Where Detroit public transportation goes from here.

[Hermod]

So, you're essentially asking how do you design a transportation system for tomorrow that faces the industrial realities of the 1920s-1950s?

As usual, just throwing whatever crap you can to the wall, hoping it will stick...

Your "ooh so superior" snark doesn't do much for dialog.


You do a survey to give you a look at the realities of "origination-destination by time" density lines. That helps you plan where and when you will place your highways/bus lines/rail lines [[and they may well surprise you with what they show). You try to satisfy the maximum "demand" with the "affordable resources". I wonder the last time this was done in the Detroit area. I know one was done in the fifties because I remember reading it [[and they chose the highway option).

[Detroitnerd]

Your "ooh so superior" snark doesn't do much for dialog.

I do get tired of the anti-transit prejudices that piggyback on your generally good scholarship. I know them all too well. Usually, I put up with them with an unusual amount of decorum because, underneath that snarl of biases, you have done your homework. But to come on here and say Detroit's centralized system of spoke roads is a liability because factories dotted the city 60 years ago ... you go too far, sir.

You do a survey to give you a look at the realities of "origination-destination by time" density lines. That helps you plan where and when you will place your highways/bus lines/rail lines [[and they may well surprise you with what they show). You try to satisfy the maximum "demand" with the "affordable resources". I wonder the last time this was done in the Detroit area. I know one was done in the fifties because I remember reading it [[and they chose the highway option).

I've seen such studies, as they were part of the 1945 Master Plan, which I have long enjoyed perusing. Boy, that document is an orgy of freeway planning. I guess when all you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail. Freeways, wonderful freeways, criss-crossing the east side and west side, bisecting and trisecting both sides of town. A great way to take lots of square miles of taxpaying land and remove it from the tax rolls forever.

But, you see, we don't live in that world anymore. Nobody is going to reopen those factories and demand that we move a half-million workers who live in a diffuse area to dozens of industrial plants. What we desperately need is an upgrade in transit service, and the sensible places for those upgrades are the spoke roads that are most heavily used right now by bus riders.

No, this time, I think people see it would be a mistake to let the exigencies of smokestack industry dictate the lay of the land today. Young people don't want to work in a factory. Increasingly, they want to work in a modern downtown, to not own a car, to have a smaller home or loft in the city, put off getting married and having kids. And, yes, we're determined to find some way to offer that here. Because we're offering our young people the best environments that the 20th century could offer, and they're passing. They're leaving. They're gone. And when people like you chuckle and chortle about "choo-choo trains" and stuff like that, it just cements it for them. No fucking way do I want to be a part of a regressive place like that. Bye-bye.

If you really want Detroit to have a healthy future, Hermod, you have to understand what people are going to want in 10, 20, 30 years. And I gotta say, for all your knowledge of the past, I don't think you get that at all.

[DetroitPlanner]

You do a survey to give you a look at the realities of "origination-destination by time" density lines. That helps you plan where and when you will place your highways/bus lines/rail lines [[and they may well surprise you with what they show). You try to satisfy the maximum "demand" with the "affordable resources". I wonder the last time this was done in the Detroit area. I know one was done in the fifties because I remember reading it [[and they chose the highway option).

Yuu mean one of these here thingies? 2010.
http://www.semcog.org/uploadedFiles/...Report2010.pdf

SEMCOG uses this [[as well as other data and surveys) to run a multi-modal model that simulates transportation needs. It is updated continously.

http://www.semcog.org/Blog.aspx

[Dexlin]

5 finalists competing to represent Washtenaw County on new Southeast Michigan regional transit board.


What the fuck is Dave Bing waiting for?

Isn't that a weird thing to ask when Washtenaw is the only entity to have put out a request, so far? What about Oakland, Macomb, and Wayne County's spots?

BTW, can you guys stop feeding the concern trolls? Thanks.

[wolverine]

Nerd, serious misuse of stats.

Population is at an all-time peak, and grows robustly, on an annual basis. Public transit usage [[as a %) is near an all-time low. Yes, transit is growing overall [[by n, not %), but is badly trailing population growth.

Auto trip growth, every year, increases market share. Public transit growth, every year, decreases market share. That's the real story.

Yes, there are some positive signs and exceptions, but you can't extrapolate positive outliers to auto-centric, population stagnant Metro Detroit.

By urban population alone?

[DetroitPlanner]

Bham, vmt [[vehicle miles travelled) is down quite a bit from its peak several years ago. There are lots of factors at work, these include a greying population, people moving closer to employment centers, higher cost for fuel, the increased use of bikes [[and transit) and unfortunately for some a lack of a job.
http://www.brookings.edu/research/re...-tomer-puentes
http://www.ssti.us/2012/02/motor-veh...trend-in-2011/

[Bham1982]

Bham, vmt [[vehicle miles travelled) is down quite a bit from its peak several years ago.

Miles traveled are way down, but this is a separate issue. I'm talking about modal share.

Long term modal share trends favor the automobile. They're driving less because they're broke, but they aren't abandoning their cars for transit.

So you have fewer trips to Petosky and the like, and household sizes are smaller, so less demand per household.

[ghettopalmetto]

Miles traveled are way down, but this is a separate issue. I'm talking about modal share.

Long term modal share trends favor the automobile. They're driving less because they're broke, but they aren't abandoning their cars for transit.

So you have fewer trips to Petosky and the like, and household sizes are smaller, so less demand per household.

Transit's "modal share" was at a high in the 1940s, but that didn't stop the powers-that-be from laying acres of freeway asphalt all over the metropolis.

Your simplistic "analysis"--straight out of the Wendell Cox Playbook of Made-Up Transit Statistics--doesn't account for the geographic dispersion of people into the automobile-centric suburbs since the 1940s. If there's no bus to ride, you're not going to ride the bus very much, are you?

[stasu1213]

Why do you say that?

Those are small "quaint" communities. Residents in those communities probably want to keep it as such. I would not blame them is they did. Light rail is for the bigger cities.

[brizee]

http://www.annarbor.com/news/2-washt...thority-board/

Again, why is Dave Bing dragging his feet?

[Rocko]

This may likely be totally unrelated to the RTA, but for once it's nice to see DDOT's next round of service and headway changes actually are mostly additions instead of system subtractions.

http://www.detroitmi.gov/Portals/0/docs/deptoftransportation/pdfs/Service%20Changes%20January%202013%20for%20Web%20a nd%20Kiosk.pdf

Also, DDOT appears to be adding long-awaited route maps to some select bus stop posts at transfer points.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...count=1&ref=nf

[brizee]

For anyone that suggests this stuff isn't important to the next [[soon to be lost?) generation around here.

[Wheels]

Katherine Mills of Troy, a 26-year-old Oakland University student who demonstrated, said she previously lived in France and Indiana, where functional transit systems made life easier.

How can you argue with that?

[Eber Brock Ward]

For what it's worth, I've always used the Metro in Paris, and lived in Indy for a summer, IndyGo absolutely owns our DDOT/Smart combo package.

[Tig3rzhark]

Since the Regional Authority, once established, will hold the purse strings, will that mean that there will be bus service in Livonia again?

And I'm not talking about the DDOT bus that goes to Meijer on Schoolcraft and Middlebelt.

There needs to at least be bus service to the Meijer there, as well as the colleges out in that area.

When they decided to drop out of SMART, that just made things worse for me. My doctor is in Livonia, and now I can't get there without catching a cab or getting a ride from someone else.

However, I'm now a student at Davenport University, and I may have to take classes at that campus eventually. Either that, or temporary move to Grand Rapids to continue to work and finish my degree. And change my doctor, since he's still in Livonia.

I rather not support a city that would make my life difficult.

[Rocko]

Once the RTA gets rolling, I would hope the first thing they do before tackling routes, fleets, unions or any of that kind of thing would be to standardize the fares across the included networks. It's stupid that if you buy the DDOT pass then you have to have the SMART add-on in addition to the transfer fee to transfer between lines. I don't want to be standing at Fairlane having just gotten off a DDOT 37 Michigan trying to go west further into Dearborn desperately hunting through my pockets for that last quarter to make up the SMART 50 cent increase while the 200 Michigan bus hauls out of sight......They need to pick a base fare and standardize it, and ensure that transfers are accepted universally as well.

After that the RTA can begin to look at the regional route structure [[eliminating doubled routes and laying the path for new ones), examining headways, and taking stock of the fleet to determine what coaches are needed where in the larger scheme.

[Tig3rzhark]

Well, considering the city's debt, they could eliminate the Department of Transportation and have the Regional Transit Authority handle all the needs for the entire metro area. The city can barely keep the buses running on time, a regional authority can do better, and it would be cheaper.

It was the refusal of the city to go up on its fares that has caused the mess between DDOT and SMART. It is an inconvenience for the SMART buses to drive pass riders that need to get on and drop off people along the way downtown. It is an inconvenience for DDOT bus drivers, to keep riders waiting by making a stop at a Coney Island, on the clock. Or even smoking on the bus.

I say that with one transit system running things, it would make sure that these buses will run on time. That there would be no opt-out agreements on where these buses could travel. If the authority represents Wasteneau, Wayne, Macomb and Oakland counties, that there would be no excuse for not allowing buses to travel anywhere in those areas.



One fare, one transit system, one DETROIT!!

[DetroitPlanner]

It is an inconvenience for DDOT bus drivers, to keep riders waiting by making a stop at a Coney Island, on the clock. Or even smoking on the bus.

Drivers are human. They need to go to the bathroom every once in a while. Where DDOT runs buses, this means coney islands. What is your solution? Diapers? Roadside port-a-pots where only the drivers have the key?

[swingline]

Well, considering the city's debt, they could eliminate the Department of Transportation and have the Regional Transit Authority handle all the needs for the entire metro area. The city can barely keep the buses running on time, a regional authority can do better, and it would be cheaper.

It was the refusal of the city to go up on its fares that has caused the mess between DDOT and SMART. It is an inconvenience for the SMART buses to drive pass riders that need to get on and drop off people along the way downtown. It is an inconvenience for DDOT bus drivers, to keep riders waiting by making a stop at a Coney Island, on the clock. Or even smoking on the bus.

I say that with one transit system running things, it would make sure that these buses will run on time. That there would be no opt-out agreements on where these buses could travel. If the authority represents Wasteneau, Wayne, Macomb and Oakland counties, that there would be no excuse for not allowing buses to travel anywhere in those areas.



One fare, one transit system, one DETROIT!!

Among its peer municipalities, Detroit, at $1.50 per ride [[and much less for seniors and students), has the least expensive bus fares in the country. Not surprisingly, DDOT's farebox revenue as a percentage of its operating costs is also among the lowest of its peers. Why haven't fares been raised?

Yes, obviously a substantial percentage of the citizens riding DDOT buses are poor and face some pretty difficult economic circumstances that most of us do not understand or experience. But Detroit poor folks are no poorer than poor folk in NYC, Chicago and D.C where fares can exceed $2.50. Before Detroit seeks any more federal transit grants, it should raise its fares and generate some more money. The federal government isn't going to solve all our transit problems.

[brizee]

The governor names is choice.

Meanwhile at least there will be some on the board not in love with buses.

“The big transit need for us in Washtenaw County is the Ann Arbor to Detroit commuter rail line,” Murphy said. “We've been laying the groundwork for that for a decade, and the RTA should be the way we finally bring that project to life, but the legislation has some weird provisions discouraging rail-based transit that we'll have to navigate.”

Murphy added that taking in factors such as cost and ridership, rail is the right option.

Why exactly this fucking place is so very antagonistic to rail is beyond me.

Dave Bing BTW still sits on his hands.

[gthomas]

The governor names is choice.

Meanwhile at least there will be some on the board not in love with buses.



Why exactly this fucking place is so very antagonistic to rail is beyond me.

Dave Bing BTW still sits on his hands.

By facts, rail transit has generate 100's of millions in economic development. Period! I will be very "antagonistic" too knowing the possibilities from what it can generate. Nothing but positive outcomes with having it, would you not have it?

[Hypestyles]

anything about the regional transit authority in Snyder's speech?

[dtowncitylover]

With all this BRT, light rail/sreetcar, Commuter rail, and regional authority stuff, doesn't anyone else see hitting the ceiling it terms of a central transportation hub. The itty-bitty, depressing, shoebox that is our Amtrak station will not be enough if our transit options continue to grow. Has this been addressed anywhere? Is there enough land somewhere in downtown/midtown/or the New Center in which to build a larger central transit hub?

[Hermod]

By facts, rail transit has generate 100's of millions in economic development. Period! I will be very "antagonistic" too knowing the possibilities from what it can generate. Nothing but positive outcomes with having it, would you not have it?

Most of the Washington DC metro stops have generated quite a bit of condo and commercial development [[thought the beltway exits seem to do even better).

Here in Florida, Tri-Rail [[aka Trashrail) has not been quite so successful in developments at the various stations.

[Rocko]

With all this BRT, light rail/sreetcar, Commuter rail, and regional authority stuff, doesn't anyone else see hitting the ceiling it terms of a central transportation hub. The itty-bitty, depressing, shoebox that is our Amtrak station will not be enough if our transit options continue to grow. Has this been addressed anywhere? Is there enough land somewhere in downtown/midtown/or the New Center in which to build a larger central transit hub?

In my prior DYES forum life on the old site as "BusterWMU," a few years ago I threw out a fairly well developed plan to take care of this issue, put MCS back into meaningful transit use, and help to unify our local and large regions using both rail and light rail transit. A key component of my plan was to take care of this very issue which you bring up here:

The city's current Amtrak station is poorly placed and insufficient for even current rail needs, let alone future ones.

I saw a real plan not long ago to build a new Amtrak station to the immediate south of the current one on the west side of Woodward. If you believe the maps published in the papers, it's why the "Amtrak" stop on the M-1 streetcar is south of the railroad overpass, not north where the station currently is. Whereas the current Amtrak station is on the tracks of the Canadian National, this new one would be on the tracks of the Conrail Shared Assets. Trains currently cross from the Conrail line over to the CN at CP-Vinewood, north of West Detroit Jct. Ironically, if this plan came to fruition, trains would have to cross over from the CN to the Conrail somewhere in the same area, if the West Detroit Connection at West Detroit is actually built. But I digress, other than pointing out that this line and area in general are poorly suited to be the city's only stop for true intercity rail. Commuter trains? OK. Intercity? Nope.

When I was working on my plan back in 2007 or 2008, work on Cobo was being discussed but nothing had yet been done. You may be familiar with the one-time location and rail alignment to get to the old Fort Street Union Depot, which sat at the corner of Fort & Third across from Fort St. Presbyterian Church on the current site of WCCCD. My proposal was to have a downtown Detroit commuter rail station located at the corner of Washington and Congress, within the north side of Cobo Center, with the tracks running parallel to Congress. This would be more central to downtown than any prior station in the last 100 years, end at a rebuilt convention showplace, and have a direct tie-in to the People Mover System. Of course now in 2013, Cobo renovation plans have moved along and that puts the kabosh on what I had suggested, but that was my idea. Tracks would come north from downriver/Metro Airport as they currently do through Delray, along the River, then follow the general old Fort Street Depot viaduct alignment behind the post office, through the site of the [[demolished) Joe Louis garage, and over the Lodge to Congress and Washington. Likewise, tracks from the west [[Ann Arbor) would pass behind MCS, and follow the still-extant old freight alignment through the trough beneath Bagley, Lafayette and Fort, curve behind the Salvation Army warehouse, and join the downriver tracks. Trains from the Plymouth area would be able to join this alignment at CP-Lou in east Dearborn.

That was my plan. I hope it makes a little sense at this late hour. Unfortunately, the opportunity has been lost as the Cobo rehab is now more than 50% complete. As for another route to or near downtown, or another location for a future station, there is very little to choose from without some serious new right-of-way acquisition.

No matter which way you look at it, the current Amtrak depot site is insufficient and in my personal opinion moving the depot to a new site just south of the current location does zero to fix the current problems. It'll still be 2.5 miles outside of the downtown core with a slow bus ride or faster but with insufficient capacity light-rail trip down M-1, which will hinder any future potential for growth and be a waste of untold millions of $$$.