Anyone pissed the Michigan Land Bank is going to sell the State Fairgrounds for a $1?

[davewindsor]

Sort of...keeping in mind that there's plenty of cheap real estate out there.

And how much of that cheap real estate is next to a major anchor like a Meijer store? Show me one in the City of Detroit. Just one.

[davewindsor]

I'm not privy to what their security plans are, I'm just telling you Ferndale has never given a shit what happens across 8 Mile so I don't know why they would start now. And the area is completely fucked, but 8/Woodward sees a ton of traffic so they think they can make it work. Good for them and I wish them the best of luck, but none of the other commercial development on 8 Mile [[Bel-Air for instance) has attracted suburban shoppers so I'm not holding my breath. It'll be better than what's there now, which is nothing. But I don't expect it to transform the area anymore than any of the other commercial development along 8 mile has helped improve the neighborhoods near them [[which is to say, not at all).

Really, so what about the other two proposals? There were three proposals: three groups who where willing to put their money where their mouth was who thought otherwise, yet two were rejected and Magic's proposal for $1 gets fast tracked. How come the public has not heard the details of the other two? You can hold or not hold your breath all you want, but it still doesn't answer why Meijer would put their store next door instead of anywhere else in the city if the area is completely, as you say, f-cked.

[JVB]

Really, so what about the other two proposals? There were three proposals: three groups who where willing to put their money where their mouth was who thought otherwise, yet two were rejected and Magic's proposal for $1 gets fast tracked. How come the public has not heard the details of the other two? You can hold or not hold your breath all you want, but it still doesn't answer why Meijer would put their store next door instead of anywhere else in the city if the area is completely, as you say, f-cked.

We can argue about this all night or you can go take a drive down State Fair behind the proposed site and have a look for yourself. I don't know anything about the other 2 proposals or why the crooks in City Council fast-tracked Magic's plan, but it doesn't matter because a fucking Meijer's isn't going to save that area.

[Richard]

Maybe connected to Mr Gilbert had something to do with it,he did figure out how to collect 200 mil maybe he is mentoring and spreading the love.

[Richard]

We can argue about this all night or you can go take a drive down State Fair behind the proposed site and have a look for yourself. I don't know anything about the other 2 proposals or why the crooks in City Council fast-tracked Magic's plan, but it doesn't matter because a fucking Meijer's isn't going to save that area.

The point is that they are not going to save the area ,it is that they are there for a reason and not by chance this has had to been in the works and proably promises were made on the direction the erea was going.still not looking at the big picture.

[davewindsor]

We can argue about this all night or you can go take a drive down State Fair behind the proposed site and have a look for yourself. I don't know anything about the other 2 proposals or why the crooks in City Council fast-tracked Magic's plan, but it doesn't matter because a fucking Meijer's isn't going to save that area.

You're still missing the point. Anchor stores like Meijer's are what saves an area. If you take a mall with an anchor store and 30 small stores and that anchor leaves, how many of those small stores do you think will go under? Probably all of them. I've seen it time and time again where malls lost their anchors and all the little stores went under and the whole mall went bankrupt. The same is true for plazas or any other commercial district. When Hudson's shuttered in downtown, guess what happened to all those small commercial stores around it? Bankrupt. An anchor store is a make or break for a whole commercial district.

It's one thing if Magic bought land around an area without an anchor. It's completely another when he buys it next to a major anchor for $1.

[JVB]

The point is that they are not going to save the area ,it is that they are there for a reason and not by chance this has had to been in the works and proably promises were made on the direction the erea was going.still not looking at the big picture.

Possibly. Or maybe there is so much in promised tax credits and grants that the developers can't lose money. I don't know enough about the proposals to be honest, but I do know a lot about that area which is why I'm not holding my breath.

Like I said, it's certainly better than what's there now so I'll be happy to see it developed. It's a bit like taking a car with no engine or transmission in it and fixing a dent in the fender. It's a start, but it ain't gonna get us where we need to go.

[detroitbob]

Surprised that the land didn't revert back to the J. L. Hudson heirs...as the original JLH supposedly donated it for use as a fairground. Does anyone know more about this?

[leapfrog]

I'm not privy to what their security plans are, I'm just telling you Ferndale has never given a shit what happens across 8 Mile so I don't know why they would start now. And the area is completely fucked, but 8/Woodward sees a ton of traffic so they think they can make it work. Good for them and I wish them the best of luck, but none of the other commercial development on 8 Mile [[Bel-Air for instance) has attracted suburban shoppers so I'm not holding my breath. It'll be better than what's there now, which is nothing. But I don't expect it to transform the area anymore than any of the other commercial development along 8 mile has helped improve the neighborhoods near them [[which is to say, not at all).

what exactly would you have Ferndale do?
As I resident of that fair city, I can tell you that we are most definitely involved and concerned about that happens to the former fairgrounds.

[Honky Tonk]

You're still missing the point. Anchor stores like Meijer's are what saves an area. If you take a mall with an anchor store and 30 small stores and that anchor leaves, how many of those small stores do you think will go under? Probably all of them. I've seen it time and time again where malls lost their anchors and all the little stores went under and the whole mall went bankrupt. The same is true for plazas or any other commercial district. When Hudson's shuttered in downtown, guess what happened to all those small commercial stores around it? Bankrupt. An anchor store is a make or break for a whole commercial district.

It's one thing if Magic bought land around an area without an anchor. It's completely another when he buys it next to a major anchor for $1.

Going by your explaination, since Hudson's WAS the anchor, what happened to it? The downtown area was sliding down way before Hudsons closed. Other Hudson's stayed open for years after the downtown store closed.

[davewindsor]

Going by your explaination, since Hudson's WAS the anchor, what happened to it? The downtown area was sliding down way before Hudsons closed. Other Hudson's stayed open for years after the downtown store closed.

What happened to Hudson's was the result of a corrupt and incompetent Detroit mayor.

An anchor store can come and go as they please. But the effect they have on the surrounding commercial district is tremendous. Hudson's leaving was the kiss of death for downtown. Once Hudson's was gone, no one had any reason to go to downtown anymore and what was left of the small shops along streets like Woodward went under.

Same thing happened with downtown Windsor and many other downtowns. Downtown Windsor lost their last major anchor--Canada Tire by the new bus terminal which moved down to Tecumseh Rd--and now most of the former retail shops in downtown have for lease signs or where turned into nightclubs.

Something similar happened in the multi storey Eaton's Center mall in downtown London Ontario. Eaton's [[the major anchor) in Eaton's Centre closed and all the shops [[around 40 I believe) went under. They later managed to rent the whole area out as offices with the help of a new farmer's market next door.

Same thing with the Kitchener's multi-storey King Center Mall in downtown Kitchener Ontario. Sear's left and all the retail shops in the mall went under. It went on foreclosure with a huge parking garage for a million and a half [[which cost over $28m to build a couple decades ago) and some smart entrepreneurs bought it and turned it into office space making a killing. The successful malls in Kitchener like Fairview Park Mall are all along the outskirts of the city. The successful malls in London are outside of downtown near the outskirts a lot closer to the 401. Same with Windsor. Devonshire Mall and the Walker Road Power Center--outskirts and closer to the 401.

You can google examples of almost empty malls in Metro Detroit that lost their anchors. The same things happens over and over again everywhere. The anchor stores can make or break an entire commercial district.

[Novine]

If this is being handled by the State Land Bank, the Detroit City Council shouldn't have any direct involvement in this, which makes sense since the state owns the land, not the city. Those blaming the City Council for this sweetheart deal are blaming the wrong parties, this is from the Snyder administration.

JVB - By your own words, you tell us that this development won't do anything for the area. If that's the case, why should the state be giving the land away for nothing? Let the developer pay the current market price, which is way more than $1, and let them sink or swim on their own finances. Quit supporting taxpayers subsidies for private development.

[Bham1982]

I'm not trying to be a dick, but perhaps you're not understanding how markets work. If the land was worth more than $1, it would have sold for more than $1.

It isn't a market transaction. Just because it sold for $1 doesn't mean that's the present land value.

I don't think this tract is worth anything close to $13 million, and I can't think of too many viable uses, but you certainly can't come to definitive conclusions based on the sales price.

[Bham1982]

Not only that, this land touches 8 mile. It's not in the middle of a warzone like Hantz Farms. It borders Ferndale, Oakland County, where people who have money live and it's designed for those customers. If there's a robbery at this plaza, how much are you willing to bet that the police from Oakland would be there in an instant?

I suggest you take a drive around this area. It is a war zone, and it might as well be a million miles from Oakland County.

In any case, no one from Oakland County is going to be shopping in this area. It's analagous to the East Side badlands close to the Pointes, or South Pontiac close to Bloomfield. Proximity is essentially meaningless when analyzing potential retail customers in these types of locations.

And why would Oakland County police patrol this center? That makes no sense. Ferndale Police are already massively shorthanded. Are they even allowed to patrol in other jurisdictions?

[Baselinepunk]

Ummm ... I don't speak for all of Ferndale but I'm pretty sure that "Ferndale" does give a fuck about what happens south of 8 mile. And very much so at that. At least the many, many folks in my area Ferndale do give a fuck, and we're not alone but I'm sure that there's some grumpies out there like this Wesley, and B'ham folks.

"I suggest you take a drive around this area. It is a war zone, and it might as well be a million miles from Oakland County."

Sherwood Forest is a war zone? Ferndale and Green Acres, too?

Me thinks you need to focus that hasty generalization.

The Gateway development has been big news in our area. Having something this close is an asset.

I think the rest of the development should be sold at fair market value; however, we all know that if that was the case this land would not be developed. I hope that if this goes forward that care is taken with as much of the historic integrity as possible. Folding in the old with the new makes a lot of sense on a lot of levels.

[Bham1982]

Ummm ... I don't speak for all of Ferndale but I'm pretty sure that "Ferndale" does give a fuck about what happens south of 8 mile. And very much so at that. At least the many, many folks in my area Ferndale do give a fuck, and we're not alone but I'm sure that there's some grumpies out there like this Wesley, and B'ham folks.

Thanks for sharing, but I didn't say whether folks "give a f--k" about Detroit; I said they aren't shopping in the badlands around John R/7Mile, and the Ferndale Police aren't going to be patrolling.

"I suggest you take a drive around this area. It is a war zone, and it might as well be a million miles from Oakland County."
Sherwood Forest is a war zone? Ferndale and Green Acres, too?

Me thinks you need to focus that hasty generalization.

Sherwood Forest and Ferndale and Green Acres are quite close, but couldn't be more different. That's exactly my point. If these neighborhoods have such a positive impact based on their mere proximity, why is the neighborhood so bad?

East of Woodward, between HP and 8 Mile, is one of the worst neighborhoods anywhere in Detroit. It's horrible.

[davewindsor]

I suggest you take a drive around this area. It is a war zone, and it might as well be a million miles from Oakland County.

In any case, no one from Oakland County is going to be shopping in this area. It's analagous to the East Side badlands close to the Pointes, or South Pontiac close to Bloomfield. Proximity is essentially meaningless when analyzing potential retail customers in these types of locations.

And why would Oakland County police patrol this center? That makes no sense. Ferndale Police are already massively shorthanded. Are they even allowed to patrol in other jurisdictions?

Your analysis has no merit. If it did, why would Gateway be building a $72m plaza with a Meijer's, Marshalls and other tenants signed up next door if it's in a warzone? Does that make any sense? The fairgrounds is not a warzone. Why is there so much interest in it if it where? There are three proposals of interest, not just one. Proximity is highly relevant when you a commercial cluster including a major retail anchor next door. The land is worth a lot more than $1. It shouldn't just be given away because a celebrity face is attached to it. He should be paying market value for the land.

[JVB]

what exactly would you have Ferndale do?
As I resident of that fair city, I can tell you that we are most definitely involved and concerned about that happens to the former fairgrounds.

I wouldn't have them do anything, I'm just saying the Ferndale police aren't going to be patrolling in Detroit and investigating crime in that area. It's one thing to "care", it's another thing to care enough to actually do something. Ferndale will do nothing, nor should they since it's not their jurisdiction.

JVB - By your own words, you tell us that this development won't do anything for the area. If that's the case, why should the state be giving the land away for nothing? Let the developer pay the current market price, which is way more than $1, and let them sink or swim on their own finances. Quit supporting taxpayers subsidies for private development.

I didn't say they should give it away for nothing, but your assumption that the market value is something higher is based on nothing more than some random appraisal - the same kind of appraisals that helped tank the housing industry. Property is worth whatever someone will pay for it, and the owner can feel free to sell the land to whoever they want to sell it to. Or they can do nothing and try to hold out for some major multi-million dollar offer for another 20 years while the land continues to sit vacant. Maybe the thinking is that this is the quickest way to get some development going in order to increase the property tax revenue?

The fairgrounds is not a warzone.

The neighborhood behind the Fairgrounds is easily one of the worst neighborhoods in the entire city.

[Shollin]

People from Grosse Pointe don't shop at Eastland. They go out of their way to avoid Eastland. The same will happen with this development. The hope is to attract people from stable Detroit neighborhoods such as Palmer Woods, University District, perhaps Midtown etc.

[leapfrog]

I wouldn't have them do anything, I'm just saying the Ferndale police aren't going to be patrolling in Detroit and investigating crime in that area. It's one thing to "care", it's another thing to care enough to actually do something. Ferndale will do nothing, nor should they since it's not their jurisdiction.

You are absolutely correct that they would be outside their jurisdiction. But you are the one who claims "Ferndale" doesnt care about what happens.
How you can claim to know what an entire city means is beyond me, but hey, generalize away.

As Baselinepunk has stated, those of us who ACTUALLY LIVE IN FERNDALE have a different opinion on the level of care that Ferndale residents have.

I'm just defending my city from someone whose posts seem to be designed to provoke rather than further discussion.

[leapfrog]

People from Grosse Pointe don't shop at Eastland. They go out of their way to avoid Eastland. The same will happen with this development. The hope is to attract people from stable Detroit neighborhoods such as Palmer Woods, University District, perhaps Midtown etc.

I think that may be true in some cases, but I know many people in Ferndale [[myself included) who WOULD shop there. So, I think they would be able to draw people from the surrounding areas. The challenge I think would be to keep them coming back if they have a less than positive experience - but thats true for any retail establishment.

[JVB]

You are absolutely correct that they would be outside their jurisdiction. But you are the one who claims "Ferndale" doesnt care about what happens.
How you can claim to know what an entire city means is beyond me, but hey, generalize away.

As Baselinepunk has stated, those of us who ACTUALLY LIVE IN FERNDALE have a different opinion on the level of care that Ferndale residents have.

I'm just defending my city from someone whose posts seem to be designed to provoke rather than further discussion.

Perhaps you should have read the post I was responding to, before getting your panties in a bunch. The claim was made by another poster that "It borders Ferndale, Oakland County, where people who have money live and it's designed for those customers. If there's a robbery at this plaza, how much are you willing to bet that the police from Oakland would be there in an instant?"

So the fact that some Ferndale resident "cares" about the Fairgrounds is cute but completely irrelevant to the point we were discussing.

[Novine]

"I didn't say they should give it away for nothing, but your assumption that the market value is something higher is based on nothing more than some random appraisal - the same kind of appraisals that helped tank the housing industry."

It's not based on some random appraisals, it's based on the reality that even land in Detroit is worth something more than $1. The only land that would legally be considered worthless is a property that's contaminated and where the clean-up costs would exceed any feasible re-use of the property after clean-up. That's not the case here. Still waiting to hear what justifies the state giving away land for next to nothing for some half-baked development scheme that does little or nothing for that part of Detroit.

[Baselinepunk]

"Thanks for sharing, but I didn't say whether folks "give a f--k" about Detroit; I said they aren't shopping in the badlands around John R/7Mile, and the Ferndale Police aren't going to be patrolling."

Who said I was talking to you? Well, now that you've engaged:

"If these neighborhoods have such a positive impact based on their mere proximity, why is the neighborhood so bad?"

Perhaps if you could actually posit something that didn't use fallacy you might be found somewhat creditable. However, at this point your "opinions" are worth about as much as that Mountain Dew/Cheetos lunch you just consumed in your mom's basement.

[DetroitPlanner]

Maybe connected to Mr Gilbert had something to do with it,he did figure out how to collect 200 mil maybe he is mentoring and spreading the love.

There may be something to this:
http://www.quickenloans.com/blog/com...n-partners-dvp