Where Detroit public transportation goes from here.

[brizee]

So transportation has been regionalized.

Just curious how things will shake out now.

The board actually forms for the RTA in March. Hopefully no obstructionists are nominated. Ann Arbor Looks like it could be a problem.

It starts actually funding DDOT and SMART next October.

Some lingering questions about pending projects though.

When does M-1 actually start construction? Do they have to go through another Environmental Impact Survey?

When does the superbus get underway? Does this also have to go through an Impact Study? If so when can that get started?

What about SEMCOG's supposed plan? Snyder bus stops in Birmingham. SEMCOG has been looking at alternatives that go all the way to Pontiac and included light rail. Where does that fit in?

M-1 has been stated to be the beginning of any further rail expansion. The leislation spells out that any "rail" projects need a unanimmus vote from the executives, not just a majority. How would any no votes be taken care of? Would it be a matter of convincing? Does a certain amount of time between votes need to happen?

When a project is put to a vote is it majority or by county? Like a Woodward Line would be Oakland and Wayne, Michigan or Grand River mostly Wayne, Gratiot Wayne and Macomb. Does it need to win support of both counties just between both counties?

The bills spell out pretty specifically that the new authority doesn't have to take care of any labor obligations of either system. Does that mean any new DDOT bus drivers still come out of the city general fund? Will there eventually be no more DDOT and SMART? Can communities still opt out of SMART?

I really do hope for the best.

http://www.detroittransit.org/index.php

http://www.facebook.com/notes/suppor...80243735398958

http://www.woodwardanalysis.com/get_..._meetings.aspx

[Honky Tonk]

Where Detroit public transportation goes from here.

Hopefully not here....

http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/video?cl...autoStart=true

[Novine]

They can start out by ditching Snyder's BRT plan. There's nothing in the legislation that mandates BRT and there's much better ways to meet the transportation needs of the area than Snyder's half-baked plan.

[brizee]

They can start out by ditching Snyder's BRT plan. There's nothing in the legislation that mandates BRT and there's much better ways to meet the transportation needs of the area than Snyder's half-baked plan.

Yesterday's meeting was pretty interesting.

This project has been acting as a pseudo RTA until an actual one was formed.

There were reps from the feds and the RTA there.

This plan is much farther along than the proposed "triangle" from Snyder.

If everything goes right and it's funded this Woodward bus/lightrail is gonna get started before any Gratiot/Michigan/M-59 line.

The guy answering questions on the RTA stated the Macomb to Oakland line was a bone thrown out to get everyone in the area to buy in. It's on the backburner. If they get to it ok, but it's not the real priority.

It was originally proposed Detroit's representation would be nominated by the mayor and confirmed by the council but that's not the case.

Any rail projects need a unanimous vote from the exec board to go to vote.

The vote is a simple majority. He said if it was like the DIA vote, locations would be selfish and shortsighted. My words not his.

I think it was either Royal Oak or Birmingham don't want it to go down Woodward but to veer off to their downtown.

It's pretty much considering the same steps the original 9-mile light rail was.

Grand River was thrown out by either an FTA guy or someone with the state. Interesting as I never heard Grand River was on their radar.

There was a board where people could their three most pressing concerns about the project/transportation in general. Popular ones were reliability, access for elderly and disabled, infrastructure and development, ridership. I didn't see anyone voicing concerns for either startup costs or long term costs.

Appearantly land developers from downtown to the suburbs have been bugging the shit out of SEMCOG about this. They're ready to start projects and are waiting on word.

There were reps from other groups. One was talking about the state fair grounds. They're not even taking transit into consideration. Something like a third of their project is going into parking. They have been in contact recently though so progress might be made.

I recommend going to the remaining meeting they can. It's not a bad way to kill 90 minutes.

[Scottathew]

I think it was either Royal Oak or Birmingham don't want it to go down Woodward but to veer off to their downtown.

I really love the idea of it veering off to go through Royal Oak's downtown. It would be huge.

[Detroitnerd]

I really love the idea of it veering off to go through Royal Oak's downtown. It would be huge.

In the old days, the Woodward line didn't "veer off" into Royal Oak's Main Street. It was a separate branch of the interurban that ran out to Rochester. Royal Oak's "main street" was transit-oriented development for the interurban that ran through there.

We should be wary of having trains that "veer off" to entertainment districts. The primary objective of rapid transit is to move a lot of people quickly, not hit every cool stop along the way.

[Hermod]

In the old days, the Woodward line didn't "veer off" into Royal Oak's Main Street. It was a separate branch of the interurban that ran out to Rochester. Royal Oak's "main street" was transit-oriented development for the interurban that ran through there.

We should be wary of having trains that "veer off" to entertainment districts. The primary objective of rapid transit is to move a lot of people quickly, not hit every cool stop along the way.

The main line from Detroit to Pontiac didn't veer off on to Royal Oak Main Street, but it did veer off Woodward. The line left Woodward onto Washington Ave in Royal Oak and continued north on Washington to the DUR station at Washington Ave and 4th Street. Leaving the station, the line curved west on to 11 Mile Road to Woodward where it curved north on Woodward to Pontiac.

Two lines branched off at the station. The Stephenson line went east on 4th St to Stephenson Hwy then south on Stephenson till it connected to the Woodward line in Highland Park. The Flint Line went east on 4th St to Main St where it curved north toward Rochester, Lake Orion, Oxford, Goodrich, and Flint. Another line left the Flint line just north of Rochester and went to Romeo, Almont, and Imlay City.

[Scottathew]

This is great news.

I hope it starts by merging DDOT and SMART and making it one giant system that doesn't have routes oddly end at political boundaries such as 8-Mile.

The next step is to get started on transit systems such as light rail and BRT that will move people from the suburbs to downtown. M1 Rail would be a great start, and let's not puss out after three miles, let's implement M1 Rail all the way to at least 15 Mile, if not all the way to Pontiac.

I don't like the full scope of Snyder's BRT plan, but I think it make make sense on routes such as Woodward\Gratiot\Michigan\Fort\Grand River. These routes connect Detroit with the suburbs and will help with building on the momentum downtown.

Also, I'd like to see M1 Rail elevated where possible, most likely from McNichols and north. This would make M1 Rail FASTER than car travel when trying to get from the suburbs to destinations in Detroit.

[dtowncitylover]

Also, I'd like to see M1 Rail elevated where possible, most likely from McNichols and north. This would make M1 Rail FASTER than car travel when trying to get from the suburbs to destinations in Detroit.

Elevated? Really? Elevated? It may make it faster but it will cost, as previously debated and discussed to the point of exhaustion on this forum, more. Not just a little more, ALOT MORE. We would have to have the economies of London, Paris, and Tokyo combined to be able to afford elevated transit these days.

Elevated, oh boy...

[wolverine]

Elevated? Really? Elevated? It may make it faster but it will cost, as previously debated and discussed to the point of exhaustion on this forum, more. Not just a little more, ALOT MORE. We would have to have the economies of London, Paris, and Tokyo combined to be able to afford elevated transit these days.

Elevated, oh boy...

Roughly priced, Detroit would be looking at $125-130 million per mile going elevated. It is much less expensive to go ground, but there's more maintenance complications and liabilities when a system is no longer isolated and shares the network with other modes. I've never done life cycle cost analysis with ground vs elevated which I guess some may argue would make the upfront cost look a bit less painful. It's hard to tell. When trains are off the ground your wear and tear shifts from trains and track to the stations which require additional lighting, elevators, escalators, more security, etc.

[professorscott]

I'm glad everyone's excited to discuss this but we're putting the cart ahead of the horse. The FIRST thing the RTA Board has to figure out is how to get the public to approve funding for a new system. The money available for current sources is not adequate for any substantial improvements.

What gets built depends on the amount of money the public chooses to make available. The Board will have to perform a delicate balancing act: providing the voters enough information for them to be able to make an informed choice, without overpromising. I wish them well.

You should read the legislation to be sure, but I seem to recall that the voting mechanism is region wide. Either the whole region votes in favor of new funding, or it all votes in opposition.

[Scottathew]

Elevated? Really? Elevated?

LOL, yes, really!

I don't think it will happen, but I wish it would. The big thing about public transit in many large cities like New York is that it's actually FASTER than taking an automobile from point to point.

I went to a Mets game once and I was able to be back in Times Square faster than I could have got out of a parking lot in a car.

Your outlook is probably more realistic and I most certainly would compromise with light rail or BRT.

I just wish that would would handle this economic crisis like we did the one 80 years ago, with large amounts of bold infrastructure investment.

[Wesley Mouch]

LOL, yes, really!

I don't think it will happen, but I wish it would. The big thing about public transit in many large cities like New York is that it's actually FASTER than taking an automobile from point to point.

I went to a Mets game once and I was able to be back in Times Square faster than I could have got out of a parking lot in a car.

Your outlook is probably more realistic and I most certainly would compromise with light rail or BRT.

I just wish that would would handle this economic crisis like we did the one 80 years ago, with large amounts of bold infrastructure investment.

Detroit's problems won't be solved by more money, as so many here seem to wish. And I'm suspicious of the Krugman toss money at the economy solution. But with all that said, I think this kind of bold infrastructure investment -- targeted at our countries cities -- would do wonders for the future economic health of our cities. Every city from large to small needs good public transit -- even if they also need good freeway systems. The money could be very evenly distributed. Even cities with good systems need money -- and of course so do backwaters like Detroit.

[wolverine]

Detroit's problems won't be solved by more money, as so many here seem to wish. And I'm suspicious of the Krugman toss money at the economy solution. But with all that said, I think this kind of bold infrastructure investment -- targeted at our countries cities -- would do wonders for the future economic health of our cities. Every city from large to small needs good public transit -- even if they also need good freeway systems. The money could be very evenly distributed. Even cities with good systems need money -- and of course so do backwaters like Detroit.

It could be solved by smart uses of money. I realize some people may not see that with transportation. But ideally you want to invest money that will give you the largest return. That means NOT investing as much money in failing neighborhoods. If someone hands you transit money, you use it only places where people are interested in moving to or targeted development areas. So if you build an excellent transit corridor on Woodward, you can count on a good return in tax revenue from higher density development and more businesses.

[Hermod]

Maybe begin the light rail in Pontiac and build towards Detroit. It is more likely to be completed then.

[jt1]

Maybe begin the light rail in Pontiac and build towards Detroit. It is more likely to be completed then.

Yes, because Oakland County is sooooo supportive of public transit. It seems to me you have some sort of disorder that forces you to post an uneducated, snarky bs response to anything mass transit related.

[tkelly1986]

Maybe begin the light rail in Pontiac and build towards Detroit. It is more likely to be completed then.

Ironically I heard this same proposal from a Oakland County leader a while back. Sadly, I agree with you that it is more likely to happen if this is the plan...

[Hermod]

Ironically I heard this same proposal from a Oakland County leader a while back. Sadly, I agree with you that it is more likely to happen if this is the plan...

23 miles from downtown to Pontiac on the old DUR interurban. Figure 15 miles from Pontiac to 8-mile. Those 15 miles are probably the cheapest per-mile segment. Build those first which assures Oakland County buy-in. After those are built, there will be a groundswell of support for continuing downtown. If you build the three mile downtown segment first, it may just die there and be a people mover shuttle instead of a loop.

[brizee]

23 miles from downtown to Pontiac on the old DUR interurban. Figure 15 miles from Pontiac to 8-mile. Those 15 miles are probably the cheapest per-mile segment. Build those first which assures Oakland County buy-in. After those are built, there will be a groundswell of support for continuing downtown. If you build the three mile downtown segment first, it may just die there and be a people mover shuttle instead of a loop.

The street car and this Woodward project are completely unrelated.

They're in communication and coordination but seperate entities.

[Hermod]

The street car and this Woodward project are completely unrelated.

They're in communication and coordination but seperate entities.

So it will be an isolated 3-mile long people mover shuttle?

I thought we wanted to build a regional transit system

[Bham1982]

23 miles from downtown to Pontiac on the old DUR interurban. Figure 15 miles from Pontiac to 8-mile. Those 15 miles are probably the cheapest per-mile segment. Build those first which assures Oakland County buy-in.

There will never, ever, be light rail constructed in the City of Bloomfield Hills. You can take that to the bank.

They won't accept a bus stop or a sidwalk anywhere. I guarantee they would be openly hostile to even the suggestion of light rail intruding within their boundaries.

So unless there's some big bypass through West Bloomfield or Troy or something [[and I don't think they would be particularly receptive either), there will never be some sort of rail-based commuter transit extending to Pontiac.

[gameguy56]

There will never, ever, be light rail constructed in the City of Bloomfield Hills. You can take that to the bank.

They won't accept a bus stop or a sidwalk anywhere. I guarantee they would be openly hostile to even the suggestion of light rail intruding within their boundaries.

So unless there's some big bypass through West Bloomfield or Troy or something [[and I don't think they would be particularly receptive either), there will never be some sort of rail-based commuter transit extending to Pontiac.

Why is BH so pedistrian-hostile? Especially with Birmingham right next door?

[Eber Brock Ward]

There will never, ever, be light rail constructed in the City of Bloomfield Hills. You can take that to the bank.

They won't accept a bus stop or a sidwalk anywhere. I guarantee they would be openly hostile to even the suggestion of light rail intruding within their boundaries.

So unless there's some big bypass through West Bloomfield or Troy or something [[and I don't think they would be particularly receptive either), there will never be some sort of rail-based commuter transit extending to Pontiac.

While the RTA would have to "listen" to Bloomfield Hills for political purposes, it can essentially tell them to eff off. To wit, from Senate Bill 909:

Sec. 15. Local zoning or land use ordinances or regulations do
not apply to a public transportation system or a rolling rapid
transit system that is planned, acquired, owned, or operated by an
authority under this act.

[DetroitPlanner]

When does M-1 actually start construction? Do they have to go through another Environmental Impact Survey?

When does the superbus get underway? Does this also have to go through an Impact Study? If so when can that get started?

What about SEMCOG's supposed plan? Snyder bus stops in Birmingham. SEMCOG has been looking at alternatives that go all the way to Pontiac and included light rail. Where does that fit in?

M-1 starts construction this Fiscal Year [[2013) If everything goes right.
http://www.semcog.org/direction2035_..._20121108.aspx

SEMCOG is also seeking comments on the rest of Woodward.
http://www.semcog.org/uploadedFiles/...etingFlyer.pdf

[Hypestyles]

we'll see... or not.. especially now that right to work is cast in stone. there's a lot going on in the next few years that will probably get reflexive opposition who's driven by "no takeover!" or "no tax!" as their mantra..