Where Detroit public transportation goes from here.

[dtowncitylover]

Thank you Rocko for that detailed post!

What will need to happen is build a new transit hub that may cost millions and millions of dollars. The construction of new tracks and platforms to accommodate multiple train arrivals and departures each day and so it doesn't get in the way of cargo trains. It doesn't bother me that a future transit hub could be placed outside of downtown. Ogilvie station in Chicago is west of the river and the loop and Union Station in DC is well north of all the federal buildings.

If it were up to me it seems like the blocks bounded by the Blvd, Woodward, Cass, and the rail tracks could be totally redeveloped to build a central station with the front overlooking the Blvd. [[imagining the Suburban Station in Philly). But that's me thinking really quickly about this w/o much research.

I thought I saw something being built at Woodward and Amsterdam [[south of the tracks) last week?

[Rocko]

I wasn't saying that a new transit hub shouldn't cost millions and millions of dollars. If we're going to get serious and do it right - and plan for future growth and expansion - we are going to have to pony up and spend some big $$.

The problem with the current site, or the one immediately to the south, is that the tracks are elevated, and there's not much room for expansion without some major changes to several blocks and adding lots and lots of fill. The current tracks are both through routes for two important freight rail companies, and they won't want to tie them up with passenger trains which may sit for a while.

It's true, many big city train stations aren't in the very center of the downtown core. But in Detroit's case, having it way out near New Center puts it far away from the largest concentration of jobs and residences. Now, if we scrapped M1 and built a subway under Woodward, one where you could get downtown in 8-10 minutes, then it might be do-able.

My plan for using the routes I mentioned and putting the commuter station downtown at Cobo was based primarily on three points:
1-proximety to the center of downtown [[and connection to DPM)
2-reuse of several still-extant railroad right-of-ways.
3-It would be a direct extension of Detroit's primary intercity rail route, which will one day be Chicago-Detroit-Toronto.

Placing a major intercity hub on Woodward in New Center would allow the same endpoints to be served, but by current routings the trains would have to either a) switch direction or backup for several miles to get back toward the Detroit River Tunnel, or b) cross the border in Sarnia by way of Mt. Clemens and Pt. Huron. Feasible, yes, but Windsor won't want to be left out, nor should they be. Now you could also have a major commuter train station at Woodward in New Center, and re-utilize MCS for intercity trains [[as I had fleshed out in my plan, thought I didn't really mention it), but that sort of destroys the overall idea of multi-modal connectivity.

The Woodward site is not a bad place for a railroad station, as it is located on two through-routes which connect to pretty much every route which comes toward the Detroit metro area, I just don't think it's the best place for THE ONLY train station in Detroit.

Just my thoughts. I should really take a few minutes and update my plan to reflect 4+ years of changes and repost it here, [[in a new thread), if others are interested to read it.

[Tig3rzhark]

When I saw the concept for M1, it seems that those people forgot that cars and buses park on the curb. No matter how many private or public parking lots are created, someone would rather park on the curb.

Also, bicycles ride on Woodward too. If you put the light rail curbside, bikes couldn't ride on Woodward anymore. Not that many folks care.

I hope that it doesn't take too long to extend to at least 8 mile. So if the suburbs get cold feet, Detroiters would still be able to get to the Fairgrounds faster than ever, and catch the SMART buses from there.

As a Detroiter who catches the Woodward, that bus is always crowded. So having light rail that goes only to transfer points in DDOT and SMART routes, would be a godsend.

Now, could someone please explain to me how is M1 going to get from Grand Circus Park to Jefferson Ave, riding along with car traffic, running curbside at that? There's barely enough room for that streetcar to go along that corridor.

There's going to have to be a lot of street changes made downtown. Thus taking it a lot longer for this train to ever be built.

I just hope that the regional transit authority has a lot of intelligent people on that board. We've been through enough failure already. If M1 doesn't work the way it's suppose to, best believe, there will be little light rail to speak of, here in Detroit.

[TexasT]

Now, could someone please explain to me how is M1 going to get from Grand Circus Park to Jefferson Ave, riding along with car traffic, running curbside at that? There's barely enough room for that streetcar to go along that corridor.

We had this problem in Houston. When you get to the center of downtown, the train runs on the street along with the cars. I couldn't find a good picture but you can see how a car would be able to ride in front of or behind the train from this pic:


It's only for a few blocks and since the train is only once every 10 mins or so [[and because the lights are timed with the trains), it's not that big of a problem as far as trains getting through traffic. That being said, we had some issues with car/train accidents before everyone got used to them being there.

But that's one way to fit a train on a two-lane urban street.

[Dexlin]

I think this really shows just how clueless some folks are, as if a curbside streetcar has never operated in any city ever. I'd have prefered a full on light rail, but the ignorance around how a streetcar works shows just how far short a city's memory can be and how incredibly provencial Detroiters can be.

Woodward is a huge-ass street, probably one of the widest main streets in the country, and people are really concerned about it being able to include multiple modes of transportation? Really? Detroit can have nice things, but hell if you don't know sh%t about 'em in the beginning. People need to get out, more, to say the very least.

[brizee]

No news but a few questions/speculation about the inaugural RTA board.

Washtenaw - 2 known.
Governor - 1 Known.
Wayne - 2 Unknown.
Macomb - 2 Unknown.
Oakland - 2 Unknown
Detroit - 1 Unknown.

I'm gonna guess one of these spots is gonna be filled by a local professor, probably Detroit Mercy, since individuals associated from that school have been mentioned more than once in association with transit.

Again just speculation, also have no idea where these people live.

Leo Hanifan Dean of Engineering UDM - Only "met" him a few times, don't know him that well, he seems to advocate for transportation in this region.

Alan Hoback Chair of Civil/Environmental/Arch UDM - I'm %99 certain he is/was involved in M-1 in some capacity.

Uptal Dutta Transportation Professor UDM - Seemed to be on top of his game regarding transportation, and another guy I'm sure was involved in M1 planning. Was a pretty jovial guy. Pretty sure he lives in Oakland county somewhere.

Mike Duggan DMC exec- It's a long shot but I could Ficano putting him in as the required Detroit residing one year term board member.

William Jones CEO Focus Hope - Serves on a bunch of boards and nonprofits already. From my own interactions he seemed tough but fair, used to dealing with an entity in crisis mode damn near constantly. Seemed funny. Even when instituting painful bitter cost saving measures, I still liked the guy.

Source of these consideration is my ass and my ass alone.

I've given my guesses, let's hear yours.

[Hermod]

I think this really shows just how clueless some folks are, as if a curbside streetcar has never operated in any city ever. I'd have prefered a full on light rail, but the ignorance around how a streetcar works shows just how far short a city's memory can be and how incredibly provencial Detroiters can be.

Woodward is a huge-ass street, probably one of the widest main streets in the country, and people are really concerned about it being able to include multiple modes of transportation? Really? Detroit can have nice things, but hell if you don't know sh%t about 'em in the beginning. People need to get out, more, to say the very least.

Woodward Avenue with streetcar tracks on the side.

Attachment 17999

[brizee]

http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2011/12/detr-d31.html

http://detroit.cbslocal.com/2012/06/...day-on-wheels/

I shit on Bing alot, but I'm not a partisan and I give credit where it's due. Right now this looks like a pretty solid pick.

Detroit - Lisa Franklin
Washtenaw - Elisabeth Gerber, Richard Murphy
Macomb - N/A, N/A
Oakland - N/A, N/A
Wayne- N/A, N/A
Governor - Paul Hillegonds

Any speculation is encouraged.

[stasu1213]

Why does construction has to start late in the summer. It should start earlier this spring. Statements like "late in the summer" get me nervous for the project could be stalled for another couple of years

[brizee]

After a day like today and as many busses as I saw slipping and sliding on Woodward...

It would be appreciated if these superbus backers would stop trying to sell their snake oil as being just as good as rail. Argue it's the cheaper, easier halfass solution and stop blowing smoke.

[brizee]

For anyone that suggests this stuff isn't important to the next [[soon to be lost?) generation around here.

Educated young folks, which this area allegedly want to retain, are repeatedly stating what they want.

Hopefully infrastructure gets tailored to them, and not Luddites who will be dead or in an old folks home in 15 years.

[leapfrog]

Educated young folks, which this area allegedly want to retain, are repeatedly stating what they want.

Hopefully infrastructure gets tailored to them, and not Luddites who will be dead or in an old folks home in 15 years.

While its encouraging to see them out and voicing their support, it is only a couple dozen kids. They would be cancelled out just by the apathetic young people on my inner ring suburban street. I just wish more of our younger folk would speak up and get involved.

Incidentally, I'm one of those who "will be dead or in an old folks home in 15 years" and I support mass transit and throttling back on spawl - some of us do get it.

[brizee]

While its encouraging to see them out and voicing their support, it is only a couple dozen kids. They would be cancelled out just by the apathetic young people on my inner ring suburban street. I just wish more of our younger folk would speak up and get involved.

Incidentally, I'm one of those who "will be dead or in an old folks home in 15 years" and I support mass transit and throttling back on spawl - some of us do get it.

No diss intended.

My own father, a two heart attack having city retiree living on the eastside, seems to be stringently against mass transportation upgrades.

I'm like dude you have a bad heart, bad eyes and you're about to be 70. My little brother ain't gonna be with you forever.

He roots against his own interests all the time. Even though he's COMPLETELY apolitical he'd probably be a black republican if he did vote.

[brizee]

This thing officially meets in about two weeks and 60% percent of the board and 66% of the voting members aren't selected yet. Unless I'm missing some announcement.

Looks like Wayne, Oakland, and Macomb are going down to the 11th hour.

Actually let me correct myself, it appears Wayne has made their appointments.

Detroit - Lisa Franklin
Washtenaw - Elisabeth Gerber, Richard Murphy
Macomb - N/A, N/A
Oakland - N/A, N/A
Wayne- Mark Gaffney , Curtis Ivery [[required Detroit resident)
Governor - Paul Hillegonds

[Hypestyles]

has a permanent HQ been chosen for the committee? If so, where? I'd like to know where the public meetings will be.

[brizee]

I believe that setting up a website and meeting schedules is one of the first things the board has to do at the end of March.

Also for all I know Macomb and Oakland COULD have announced their appointments. It's actually pretty difficult pulling up recent info about the RTA. Incredibly difficult considering how huge and transformative it could be to this place.

[casscorridor]

The RTA is taking a long time to gather. Something needs to be said about transportation in Detroit. State Treasurer Andy Dillon has publicly stated that Detroit, under emergency management, will target buses and lighting as major areas for cuts. The affects will be devastating. Imagine having wait long in pitch black for a bus that may or may not come. There is really no excuse. Detroit needs improved transportation immediately.

[brizee]

http://www.detroitnews.com/article/2...nsit-Authority

Detroit - Lisa Franklin
Washtenaw - Elisabeth Gerber, Richard Murphy
Macomb - Julie Gatti, Roy Rose
Oakland - Steven M. Potter, Matthew M. Wirgau
Wayne- Mark Gaffney , Curtis Ivery [[required Detroit resident)
Governor - Paul Hillegonds

Two educators, two lawyers, a transit enthusiast, a disability advocate, a former union boss, a former bus boss, CEO of an engineering company.

And a nonvoting executive at DTE.

Washtenaw is the only one that skews even a little young.

Congrats and good luck. And I sincerely design this for people that will actually be here in 10-20 years, and not those who'd like to see the status quo remain the same.

[Eber Brock Ward]

Until and unless the RTA secures funding beyond its initial allocation of $250,000 from the Comprehensive Transportation Fund, it's almost certainly dead in the water.

Expect a $1.20 per $1,000 vehicle registration fee to go on the November 2014 ballot, since such things have to go on a ballot featuring either a Presidential or Gubernatorial contest.

[chicagoforlife]

I can't believe that a city the size of Detroit doesn't have at least a light rail system in place by now. I mean seriously this is one of the largest cities in the country, 18th I think in the 2010 census and there is no mass transit other than the city bus, pretty sad to be honest about it.

Chicago is a northern American city like Detroit and has had the L in place since 1892 but a city 300 miles away couldn't do the same thing just because it's where they make cars? Doesn't make any sense and if you want a vibrant urban landscape you need mass transit, look at the red line in Chicago if you go north of downtown it's a very densely populated area because of the L. Nothing in Detroit ever gets done either so I doubt this light rail project they have in place will ever get done.

[Bham1982]

Chicago is a northern American city like Detroit and has had the L in place since 1892 but a city 300 miles away couldn't do the same thing just because it's where they make cars?

The L is about the worst major heavy rail system in the world, though.

Obviously Detroit, with no real transit, is in no place to criticize, but if you were designing a transit system for the modern age, you could hardly do worse than the L [[decayed, rickety system, short wooden platforms, limited shelter from elements, elevated, running in freeways or down streets instead of underground, no transfers to commuter rail, doesn't serve the tourist or hotel parts of the city, etc.)

At least it's an extensive system, though, and decent ridership.

[TexasT]

The L is about the worst major heavy rail system in the world, though.

Obviously Detroit, with no real transit, is in no place to criticize, but if you were desiging a transit system for the modern age, you could hardly do worse than the L [[decayed, rickety system, short wooden platforms, limited shelter from elements, elevated, running in freeways or down streets instead of underground, no transfers to train hubs, etc.)

At least it's an extensive system, though, and decent ridership.

Exposure to the elements did suck, lol. People ask what I've missed the most about moving from Chicago to Detroit, and I always say mass public transit, but I do not miss waiting 20 minutes in 10 degree weather as train after train passed by [[rush hour means you usually had to wait a few trains til one came by with room). Luckily I lived off the Blue Line which went underground as it reached downtown.

[chicagoforlife]

The L is about the worst major heavy rail system in the world, though.

Obviously Detroit, with no real transit, is in no place to criticize, but if you were designing a transit system for the modern age, you could hardly do worse than the L [[decayed, rickety system, short wooden platforms, limited shelter from elements, elevated, running in freeways or down streets instead of underground, no transfers to commuter rail, doesn't serve the tourist or hotel parts of the city, etc.)

At least it's an extensive system, though, and decent ridership.

You are going based on where the stations are located though more than anything. I was talking more along the lines of a design factor, what I mean is that all of the L lines start at terminals on the city's edge for the most part [[the brown line doesn't come close to reaching the city limits at Kimball and Lawrence). The system is over 100 years old though and they have had to make improvements along the way. They have done a pretty good job of maintaining it though.

It's suppose to be elevated though so you really aren't going to get protection from the elements. I like the lines running in the expressway medians, it's a pretty good design. As far as transfers to Metra you can't really do that since they are owned by two different transit systems. As far as serving the tourist and hotel parts of the city I don't know what you're talking about here because the red, brown and blue lines all serve major tourist areas in the city as well as the hotel areas, the other lines like the green line or pink line don't really go to areas of the city that tourists are going to be in.

[chicagoforlife]

Exposure to the elements did suck, lol. People ask what I've missed the most about moving from Chicago to Detroit, and I always say mass public transit, but I do not miss waiting 20 minutes in 10 degree weather as train after train passed by [[rush hour means you usually had to wait a few trains til one came by with room). Luckily I lived off the Blue Line which went underground as it reached downtown.

I agree, waiting for trains or busses in cold weather does suck. I live on the Southside near Comiskey Park and have to walk about 10-15 minutes to get to the red line which is in the median of the Dan Ryan at that point so you'll be exposed to the elements there, then there is the dreaded green line the worst line in the entire system that isn't too far away either as well as the orange line. I like having options as far as mass transit.

[Bham1982]

As far as serving the tourist and hotel parts of the city I don't know what you're talking about here because the red, brown and blue lines all serve major tourist areas in the city as well as the hotel areas, the other lines like the green line or pink line don't really go to areas of the city that tourists are going to be in.

My point is that the main tourist/hotel area is Michigan Ave. and east to the lakefront, and those areas aren't served by rail.

The main shopping/hotel/tourist center in Chicago was the Loop 100 years ago, but migrated to North Michigan Ave. in the postwar era, after the train lines had already been built. So most visitors don't ever use transit, which is very different than the situation in places like NYC, DC and the like.