Bates Garage Demolition. DEGC Proposal

[esp1986]

its not an appealing pedestrian corner right now. it's a long walk across randolph from greektown and despite being near the new bww you dont get a lot of greektown traffic there. it is surrounded by parking structures, parking lots and the waterboard building. you are going to want a lot more foot traffic if your putting in a target and at this point in downtown's development you are going to want to be near where the residential is going in and that is the woodward corridor. in that area you have the broderick, with the whitney not far behind, merchants row, three buildings being redeveloped in capitol park and now what gilbert is doing with his new buildings and residential. you put retail like target near those buildings, not randolph and monroe right now.

That's why the Kresge Building would be perfect...

[cramerro]

its not an appealing pedestrian corner right now. it's a long walk across randolph from greektown and despite being near the new bww you dont get a lot of greektown traffic there. it is surrounded by parking structures, parking lots and the waterboard building. you are going to want a lot more foot traffic if your putting in a target and at this point in downtown's development you are going to want to be near where the residential is going in and that is the woodward corridor. in that area you have the broderick, with the whitney not far behind, merchants row, three buildings being redeveloped in capitol park and now what gilbert is doing with his new buildings and residential. you put retail like target near those buildings, not randolph and monroe right now.

They really need to do something with that intersection for pedestrians. The light sequencing is goofy with the left turn phases and right turn light onto Monroe, and it might be the longest crosswalk without a refuge int he middle in all of downtown [[or at least it seems like it). Maybe Michigan Ave is close. A small landscaped island would work wonders and wouldn't require losing any lanes. Maybe a parking space or two, but no lanes.

[TexasT]

They really need to do something with that intersection for pedestrians. The light sequencing is goofy with the left turn phases and right turn light onto Monroe, and it might be the longest crosswalk without a refuge int he middle in all of downtown [[or at least it seems like it). Maybe Michigan Ave is close. A small landscaped island would work wonders and wouldn't require losing any lanes. Maybe a parking space or two, but no lanes.

EDIT: Nevermind, thinking of a different intersection...

[bassab]

I was told a few months back by someone with specific knowledge of this project that the National Theater was too far gone and would be torn down either as part of this demolition or separately in short order. It was suggested that a complex similar to the layout of the Compuware building/parking deck would be built on the entire space [[main building on Cadillac Square space, parking deck replacing Bates Garage) but I did not understand [[at least at that time) that anyone was committed to building the complex. I have no additional knowledge beyond that but it would be a shame to lose the historic building.

[downtownguy]

They really need to do something with that intersection for pedestrians. The light sequencing is goofy with the left turn phases and right turn light onto Monroe, and it might be the longest crosswalk without a refuge int he middle in all of downtown [[or at least it seems like it). Maybe Michigan Ave is close. A small landscaped island would work wonders and wouldn't require losing any lanes. Maybe a parking space or two, but no lanes.

Because that's not intended to be a pedestrian crosswalk. I think the signs direct pedestrians to cross on the south side of Monroe. But, I agree with you. More consideration should be given to pedestrian traffic, They should find a way to create a safe crosswalk on both sides of Monroe, because people are going to cross anyway, and it more dangerous without a crosswalk. Same goes for one block north on the east side of Randolph at Gratiot and the south side of Jefferson at the tunnel entrance. Do traffic planners really think pedestrians are going to cross Jefferson twice and Randolph once to get from the Ren Cen to Mariner's Church?

[noggin]

It actually would be a great placed for a small traffic circle.

[Gorath]

Do traffic planners really think pedestrians are going to cross Jefferson twice and Randolph once to get from the Ren Cen to Mariner's Church?

Traffic planners don't really think about pedestrians at all. All they think about is 'what is the most efficient way to move cars'. Pedestrians, transit, those are after-thoughts.

[DetroitPlanner]

Traffic planners don't really think about pedestrians at all. All they think about is 'what is the most efficient way to move cars'. Pedestrians, transit, those are after-thoughts.

Who do you think put-in all of the ped count downs signals, wayfinding signs, ADA ramps?

The issue with the Mariner's Church goes back to a time when there were no Casinos in Detroit and everyone was using the tunnel to get to Windsor for their casino. A dedicated lane was established for the tunnel on Jefferson, leaving the sidewalk next to Mariners less than optimal for ADA requirements.

A ped bridge behind the mariners church was approved as a substitute, but it ran into issues when it was discovered that it would have to be raised in order to allow truck traffic. This too ran into ADA issues as the only way you could do this was to install an elevator.

[Detroitdave]

I think with the new BW3 they are going to HAVE to address the pedestrian problem VERY soon.

With people wanting to reach BW3 they are going to cross ANYWHERE! most people aren't going to walk all the way around when they see they BW3 right in front of them and we ALL know this !

On the Target idea . This is a case of "if you build it they WILL come " !
trust me if you build a target on that corner they will make it to that location .

I'd bet 100% you put a Target on that corner it Will be pack , Not even a thought about it .

I really hope they can SAVE THE NATIONAL ! it's a beautiful historical building http://historicdetroit.org/building/national-theatre/
one of the last in Detroit's first theater district .
it's been there since 1911 ! show the old girl some respect :-)

and yes is can and should be saved , if you got the bucks to build something on that block you can and should save that little theater !

SAVE DETROITS HISTORY !

[downtownguy]

I'd bet 100% you put a Target on that corner it Will be pack , Not even a thought about it .

Perhaps, but I agree with the others that would rather see it on Woodward. There it would generate additional walking traffic to the other retail on the block, and be in close proximity to existing residential and offices. Monroe is better suited to restaurants and entertainment. And I don't think the "tourists" coming to Greektown or the casino would be Target's "target." Suburbanites will still shop in their back yard.

[Gistok]

IMHO the interior of much of the National is too far gone for plaster restoration work, much worse than the United Artists Theatre. Back in 2000 Preservation Wayne volunteers must have carted out at least 30 tons of fallen plasterwork. However even thought the plaster shell may be beyond restoration, the building itself is sound, and could be adapted for other reuse... even more modern renovation.

Katherine Clarkson, the late Executive Director of Preservation Wayne [[now Detroit), once suggested that the facade and small Pewabic lined outer lobby could be adaptively reused for some new construction behind it, as a last resort.

[downtownguy]

IMHO the interior of much of the National is too far gone for plaster restoration work, much worse than the United Artists Theatre.

Back when the Michigan Opera Theatre was looking to restore the Grand Circus Theatre, I remember having a conversation with Ray Shepardson, the gentleman who restored the Fox and was being tapped to restore the Grand Circus as well. I asked about all the missing plaster in that theatre and he pretty much scoffed and said plaster can always be replaced. Which they did.

Gistok, how much worse would you say the National is than the Grand Circus back then?

[Gistok]

Back when the Michigan Opera Theatre was looking to restore the Grand Circus Theatre, I remember having a conversation with Ray Shepardson, the gentleman who restored the Fox and was being tapped to restore the Grand Circus as well. I asked about all the missing plaster in that theatre and he pretty much scoffed and said plaster can always be replaced. Which they did.

Gistok, how much worse would you say the National is than the Grand Circus back then?

I was in the Grand Circus Theatre before it was restored [[had no clue what any interior colors were!). The difference with the 2 is that the ruined plaster of the Grand Circus was mostly still in place. In the National the plasterwork has mostly broken off, swept up and discarded. It is MUCH easier [[and cheaper) to make molds of plasterwork that is still in place [[even if it's in bad condition)... than it would be to recreate it from photos.

Ironically that's why the United Artists CAN be restored. Much of the missing plasterwork is from the flat sidewalls [[easy to recreate). And if there are parts missing from one side of the auditoriums... then usually there are still the same plaster designs that still exist in other areas of it. The worst part of the UA was the rotunda lobby... which is 7 sided. all they needed was 1 side that was still relatively intact [[and that's about all that is intact)... and they can recreate the other 6 sides. But so much of the National Theatre's plasterwork is just totally missing... and that would be more expensive to recreate than the Grand Circus... or even UA.

Here's an example [[attached)... the ceiling dome of the Detroit Opera House before/after... at least there was something to work with for replacing the plasterwork...

It can be done... and the plasterwork of the National was nice... but nothing really spectacular. So does the cost justify the means?

[Detroit68]

I have always admired the building directly behind the national [[828 Bates, I believe?), but encroached by the Bates Garage to the north and another modern abomination to the south. Love the gargoyles! Does anyone know the name and history of this building? I would hope it could be saved along with the National.

[gumby]

Both of those buildings are occupied. For this reason I don't believe bassab's annonymous source about a garage for the whole block like the Compuware Garage.

[downtownguy]

The difference with the 2 is that the ruined plaster of the Grand Circus was mostly still in place.

I seem to recall that much of the damage to the Grand Circus was due to a bad roof. My memory's fuzzy, but I could swear I remember looking at the ceiling and seeing big chunks missing and daylight coming through. At some point, again IIRC, somebody put a new roof on it to save it from too much more damage. Do I have that right, Gistok? I guess you're saying they still had more original plaster to work with even though to me it looked hopeless.

[AGinthe313]

My neighbor has intel on the future plans for this site. I think he's on this project in some capacity. I'll try to touch base with him and get back to the board. If I remember correctly, I think he said mixed use retail / parking / residential, but let me validate this.

[gthomas]

My neighbor has intel on the future plans for this site. I think he's on this project in some capacity. I'll try to touch base with him and get back to the board. If I remember correctly, I think he said mixed use retail / parking / residential, but let me validate this.

I hope the plans are for retail, parking, and RESIDENTIAL. I always wanted some type of residential on Monroe, that area gets isolated after 5p...dead zone. Now whats the plans of the National theatre, hopefully it's safe to stay. Now only if Gilbert can hurry up and build something on the Monroe Block already!

[downtownguy]

It depends on the type of residents the residential attracts. Granted, my example goes back a few years, but when I first moved downtown in Trolley Plaza, I was surprised how few of my neighbors I saw on the street. One of the reasons I wanted to be downtown was so I could walk to so many places. Now, this was in the 80s, but what I noticed was the middle aged professionals that were the first ones to move into Trolley liked parking inside their residence and they didn't venture out too much. Then when Riverfront Apartments [[totally isolated) and Millender Center [[a bit older and wealthier than the Trolley residents) were built, there still wasn't much added street life. Only several years later when I opened a business on Woodward did I notice the real downtown walkers came from Lafayette Park. Many of these folks had lived downtown for years, were accustomed to city life and enjoyed its walkability. So, if they were to build high income residential on the Monroe block, I'm not so sure you would see a lot of extra street life. In the last decade, most of the folks I see walking after hours are younger people, probably with decent incomes, but maybe not at the high income level. I'd be curious to see what the demographic of the Broderick tower was and if those folks are outside much.

[begingri]

I hope the plans are for retail, parking, and RESIDENTIAL. I always wanted some type of residential on Monroe, that area gets isolated after 5p...dead zone. Now whats the plans of the National theatre, hopefully it's safe to stay. Now only if Gilbert can hurry up and build something on the Monroe Block already!

Speaking of development on the Monroe Block, anyone think there is any chance this will be resurrected? Ha.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadillac_Centre

[gthomas]

Speaking of development on the Monroe Block, anyone think there is any chance this will be resurrected? Ha.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadillac_Centre

According to some sources, it's a ""dressed-up parking garage" by DEGC President George Jackson." I can agree lol we need something more modern and innovative on the Monroe Block, whatever's there needs to be better than the other Campus Martius buildings..and much taller..like 50-60 story. Something like this:

[Gistok]

I seem to recall that much of the damage to the Grand Circus was due to a bad roof. My memory's fuzzy, but I could swear I remember looking at the ceiling and seeing big chunks missing and daylight coming through. At some point, again IIRC, somebody put a new roof on it to save it from too much more damage. Do I have that right, Gistok? I guess you're saying they still had more original plaster to work with even though to me it looked hopeless.

You might have been thinking of the UA... I remember how dark it was at the Grand Circus... but there could have been a hole in the roof somewhere... can't remember...

[southen]

It depends on the type of residents the residential attracts. Granted, my example goes back a few years, but when I first moved downtown in Trolley Plaza, I was surprised how few of my neighbors I saw on the street. One of the reasons I wanted to be downtown was so I could walk to so many places. Now, this was in the 80s, but what I noticed was the middle aged professionals that were the first ones to move into Trolley liked parking inside their residence and they didn't venture out too much. Then when Riverfront Apartments [[totally isolated) and Millender Center [[a bit older and wealthier than the Trolley residents) were built, there still wasn't much added street life. Only several years later when I opened a business on Woodward did I notice the real downtown walkers came from Lafayette Park. Many of these folks had lived downtown for years, were accustomed to city life and enjoyed its walkability. So, if they were to build high income residential on the Monroe block, I'm not so sure you would see a lot of extra street life. In the last decade, most of the folks I see walking after hours are younger people, probably with decent incomes, but maybe not at the high income level. I'd be curious to see what the demographic of the Broderick tower was and if those folks are outside much.

i have only been living downtown [[lafayette park) since may and i was born in 1986, so i have no way to give a first hand experience, but do you think things have changed downtown since then? even in just the last 5-10 years since i started following development downtown it seems like people are much more interested in downtown residential and walkable neighborhoods. i have to believe that if residential was placed on the bates site as well as monroe block [[for me a must) that you would see many more people walking around and bringing life to the area. the woodward, campus martius, broadway, harmonie park area really seems to be hitting a critical mass. i think you are going to continue to see announcements and developments happen in this area and i think it will be in part due to a more adventurous urban dweller.

[gnome]

If I was God I would think that until Capital Park, Harmonie Park and GCP are solid, any new building is a waste of time, money and effort.

the one thing Detroit has suffered from is ADHD. It jumps from one area to another before the first area is done. This habit goes back centuries and has proven to be a poor choice.

In the last couple of years there have been progressive strides made in the above mentioned areas, they have everything necessary to become true Meccas of culture and commerce.

Spending our limited resources dilutes their effectiveness when spread over several different areas of the city. Those three places are the best areas that are almost ready to explode and fulfill their potential.

of course, not everyone believes in God.

[downtownguy]

i have only been living downtown [[lafayette park) since may and i was born in 1986, so i have no way to give a first hand experience, but do you think things have changed downtown since then? even in just the last 5-10 years since i started following development downtown it seems like people are much more interested in downtown residential and walkable neighborhoods. i have to believe that if residential was placed on the bates site as well as monroe block [[for me a must) that you would see many more people walking around and bringing life to the area. the woodward, campus martius, broadway, harmonie park area really seems to be hitting a critical mass. i think you are going to continue to see announcements and developments happen in this area and i think it will be in part due to a more adventurous urban dweller.

Southen, thanks for referencing the year you were born. That was 5 years after I moved downtown. I think I'll change my screen name to olddowntownguy. lol

To answer your question about change, yes and no. There was far more retail in the 80s. Even after Hudson's closed, Woodward retail hung on for several years. I'm guessing the number of workers downtown in the 80s might even exceed where we are today, but that's just a guess. The greatest activity was around the financial district and as you moved north, it faded.

Trolley opened in 1981 and it filled up immediately. After a year or two, the novelty wore off and there was a lot of turnover. At the same time Riverfront Apartments were opening. I didn't plan to move, but I set up an appointment to view them when they were still under construction and to satisfy my curiosity. The leasing agent was clueless. I asked how they were marketing the units. She said they were almost exclusively marketing to the upscale suburbs: Birmingham, Bloomfield and the Grosse Pointes. Come again? She insisted that was their market. I suggested they might be better off attracting folks from upscale Detroit neighborhoods like Rosedale Park, the University District, Green Acres, etc. They never got the suburbanites like they expected and eventually city folk moved in. When Millender Center opened, a lot of Trolley residents moved there because it was more "upscale." Mostly, that came from fancier door knockers and higher rents, so I chose to stay at Trolley. I was in my late 20s at the time, and I was probably about 10 or 15 years under the average age of tenants in these buildings. Many worked in the city, but not downtown. So they drove into their attached garages at the end of the day and didn't go out on the streets. Obviously, some worked downtown and did walk to their offices, but it didn't add up to much.

I think the new apartments coming on line and the younger workforce downtown combined with many new restaurants and entertainment options definitely will add to street life. You also need the proper mindset. The Milner is now slated to be upgraded to upscale apartments. That likely means an older demographic. Will these folks adapt to walking a few blocks to the local bodega for food? Or, will they still shop at Kroger when they're in the burbs? After one year of having to cross the street to get to their car in the Opera garage and having to deal with the sports, theatres and general weekend entertainment congestion, will they poop out? Or, will they adapt to and embrace a true urban lifestyle, walk more and drive less? I don't know. There is no doubt that the more residential there is, the more an active streetlife will come of it. And you're right, there is more interest in living downtown now than I ever recall. When I moved into Trolley, people asked if I was crazy. Eventually, sometime around the turn of the century, people started telling me they thought it was cool to live downtown.

There is no doubt that downtown is experiencing some good mojo these days. I'm excited about it's future. When I first started living downtown, I came to the realization that it would take a full generation for many of the prejudices against the city to get flushed out before any significant change could happen, and here we are. Improved, but far from perfect.

But I still think it will be some years before you get close to the type of streetlife that is so common in New York, Chicago or Toronto. I would say that more young workers like the type Quicken is bringing down will do more for this than residential, especially high-end residential. But it all adds up. And that's what makes a city living exciting. There's never a dull moment.