay's brother in law) including crimes involving importing coke and guns into the city and stealing money from various city funds. It was a free for all under cay.. him and his cronies got paid as Detroit went down the tubes.

So what's your point? Do you think things would have been better if STRESS
continued? I don't think so, racial tensions would have reached a boiling point as was the case in 1967. Who was more corrupt than Louis Miriani? and he was a devout racist to boot. The racial divide started with him. Does he get a pass? All poiliticians are corrupt, that's why they're politicians.

[dtowncitylover]

I don't think suburbanites are going to drive down to Midtown and park and get on a streetcar. If we're looking to accomodate suburbanites, why not use the rails that are already in place that runs through Royal Oak, Birmingham and Pontiac? The Chicago EL really doesn't serve a lot of the suburbs. Metra is what serves the suburbs.

No I don't think so either. However there have been times when I'm in midtown already parked and would love to go downtown. But anyways, I agree we should use the rail line to Pontiac, there's also the rail line out to Novi via Livonia that could used too.

And Honky Tonk, I grew up in the suburbs, I went to school here, I went to university here, I work here. Despite the fact I would never live in Livonia, or Rochester Hills, or Sterling Heights, I am 100% suburbanite. And I accept that. If my fellow suburbanites loved buses, SMART would be self-sufficient and I wouldn't hear the degrading remarks made about buses when I try to talk transit with them.

[Smirnoff]

Question: who wants to be robbed & walk unsafe streets?

Answer: CAY

Abolishing STRESS was a big mistake & an enabler to the city's downturn & flight acceleration. Ask yourself, how many citizens want to live in a neighborhood with the fear of being robbed or worse.....when CAY told tax paying citizens with pride living in the city where our grandparents grew up to get out, we left quickly, very.....our old neighborhood looks like a war zone - great job!

[SWMAP]

Cincinnati: exactly how was Louis Miriami a corrupt mayor? I know he went to prison for tax evasion- but that happened after he retired and was not connected to his mayorship. What was he accused of exactly? His administration was never accused of being corrupt. As for racism- he was a product of his time.

[dtowncitylover]

...when CAY told tax paying citizens with pride living in the city where our grandparents grew up to get out, we left quickly, very.....our old neighborhood looks like a war zone - great job!

And when exactly did he say that?

[Drexciya68]

And when exactly did he say that?

All the time. cay made it very clear for almost 20 years what he wanted and his experiment failed from day one.

[Drexciya68]

So what's your point? Do you think things would have been better if STRESS
continued? I don't think so, racial tensions would have reached a boiling point as was the case in 1967. Who was more corrupt than Louis Miriani? and he was a devout racist to boot. The racial divide started with him. Does he get a pass? All poiliticians are corrupt, that's why they're politicians.

Cay was a racist and didn't care who knew it. I will say with 100% certainly that the level of corruption that cay, his family and closet friends [[who he put in high places in Detroit) were MUCH worse any other mayor in recent memory. Cay and his scumball friends sadly did their crimes for almost 20 years. Race relations were getting better before CAY and also across the nation. He made things WORSE. Much worse. Cay's biggest accomplishment was making the surrounding suburbs stronger when people flooded them to get away from the crime, incompetent leadership and lowering standards, morals and class in Detroit.