Where Detroit public transportation goes from here.

[brizee]

It's in a small town that doesn't have the mass-transit demands of a large city.

By ridership numbers alone, Woodward Avenue was due for an upgrade the moment they pulled the rails out in 1956.

I wasn't even born for another 30 years, and I'm still in disbelief they were able to bamboozle not just this city but many parts of the country with this nonsense.

[Hermod]

It's in a small town that doesn't have the mass-transit demands of a large city.

By ridership numbers alone, Woodward Avenue was due for an upgrade the moment they pulled the rails out in 1956.

While they weren't pretty, Seoul had a very workable and efficient bus system back in 1973 [[before they built their rail system) and Saigon buses work pretty well and they do not have a rail system. Both cities are much larger than Detroit.

[Detroitnerd]

While they weren't pretty, Seoul had a very workable and efficient bus system back in 1973 [[before they built their rail system) and Saigon buses work pretty well and they do not have a rail system. Both cities are much larger than Detroit.

But if Seoul had a very workable and efficient bus system, why did they build a rail system?

Similarly, if the buses in Ho Chi Minh city work pretty well, why are they planning a rail system?

[Hermod]

But if Seoul had a very workable and efficient bus system, why did they build a rail system?

Similarly, if the buses in Ho Chi Minh city work pretty well, why are they planning a rail system?

Because if you have the demand and ridership, a rail system CAN BE more productive. The ills that pervade DDOT will not be solved by putting DDOT on rails. The magic choo choo running three miles up Woodward will not fix the DDOT problems.

[Honky Tonk]

Because if you have the demand and ridership, a rail system CAN BE more productive. The ills that pervade DDOT will not be solved by putting DDOT on rails. The magic choo choo running three miles up Woodward will not fix the DDOT problems.

Nor will it help the guy in Brightmoor trying to get 5 miles down the road to his $9 an hour job.

[unrealdetroit]

It's in a small town that doesn't have the mass-transit demands of a large city.

By ridership numbers alone, Woodward Avenue was due for an upgrade the moment they pulled the rails out in 1956.

Yeah, and the sad thing is that the upgrade could have been heavy-rail and fully elevated or underground. Imagine how different Detroit would be if we had a real urban mass transit system for the past half century.

[Detroitnerd]

Because if you have the demand and ridership, a rail system CAN BE more productive.

First of all, you mean efficient, not productive.

Second of all, Woodward's ridership has always been high enough to merit an upgrade.

The ills that pervade DDOT will not be solved by putting DDOT on rails. The magic choo choo running three miles up Woodward will not fix the DDOT problems.

Oh, I see. Now is time for you to change the subject to the local bureaucracy and make disparaging remarks about "choo-choo trains."

Hermod, you are such a one-trick pony that the kid who got you would return you to the ranch before New Year's Eve.

[Dexlin]

He's pissed because Lower Woodward's going to have a streetcar, at least, poor thing. Bless his heart.

And, the whole "DDOT this/DDOT that" bull is silly, now, considering that the regional authority holds the purse strings of both SMART and DDOT, at least as far as future capital investments are concerned. They want new buses, new routes, new transit centers, etc...? They'll have to do what the regional authority wants or they don't get the federal funding, simple as that.

[Bham1982]

They'll have to do what the regional authority wants or they don't get the federal funding, simple as that.

Doesn't work like that. There's a reason there aren't any freeways or widened roads in the Bloomfields.

The only places eager for light rail are Detroit and far southern Oakland.

Politically, those are the only places that have the realistic potential to get light rail in the next few decades, and, if it happens, it won't create transformative land use changes, because those areas already have heavy transit ridership [[the current bus ridership is roughly equivalent to average U.S. light rail ridership).

I know people will then respond with "but the starter line will be such a huge success that it will spur additional interest and new lines" but when was the last time a Detroit revitalization project exceeded expectations? We have a consistent history of "but this next subsidized boondoggle is the one that leads to a sustained revival" since the 60's, as if middle class folks will live in Highland Park if you replace buses with trolleys.

[Detroitnerd]

Light rail leads U.S. transit ridership surge in 2011 to second-highest level since 1957

Despite one of the worst economic and unemployment crises in American history, U.S. transit ridership has begun climbing again after declining the two previous years — and light rail transit has led the surge. With a growth rate of 4.9%, light rail ridership rose faster than any other major transit mode. Rail rapid transit [["heavy rail") followed, with 3.3%, and regional passenger rail [["commuter rail") with 2.5%. Among the latter was Austin, Texas's new MetroRail light railway [[classified as "commuter rail"), which saw spectacular ridership growth of 169% with additional offpeak and special-event service added. Bus ridership trailed, with large bus system ridership inching upward by 0.4% [[but at least it's upward). As the New York Times points out, "The increase in ridership came after the recession contributed to declines in the previous two years."

[Eber Brock Ward]

Bham, I generally agree, but there hasnt been the same demographic element in the past. With cultural touchstones like Pleasantville, American Beauty, and SATC, for example, driving the cultural bus for gen y and the millenials, cities and urbanity are generally "in" relative to tony suburbs for those of means, rather than the opposite, as it had been for generations.

With that in mind, and the success and future expansion of light rail in Houston [[another car city, and where I happen to be posting from now), I think the incremental success of transit is all but guaranteed.

With a huge caveat. We have to be serious about wanting to attract those folks instead of continuing over a half century of complacency. And transit is but one part of that. We have a bad habit, as a region, of thinking Bham, RO, etc. provide real choice when the most important segment for the aforementioned folks -- a big city -- has been totally missing.

Whether you're in or not for Snyder, I think most can agree he's good and comprehending and attacking this issue, whether one agrees with the means or not.

[stasu1213]

I believe that places such as a big city such as Detroit could use a rail system that runs up Woodward then later down Michigan, Gratiot, Grand River, and 8 mile Rd. Rapid Busses would do great on crosstown streets such as Warren and the mile roads. Bloomfield Hills, Grosse Pointe, and other small communities should not be interrupted with any type of rail system

[brizee]

I believe that places such as a big city such as Detroit could use a rail system that runs up Woodward then later down Michigan, Gratiot, Grand River, and 8 mile Rd. Rapid Busses would do great on crosstown streets such as Warren and the mile roads. Bloomfield Hills, Grosse Pointe, and other small communities should not be interrupted with any type of rail system

I actually am curious about that.

Are intercity the only type of capital/infrastructure improvement to be considered? Or are crosstown connecters going to be looked at also?

Trying to be optimistic, but I'm no fool either.

[Detroitnerd]

Bloomfield Hills, Grosse Pointe, and other small communities should not be interrupted with any type of rail system

Why do you say that?

[Danny]

So RTA is here and now that's to Gov. Snyder, the Nerd. Looks like Livonia, Canton, Plymouth, Northville TWP and Northville, and Novi will be forced to accept public busses in their main roads.

[Bham1982]

Light rail leads U.S. transit ridership surge in 2011 to second-highest level since 1957

Nerd, serious misuse of stats.

Population is at an all-time peak, and grows robustly, on an annual basis. Public transit usage [[as a %) is near an all-time low. Yes, transit is growing overall [[by n, not %), but is badly trailing population growth.

Auto trip growth, every year, increases market share. Public transit growth, every year, decreases market share. That's the real story.

Yes, there are some positive signs and exceptions, but you can't extrapolate positive outliers to auto-centric, population stagnant Metro Detroit.

[Bham1982]

Bham, I generally agree, but there hasnt been the same demographic element in the past. With cultural touchstones like Pleasantville, American Beauty, and SATC, for example, driving the cultural bus for gen y and the millenials, cities and urbanity are generally "in" relative to tony suburbs for those of means, rather than the opposite, as it had been for generations.

I agree there are some positive signs, especially among the millenials/gen y, but I still think it's a big stretch to then conclude there are powerful cultural shifts that will radically remake U.S. society.

If you look at the Census data, suburban and automobile market share is still growing, and for every NYC or SF there's a Flint or Gary. The urban revitalization meme, at least as a nationwide trend, doesn't yet translate to hard evidence.

There's a ton of hype, like with claims of a Midtown Detroit "boom", but when you look at the Census data, and walk the streets, there's a big disconnect between claims and reality. Midtown, supposedly the boomtown neighborhood of Detroit, is still very distressed by most measures, and lacks many of the most basic amenities.

[canuck]

Bham, I generally agree, but there hasnt been the same demographic element in the past. With cultural touchstones like Pleasantville, American Beauty, and SATC, for example, driving the cultural bus for gen y and the millenials, cities and urbanity are generally "in" relative to tony suburbs for those of means, rather than the opposite, as it had been for generations.

Quite the wake up call.

Is the sudden interest in city living and urbanity a new fashion, or is it going to last? Maybe a new form of suburban living within the city is what should be kept as a model. What if density is perceived as social housing in Michigan?

I think the need to build a transit system goes hand in hand with the planning of a city and its metropolitan territory. If so many people doubt the advent of rapid transit in one form or another on this forum, it probably has to do with the lack of perception of a future Detroit. Not only is Detroit not attracting a sufficient amount of dwellers in the core city, it is also losing infrastructure, residences and revenue. And the city suburb disconnect is just as difficult to deal with in terms of a perceived metropolitan entity.

If regional transit is done without first attempting to bring cities together on how to revive Detroit, and prioritizing development in the core city, it could well serve as another in a series of defeats. By tackling transit for the metro and not looking at a metropolitan government solution, the state may avoid dealing with some unpalatable issues, but it will keep sweeping crumbs under the carpet once again.

[Detroitnerd]

Nerd, serious misuse of stats.

Go jump in a lake.

[Detroitnerd]

I agree there are some positive signs, especially among the millenials/gen y, but I still think it's a big stretch to then conclude there are powerful cultural shifts that will radically remake U.S. society.

It hinges on a lot of factors, especially funding. We need a solid funding source for this if it's to happen.

But I think everybody's looking in the wrong place for the answers. You're not going to find the answers in the noisy statistics about life in the Midwest, which still emulates the last century.

Play a game: Pretend it's 1905. There are a few cars on the road, but most people in Detroit ride the streetcar. You hardly even have the beginnings of the infrastructure to handle the car, let alone the cars themselves. When there is a car, it breaks down, people laugh and cry, "Get a horse!" Where is the evidence of this coming "boom"? Nowhere, really. It's in the minds of the people who envision it. And it would radically remake the way Americans lived for a century. Nope, in 1905 if you walked a mile away from the tracks, development would give way to farms and fields, development that would all fill in over the next 25 years as millions and millions of cars poured out of the factories.

[Hermod]

Quite the wake up call.

Is the sudden interest in city living and urbanity a new fashion, or is it going to last? Maybe a new form of suburban living within the city is what should be kept as a model. What if density is perceived as social housing in Michigan?

I think the need to build a transit system goes hand in hand with the planning of a city and its metropolitan territory. If so many people doubt the advent of rapid transit in one form or another on this forum, it probably has to do with the lack of perception of a future Detroit. Not only is Detroit not attracting a sufficient amount of dwellers in the core city, it is also losing infrastructure, residences and revenue. And the city suburb disconnect is just as difficult to deal with in terms of a perceived metropolitan entity.

If regional transit is done without first attempting to bring cities together on how to revive Detroit, and prioritizing development in the core city, it could well serve as another in a series of defeats. By tackling transit for the metro and not looking at a metropolitan government solution, the state may avoid dealing with some unpalatable issues, but it will keep sweeping crumbs under the carpet once again.

The major roads in Detroit suggest a hub-and-spoke type of development where all roads lead to downtown, the development of industry in Detroit did not follow this path. As a result, there was not the new york pattern of the great downtown commute everyday, but a pattern of criss-crossing trips with people on the eastside going to Dearborn for work while people on the westside might work at Packard or Dodge Main. Downtown was not the great source of gainful employment. How do you design a rapid transit system for such a wide variance in daily commutes?

[canuck]

The major roads in Detroit suggest a hub-and-spoke type of development where all roads lead to downtown, the development of industry in Detroit did not follow this path. As a result, there was not the new york pattern of the great downtown commute everyday, but a pattern of criss-crossing trips with people on the eastside going to Dearborn for work while people on the westside might work at Packard or Dodge Main. Downtown was not the great source of gainful employment. How do you design a rapid transit system for such a wide variance in daily commutes?

Good and important question that urban planners are wont to address.


Where will the sources of employment be in the next fifty years give or take a few booms and busts in some sectors? This question may be easier to answer in certain cities than most. Detroit has a lot of imponderables. Take the lack of retail on even the most important thoroughfares and try to project a line, its commuter usage and TOD potential as opposed to cities like Chicago.


Planning for a metropolitan entity is paramount. The transit authority answers to a basic need of a community but the community has to be identified before its needs be answered IMO. You could do a Woodward corridor rail or rapid bus, and be successful in integrating one or two suburbs but the reality is that the future needs more definition.

[Detroitnerd]

The major roads in Detroit suggest a hub-and-spoke type of development where all roads lead to downtown, the development of industry in Detroit did not follow this path. As a result, there was not the new york pattern of the great downtown commute everyday, but a pattern of criss-crossing trips with people on the eastside going to Dearborn for work while people on the westside might work at Packard or Dodge Main. Downtown was not the great source of gainful employment. How do you design a rapid transit system for such a wide variance in daily commutes?

So, you're essentially asking how do you design a transportation system for tomorrow that faces the industrial realities of the 1920s-1950s?

As usual, just throwing whatever crap you can to the wall, hoping it will stick...

[brizee]

5 finalists competing to represent Washtenaw County on new Southeast Michigan regional transit board.

• Elisabeth Gerber, a professor of public policy at the University of Michigan's Ford School and former director of the school's Center for Local, State and Urban Policy. Her current research focuses in part on regionalism, intergovernmental cooperation and transportation policy.
• Richard Murphy, a transit advocate who works with Smith as a programs director at the Michigan Suburbs Alliance. He is a former Ypsilanti city planner who worked with Smith on the RTA policy.
• David Nacht, an Ann Arbor attorney and board member for the Ann Arbor Transportation Authority, which falls under the umbrella of the new four-county RTA. He said he would fight to make sure the quality of service remains high for Washtenaw County residents.
• John Waterman, a disability rights advocate who runs a nonprofit in Ypsilanti called Programs to Educate All Cyclists, or PEAC. He believes independent transportation is the greatest barrier faced by individuals with disabilities and a strong transit system is the solution.
• Wendy Woods, a former Ann Arbor City Council member, Ann Arbor planning commissioner, and associate director and adjunct lecturer at U-M's Michigan Community Scholars Program. She believes improving transportation infrastructure is a fundamental issue for the region.

What the fuck is Dave Bing waiting for?

[Detroitnerd]

5 finalists competing to represent Washtenaw County on new Southeast Michigan regional transit board.


What the fuck is Dave Bing waiting for?

Somebody to put him on their knee and put their hand up his ass so he can make a public statement.