Anyone pissed the Michigan Land Bank is going to sell the State Fairgrounds for a $1?

[Baselinepunk]

"How you can claim to know what an entire city means is beyond me, but hey, generalize away." --- leapfrog

Because they are from Birmingham; that bastion of intellectual wealth where the residents, if they feel in the mood, will distribute sprigs of solutions upon the poorer areas of the region ... but only if you say please.

Personally, I think that folks from Birmingham have a real bad complex being Bloomfield Hill's bitch. A lot of people in Birmingham don't realize that the people to the north of them talk behind their backs at their cocktail parties and think they smell bad. Why, I was just hearing a conversation from a friend of a friend about one couple from Birmingham actually being the dogs in a dog fight party -- and hands down won! Boy, what a hoot that must have been.

I've overhead conversations from Bloomies about how when Jacobson's folded it was the end of Birmingham. All of the Bloomies favorite memories of going to Jacboson's to sit on Santa's lap at Christmas .... they all shed a tear over the day they had to flee for their lives when Creem magizine opened up shop within the city limits. Some Bloomie still cry themselves to sleep over that.

[Bham1982]

Your analysis has no merit. If it did, why would Gateway be building a $72m plaza with a Meijer's, Marshalls and other tenants signed up next door if it's in a warzone? Does that make any sense?

Yes, it does make sense, because you're paying for it. The shopping plaza is only being built because of state subsidies. It would never exist in a market context.

And I never said that no one would shop in this location; only that Oakland County's proximity wouldn't matter in terms of market penetration.

The fairgrounds is not a warzone. Why is there so much interest in it if it
where? There are three proposals of interest, not just one.

Well that settles it. Obviously if there are people looking for state subsidies, this must be a high-value neighborhood. Clearly the two issues are related [[/sarcasm).

Drive down any side street in that area, and you will see utter devastation. There are probably few neighborhoods in the U.S. with comparable blight and disinvestment.

[davewindsor]

The claim was made by another poster that "It borders Ferndale, Oakland County, where people who have money live and it's designed for those customers. If there's a robbery at this plaza, how much are you willing to bet that the police from Oakland would be there in an instant?"

So the fact that some Ferndale resident "cares" about the Fairgrounds is cute but completely irrelevant to the point we were discussing.

So, you say that Ferndale doesn't care about what happens outside their jurisdiction? What about this report from a couple months ago where a Detroit man was spotted near Woodward and 8 mile in a stolen car from the City of Detroit used in an armed robbery in Detroit. Ferndale police pursue him in the City of Detroit. He bails from the car and runs off on foot. They continue to pursue. Then Ferndale police finds him a short while later at 8 mile near Woodward and take him into custody. If Ferndale Police doesn't care about robberies that take place just outside of Ferndale, why didn't they give up the pursuit? Why did Ferndale Police arrest a Detroit man who committed a crime in Detroit?

http://ferndale.patch.com/articles/f...ith-stolen-car
Ferndale Police Arrest Fleeing Suspect with Stolen Car

Sept. 23/12 The suspect reportedly jumped out of the moving vehicle and fled on foot before being arrested on Eight Mile near Woodward, police said.


Ferndale Police arrested a 21-year-old man early Monday morning after a high-speed chase that led into Detroit.
Around 4 a.m. Monday, a Ferndale Police officer saw a Pontiac G6 near Woodward and Eight Mile Road and checked the license plate of the vehicle. The car had been reported stolen out of Detroit on Sept. 4 from an armed robbery, according to a news release from police.
As the officer attempted to stop the vehicle, the driver drove into a neighborhood in Detroit onto Wellesley Street and then fled at high speeds through the neighborhood. The suspect then bailed out of the moving car and ran on foot, police said. The car crashed into a tree and the suspect fled on foot.
A short time later, officers found him walking on Eight Mile near Woodward and arrested him. The suspect is a 21-year-old resident of Detroit, according to police.
The case is currently being reviewed by the Oakland County Prosecutor’s Office for a determination of charges.

[Bham1982]

Personally, I think that folks from Birmingham have a real bad complex being Bloomfield Hill's bitch. A lot of people in Birmingham don't realize that the people to the north of them talk behind their backs at their cocktail parties and think they smell bad.

Well I grew up in Bloomfield, so guess I'm slumming. I don't particularly love either community, not that it matters. On a per square foot basis, Bloomfield is dirt cheap compared to Bham, but homes are a lot bigger in Bloomfield, and incomes are somewhat higher.

Baseline, my point is that proximity doesn't automatically lead to viable market conditions. 8 Mile is still a huge economic and social barrier, and folks in South Oakland aren't shopping in Detroit neighborhoods. Maybe you think there's some new paradigm where everything changes now, but I wouldn't bet on it.

For whatever reason, many people in this part of the metro tend to shop/consume north of where they live. NW Detroit residents are huge Southfield shoppers, Southfield residents are big Beverly Hills/West Bloomfield shoppers and so on. I don't think this will change. Ferndale, in particular, despite the hipster reputation, is mostly an old-line working class town, and they aren't shopping in the hood. If they want Meijer there's one in Royal Oak.

[davewindsor]

Yes, it does make sense, because you're paying for it. The shopping plaza is only being built because of state subsidies. It would never exist in a market context.

Are you saying that AAA tenants such as Meijer's, Marshalls, the Superstore, etc. are all subsidized by the State of Michigan and that's why they are moving there? WHY WOULD THEY GET THESE KINDS OF TENANTS IF IT WAS A WARZONE??? IT MAKES NO SENSE!!! If that logic had any merit, why wouldn't Meijer's stick a store near downtown Detroit or anywhere else in the city? NO AMOUNT OF SUBSIDY WOULD GET A MEIJER'S STORE IN DOWNTOWN. I guarantee it!!

[Bham1982]

Ferndale Police arrested a 21-year-old man early Monday morning after a high-speed chase that led into Detroit.

This happens all the time, and isn't what we're talking about.

Police officers are always chasing suspects into other jurisdictions. They obviously don't call off the chase at the municipal line.

But they don't go into other jurisidctions to prevent potential crimes. They're only acting on crimes committed within their jurisdiction.

I bet you Ferndale police are trailing suspects into Detroit on a fairly frequent basis. There's a reason property values are much lower in South Ferndale compared to North Ferndale.

[Bham1982]

Are you saying that AAA tenants such as Meijer's, Marshalls, the Superstore, etc. are all subsidized by the State of Michigan and that's why they are moving there?

Indirectly, yes, absolutely. The direct subsidies flow to the developer, who then offers extremely favorable leases.

WHY WOULD THEY GET THESE KINDS OF TENANTS IF IT WAS A WARZONE??? IT MAKES NO SENSE!!!

People in Detroit are normal people, like anywhere else. They use toothpaste, mustard, batteries, etc. There may be a market for new retail in this area.
But that doesn't mean the neighborhood isn't absolutely horrible, and that the shopping center could never be financed without taxpayer support.

Take a look around anything North of 7 and East of Woodward on Google Streetview. I challenge you to find a more horrifically depopulated area in the U.S. [[and these pics are a few years old; you should see it now).

[Shollin]

"How you can claim to know what an entire city means is beyond me, but hey, generalize away." --- leapfrog

Because they are from Birmingham; that bastion of intellectual wealth where the residents, if they feel in the mood, will distribute sprigs of solutions upon the poorer areas of the region ... but only if you say please.

Personally, I think that folks from Birmingham have a real bad complex being Bloomfield Hill's bitch. A lot of people in Birmingham don't realize that the people to the north of them talk behind their backs at their cocktail parties and think they smell bad. Why, I was just hearing a conversation from a friend of a friend about one couple from Birmingham actually being the dogs in a dog fight party -- and hands down won! Boy, what a hoot that must have been.

I've overhead conversations from Bloomies about how when Jacobson's folded it was the end of Birmingham. All of the Bloomies favorite memories of going to Jacboson's to sit on Santa's lap at Christmas .... they all shed a tear over the day they had to flee for their lives when Creem magizine opened up shop within the city limits. Some Bloomie still cry themselves to sleep over that.

I don't think people in Bloomfield are crying themselves to sleep over anything moving to Detroit. I'm doubt they'll exchange their low crime, good schools, clean streets and functioning street lights for anything in Detroit

[davewindsor]

This happens all the time, and isn't what we're talking about.

Police officers are always chasing suspects into other jurisdictions. They obviously don't call off the chase at the municipal line.

But they don't go into other jurisidctions to prevent potential crimes. They're only acting on crimes committed within their jurisdiction.

I bet you Ferndale police are trailing suspects into Detroit on a fairly frequent basis. There's a reason property values are much lower in South Ferndale compared to North Ferndale.

I never said they go into other jurisdictions to "prevent potential crimes". I said if there was robbery at 8 mile. If someone calls 911 that PNC Bank at Gateway Marketplace is being robbed and a Ferndale cruiser is a block away, you're saying that Ferndale Police is going to say, who cares it's not my jurisdiction and i'm not going to assist?

Why did Ferndale police purse a Detroit man in a stolen car from the City of Detroit in the City of Detroit and arrest him at 8 mile? What crime was committed in Ferndale's jurisdiction? The car was stolen in the City of Detroit.

[JVB]

It's not based on some random appraisals, it's based on the reality that even land in Detroit is worth something more than $1. The only land that would legally be considered worthless is a property that's contaminated and where the clean-up costs would exceed any feasible re-use of the property after clean-up. That's not the case here.

What? There is no "legal" requirement that land be worth something. Land is worth whatever someone is willing to pay for it, period.

Still waiting to hear what justifies the state giving away land for next to nothing for some half-baked development scheme that does little or nothing for that part of Detroit.

If they own the land, they can sell it whoever they want to sell it to for whatever they want to sell it for. Apparently they think the tradeoff in selling price will be more than met by getting that land on the tax rolls sooner rather than later. A Meijer's won't change the neighborhood, but it will bring in tax dollars.

[JVB]

I never said they go into other jurisdictions to "prevent potential crimes". I said if there was robbery at 8 mile. If someone calls 911 that PNC Bank at Gateway Marketplace is being robbed and a Ferndale cruiser is a block away, you're saying that Ferndale Police is going to say, who cares it's not my jurisdiction and i'm not going to assist?

Why did Ferndale police purse a Detroit man in a stolen car from the City of Detroit in the City of Detroit and arrest him at 8 mile? What crime was committed in Ferndale's jurisdiction? The car was stolen in the City of Detroit.

Dave, Ferndale police patrol 8 Mile and if they see a stolen car they're going to pursue. However, they are not going to be providing security for the stores and people on the Detroit side of 8 mile. They never have, why would they start now?

[davewindsor]

Indirectly, yes, absolutely. The direct subsidies flow to the developer, who then offers extremely favorable leases.



People in Detroit are normal people, like anywhere else. They use toothpaste, mustard, batteries, etc. There may be a market for new retail in this area.
But that doesn't mean the neighborhood isn't absolutely horrible, and that the shopping center could never be financed without taxpayer support.

Take a look around anything North of 7 and East of Woodward on Google Streetview. I challenge you to find a more horrifically depopulated area in the U.S. [[and these pics are a few years old; you should see it now).

Complete nonsense. Why is it being built at 8 mile instead of downtown or anywhere else in the city? Because the land is much better value. Regardless of whether Detroiters are normal people, there hasn't been a major retailer in the city for decades, aside from maybe Home Depot which doesn't sell personal items. There's a good reason for it and why it's at the border of Detroit and Ferndale. And I repeat, no amount of subsidies will get a Meijer's in downtown.

I don't care about the rest of 7 mile and neither do the major retailers. The land bordering 8 mile and Woodward is valuable land and that's why they want it and why three proposals were presented when anywhere else in the city they would be happy to get just one proposal.

[JVB]

Complete nonsense. Why is it being built at 8 mile instead of downtown or anywhere else in the city? Because the land is much better value. Regardless of whether Detroiters are normal people, there hasn't been a major retailer in the city for decades, aside from maybe Home Depot which doesn't sell personal items. There's a good reason for it and why it's at the border of Detroit and Ferndale. And I repeat, no amount of subsidies will get a Meijer's in downtown.

I don't care about the rest of 7 mile and neither do the major retailers. The land bordering 8 mile and Woodward is valuable land and that's why they want it and why three proposals were presented when anywhere else in the city they would be happy to get just one proposal.

Even the Ferndale side of 8 Mile doesn't have shit, so I don't know why you think it's so valuable. Unless you count the hooker hotels on the Ferndale side of 8 Mile and Woodward. Real value there...

[davewindsor]

Dave, Ferndale police patrol 8 Mile and if they see a stolen car they're going to pursue. However, they are not going to be providing security for the stores and people on the Detroit side of 8 mile. They never have, why would they start now?

Of course they never have; the Gateway Marketplace isn't finished yet. If an armed robbery happens seconds away, it's the right thing to do for Ferndale Police to help out their neighbours if Detroit Police isn't nearby. It's called having a conscience. But, of course, doing the right thing has no meaning to you.

[davewindsor]

Even the Ferndale side of 8 Mile doesn't have shit, so I don't know why you think it's so valuable. Unless you count the hooker hotels on the Ferndale side of 8 Mile and Woodward. Real value there...

I guess you know all about the hooker hotels, huh?

[JVB]

I guess you know all about the hooker hotels, huh?

Everyone in the area knows about them. They're hard to see from Windsor though - kinda like the war zone behind the Meijer's...

Of course they never have; the Gateway Marketplace isn't finished yet. If an armed robbery happens seconds away, it's the right thing to do for Ferndale Police to help out their neighbours if Detroit Police isn't nearby. It's called having a conscience. But, of course, doing the right thing has no meaning to you.

You expect the Ferndale police to start having a "conscience" about crime in Detroit? lol

[poobert]

Complete nonsense. Why is it being built at 8 mile instead of downtown or anywhere else in the city? Because the land is much better value. Regardless of whether Detroiters are normal people, there hasn't been a major retailer in the city for decades, aside from maybe Home Depot which doesn't sell personal items. There's a good reason for it and why it's at the border of Detroit and Ferndale. And I repeat, no amount of subsidies will get a Meijer's in downtown.

I don't care about the rest of 7 mile and neither do the major retailers. The land bordering 8 mile and Woodward is valuable land and that's why they want it and why three proposals were presented when anywhere else in the city they would be happy to get just one proposal.

There's been a K-Mart at 7mile and Telegraph for as long as I can remember.

[Hermod]

I guess you know all about the hooker hotels, huh?

$30 a night, hourly rates available. Check in for sin!

[davewindsor]

Everyone in the area knows about them. They're hard to see from Windsor though - kinda like the war zone behind the Meijer's...

Sure, this area is just the butthole of metro's lawlessness. I guess Meijer, Marshalls, the Superstore, etc are completely blind to the area too and that's why they're investing millions of their own money to operate in that area. Thank-you for your profound thoughts of wisdom, o' wise one.

You expect the Ferndale police to start having a "conscience" about crime in Detroit? lol

Yes. But, I can guess your view of policing is that it's just about a paycheck for police. Putting their hours in and writing traffic tickets when they've had a bad day. Police care about nothing else except drinking coffee and eating donuts at the coffee shop trying to pass time until their shift is over. Does that pretty much sum up your view of police?

[davewindsor]

There's been a K-Mart at 7mile and Telegraph for as long as I can remember.

You mean W 8 mile and Telegraph. Mapquest "19990 Telegraph Rd." There's some trees between the K-mart and 8 mile--nothing else; whereas there's a bunch of subdivisions of houses between K-mart and 7 mile. It's about as far from 8 mile as the west side of Michigan Fairgrounds.

[JVB]

Yes. But, I can guess your view of policing is that it's just about a paycheck for police. Putting their hours in and writing traffic tickets when they've had a bad day. Police care about nothing else except drinking coffee and eating donuts at the coffee shop trying to pass time until their shift is over. Does that pretty much sum up your view of police?

Um...Ferndale has bordered Detroit for my entire life, and long before I was born for that matter. They don't patrol Detroit - it's not their jurisdiction. I know you would like to think that a new store will somehow change all of that, but it won't.

I'm not laughing at the thought of police [[or some Ferndale residents) having a conscience and "caring" about Detroit, I'm laughing at the thought of their conscience overriding their jurisdiction. It's just not going to happen.

[mwilbert]

The Ferndale Police aren't any closer to the Fairgrounds area then the police at the 12th precinct station. I suspect that not only will there be a fair bit of private security [[as there is at any decent size shopping center) but that the Detroit police will prioritize any disturbances there.

Unless something very odd happens, the Ferndale police will be able to remain in Ferndale.

[detroitsgwenivere]

OK Let me, who has spent a considerable amount of my adult life in the neighborhood directly adjacent to this property, inject some fodder into this conversation:

Hazel Park and Ferndale police regularly travel southbound into the John R Heights No. 1 Plats [[http://goo.gl/maps/77EWB), otherwise known as "X-Files," to pursue suspicious vehicles and individuals on foot. However, I've rarely ever seen them cross State Fair st. into State Fair Plats[[http://goo.gl/maps/ga8RJ), otherwise known to the neighbors as "Little Beiruit."

Both of these hoods have been in the crosshairs of developers since the 80's, with property owners having been approached by investors on several occasions in person and in writing with cash offers for homes and businesses. Some took them and ran, others thought they could get more down the road. And they would have had the police not FIREBOMBED a quarter of the neighborhood, had the d-boys babymommas not burned out a quarter of them in fits of jealousy over transgressions, and had the foreclosure crisis not been responsible for decimating a quarter, leaving homes that had been previously occupied to the scrappers and property managers committing various acts of incendiary removal techniques. The quarter of homes that are left are owned either by people like my boyfriends mom, been there forever, or by suburban slumlords.

The only reason these areas were never redeveloped back in the 90's and 2000's was because the pimps and trappers had this area ON LOCK. The patrolmen were afraid to come in or get out of their cars to deal with anything more than harassing easy targets. Every two weeks before the yearly fair commenced, the" jumpout boys" [[black unmarked police cars) would chase down and round up the corner keepers and sex offenders while the raid vans would break down the doors of the trapper keepers and captain hooks[[dopehouse guys and pimps). But of course they always left the hookers, no point in picking them up if they will be back out in a few hours. As soon as the fair was over, all the *ssholes would get released and be right back at it again, and the police would drive by without as much as a blink or stare.

A year ago I started a thread about some bullshit I ran into with gangsquad. Since that incident, my boyfriend and i have had a combined 6 interactions with police in that hood. Remind you, the good for nothin 11th precinct would only step foot in the area if they had the raid van or if they were getting BJs from the pirate hookers on the backstreets. Now we cant get rid of these MFs. It would seem like a reasonable conclusion that the escalation in police presence is because of the development on the other side of the traintracks.

I also have no doubt that as soon as the Meijer's takes off, and the plans for the rest of the property are cemented, X-Files and Little Beiruit will be staring down the barrel of a bulldozer. The area is too big of a detriment to plans such as those we are discussing for the Fairgrounds. The conflicts between the trappers and the speculators have already started this past summer, resulting in a suburban man being walked out of the hood at gun point and a large fistfight between rival d-boys that are now forced to slang off the same block because they're running out of realestate to set up shop in.

The folks living in the quarter of homes that are left are very aware of the proposed developments, they are just left out of the conversation about them, their marginalization a punishment for being poor and living in what has literally become a cystic environment.

[Richard]

So I guess due to the shrinking city aspect the trapper keepers and captain hooks can now find suitable accommodations in Corktown ,Midtown and the burbs.

[detroitsgwenivere]

So I guess due to the shrinking city aspect the trapper keepers and captain hooks can now find suitable accommodations in Corktown ,Midtown and the burbs.

Let's pray that they don't. I wouldnt wish this bullshit on anyone's neighborhood.