When will this end! Scrappers Rob Cemeteries

**Patrick** · December-09-12, 06:59 PM

Here is a link to a photo of the Van Baalen mausoleum

http://www.flickr.com/photos/71288712@N00/2134936056/

**davewindsor** · December-09-12, 07:31 PM

Originally Posted by EastsideAl

A scrap yard buying a brass mausoleum door that weighs a ton knows damn well what they're buying and where it came from. The same with the many sculptures, historical plaques, and streetlight parts that have been scrapped around here. The excuse "how's the scrapyard supposed to know?" really only goes so far, and we've been WAY past that point for several years now.

Really?? Do you have a picture of this door? Prove it to me that it looks like it came from a mausoleum. I've seen brass doors inside private mansions that had wine cellars. I've seen brass doors on commercial buildings. It could have came from anywhere. Try again.

Scrap yards do have rules. I gone to scrap yards myself and I know at Zalevs that there's a sign that says they will immediately call the police if shopping carts and railroad tracks and railroad posts are brought in. If it obviously looks stolen, they are required to call it in just like a pawn shop.

**davewindsor** · December-09-12, 07:43 PM

Originally Posted by wolverine

Your city and state laws make it easy for scrappers to steal.

You could just ban transportation of non-purchased metals altogether. Only individuals registered and licensed with the state or city would be able to perform that work [[like a contractor). A job number and address of the original location of materials would have to be shown at the scrapyard.

What this means is businesses or individuals that work with metals like contractors or auto repair mechanics are the only ones benefiting from recycled value.

Anyone else, such as myself, that doesn't work in these professions won't see a dime from any discarded metals I'm trying to get rid of. Oh well...who cares. Most of us don't do that. It's the poorest of the poor that travel around the city looking for anything that can be traded for value....except often times its stealing.

Not realistic. Show me an example of anywhere in the country where they are doing this. We don't do that across the river either and there's normally 5+ trucks lined up with scrap from renovations at Zalev's. My guess is the problem with scrapping is the justice system just gives them a slap on the wrists and sends them out as fast as they go in and they're out doing it again.

How about mandatory 3 year minimum jail term sentences for anyone caught scrapping? Wouldn't that be a novel idea?

**wolverine** · December-09-12, 07:54 PM

Originally Posted by davewindsor

Not realistic. Show me an example of anywhere in the country where they are doing this. We don't do that across the river either and there's normally 5+ trucks lined up with scrap from renovations at Zalev's. My guess is the problem with scrapping is the justice system just gives them a slap on the wrists and sends them out as fast as they go in and they're out doing it again.

How about mandatory 3 year minimum jail term sentences for anyone caught scrapping? Wouldn't that be a novel idea?

What do you mean by realistic. Feasibility of enforcement or enacting a law?

I had to go through a bunch of work when I moved to Chicago and owned a pickup. While the city and state let me retain Michigan plates, I had to register the vehicle as a recreational class and promise not to use it to transport building materials. I work in the AEC industry, so if I was even caught moving materials from a jobsite and did not have the obvious B-Class Pickup plate and appropriate stickers, I would be pulled over in a hurry.

Doesn't mean scrapping does not happen here, but it's certainly much harder.

**EastsideAl** · December-09-12, 08:01 PM

Nonsense. The people who benefit the most from the epidemic of scrapping - the scrap yards themselves - must bear some of the cost and responsibility for what's going on out there.

Given the magnitude of the problem, the length of time this has been going on, and the publicity has received, there is simply no damn way realistically that the scrap metal places in Detroit are unaware that much of what they are buying has been stripped from buildings, etc. that do not belong to the people they're buying it from.

And when they melt down a historical plaque, a public sculpture, a grave marker, a bunch of plates that say "DPL" right on them [[all of which has happened), they know that stuff belongs to someone else and that they aren't supposed to be doing that. There is no amount of signs conveniently on the wall, dubious pleadings of ignorance, or campaign contribution bribery to elected officials that makes it right. They are making a lot of money off of destroying our city, and are a blight upon all of us.

JVB · December-09-12, 08:06 PM

Originally Posted by wolverine

What do you mean by realistic. Feasibility of enforcement or enacting a law?

You could never enforce a law that prohibited people from transporting metal. The scrapping is a problem for sure, but pulling cars over to randomly check trunks for metal would be prohibitively expensive and a violation of the 4th Amendment.

Any solutions to the problem need to be realistic.

**Honky Tonk** · December-09-12, 08:33 PM

Originally Posted by SWMAP

When will all end? I feel the same as I observe every building in SW Detroit covered in increasingly sweeping tags, huge swaths of paint now several feet high covering buildings and streetscapes that stood dignified and quiet for a century. Now they are ugly cartoons. When will it end?

There was a business in my end of town that closed, for whatever reason, retirement, economy, etc. There's a "For Sale" realtor sign on it. They always kept the grounds looking neat and a nice coat of paint on the outside. It's unbelievable what that building looks like within a years time. There's little chance someone would ever buy that place now. Graffiti over graffiti on top of graffiti, all of it bad. Everytime I drive by, it looks worse. I'm waiting for the day I see the doors pryed open, and the metal removal started. Then the obligatory fire, and soon you'll have another Detroit icon. Who TF cares what your handle is, or your initials are.

**wolverine** · December-09-12, 08:37 PM

Originally Posted by JVB

You could never enforce a law that prohibited people from transporting metal. The scrapping is a problem for sure, but pulling cars over to randomly check trunks for metal would be prohibitively expensive and a violation of the 4th Amendment.

Any solutions to the problem need to be realistic.

I seem to remember transporting certain materials like firewood across Michigan county lines was very illegal a number years ago. People were pulled over and fined. There were white signs at county lines warning drivers.

So I don't agree with your post if something similar has already been implemented in recent history in Michigan.

**Honky Tonk** · December-09-12, 08:44 PM

"I seem to remember transporting certain materials like firewood across Michigan county lines was very illegal a number years ago."

Are you referring to the Ash tree borer infestation? They believed the insect was being transported in cut firewood, so there was a stiff fine imposed if you were caught transporting firewood

http://www.emeraldashborer.info/

JVB · December-09-12, 08:46 PM

Originally Posted by wolverine

I seem to remember transporting certain materials like firewood across Michigan county lines was very illegal a number years ago. People were pulled over and fined. There were white signs at county lines warning drivers.

So I don't agree with your post if something similar has already been implemented in recent history in Michigan.

I didn't realize the scrap yards were in Ohio.

**wolverine** · December-09-12, 09:07 PM

Originally Posted by Honky Tonk

"I seem to remember transporting certain materials like firewood across Michigan county lines was very illegal a number years ago."

Are you referring to the Ash tree borer infestation? They believed the insect was being transported in cut firewood, so there was a stiff fine imposed if you were caught transporting firewood

http://www.emeraldashborer.info/

Yep that was it. And the state even spent money putting up signs with text that was barely readable. But I'd occasionally see people pulled over with trucks full of firewood or branches on I-75.

So a similar law could be imposed on any material if there's a good reason. Illegal scrapping has indeed come to a very serious level in Michigan. And it discredits workers in certain trades that have legitimate reasons to cash in on metals from job sites. But since these employees are already dealing with various permits and commercial licenses, creating a new specialized plate for the back of their vehicles wouldn't be much a problem next time they are up for renewal.

All I'm saying, the extra level of licensing [[identified by plate type) just makes it harder for people engaging in illegal scrapping to move about on the road. It will never completely stop it, but it would certainly make it easier to catch criminals.

JVB · December-09-12, 09:20 PM

It's a violation of the 4th amendment so the entire discussion is moot. Unless the police have reason to believe you have copper in your trunk, they can't stop you. Of course we could always just repeal the 4th amendment. It's not like we have many rights left anyway. Might as well trample the rights of everyone else to catch a few scrappers.

**neavling** · December-09-12, 09:34 PM

I've been investigating the scrapping industry for awhile, and the problem comes down to enforcement and stricter laws. There is a state House bill, sponsored by the Detroit delegation, that would stiffen reporting requirements on scrapyards. They backed down after the scrapping industry threw a fit.

If you want to see a scrapyard accepting all kinds of stolen property, check out Strong Steel, a few blocks from the Packard. I've seen trucks there with metal clearly stolen from a school. And it's far from the only shady scrapyard. But if I can watch this happen for four months and police aren't taking notice, then what's the point behind any new laws?

**wolverine** · December-09-12, 09:38 PM

JVB, slow down. I don't think you are quite understanding me as I agree with your above post. When I spent my time in Detroit, it wasn't uncommon to see a truck full of metal pipes, windows, and wrapped up wiring. That's visible to everyone. Now a police officer couldn't randomly pull you over for that either...unless of course it was dangerously about to fall off your vehicle. I mean who knows, that person could be legitimately transporting scrap metal from their home remodeling project right?

And that's exactly Michigan's problem. It's a state where Recreational Class and Business Class vehicles are not distinguished from one another. Here in Illinois when I register a vehicle with the state, I have to tell the state exactly what I'm going to do with it. If a cop is following behind my pickup and they see I got 8 pieces of copper pipe extending out the back with my R-Class plate, I'm about to be pulled over.

Again....this doesn't entirely solve the problem. Most laws don't right? But it certainly helps. I'm sure there will still be people who will transport sewer grates in the back trunk of their cars. And yes they'll get away with it.

I should also not forget that there must be a reasonable limit to what restrictions government imposes on transporting materials on public roads. If theft of tools becomes more popular, will they regulate that too? I certainly hope not. But I think restrictions on transporting metal building products is not unreasonable.

**Honky Tonk** · December-09-12, 10:09 PM

Originally Posted by neavling

I've been investigating the scrapping industry for awhile, and the problem comes down to enforcement and stricter laws. There is a state House bill, sponsored by the Detroit delegation, that would stiffen reporting requirements on scrapyards. They backed down after the scrapping industry threw a fit.

If you want to see a scrapyard accepting all kinds of stolen property, check out Strong Steel, a few blocks from the Packard. I've seen trucks there with metal clearly stolen from a school. And it's far from the only shady scrapyard. But if I can watch this happen for four months and police aren't taking notice, then what's the point behind any new laws?

Please see post #9.....

**brizee** · December-09-12, 10:12 PM

I'm guessing the job creators [[if this phrase dies a fiery death it can't happen soon enough), are throwing a bitchfit about it.

It's hard to believe. Legislators will fight to the death to keep people from utilizing a plant for medicine or recreation, but they'll allow scrapyards to take blatantly stolen property.

**Honky Tonk** · December-09-12, 10:23 PM

Originally Posted by brizee

I'm guessing the job creators [[if this phrase dies a fiery death it can't happen soon enough), are throwing a bitchfit about it.

It's hard to believe. Legislators will fight to the death to keep people from utilizing a plant for medicine or recreation, but they'll allow scrapyards to take blatantly stolen property.

Well put. Maybe we can talk the Liquor Lobbyists to speak out against scrapping?

**davewindsor** · December-09-12, 11:33 PM

Originally Posted by wolverine

What do you mean by realistic. Feasibility of enforcement or enacting a law?

I had to go through a bunch of work when I moved to Chicago and owned a pickup. While the city and state let me retain Michigan plates, I had to register the vehicle as a recreational class and promise not to use it to transport building materials. I work in the AEC industry, so if I was even caught moving materials from a jobsite and did not have the obvious B-Class Pickup plate and appropriate stickers, I would be pulled over in a hurry.

Doesn't mean scrapping does not happen here, but it's certainly much harder.

Ok, so the scrapper will go to U-Haul and rent a cube van for a day for $50 or even one of those enclosed u-haul trailers to haul scrap instead of a pickup. At $180+ a tonne for scrap steel, he'll easily get the rental fee back plus a good day's wage. Brass is over $1.50 a pound. Copper is about $3 a pound. That law is going to do little to stop an illegal scrapper.

**davewindsor** · December-09-12, 11:38 PM

Originally Posted by EastsideAl

And when they melt down a historical plaque, a public sculpture, a grave marker, a bunch of plates that say "DPL" right on them [[all of which has happened), they know that stuff belongs to someone else and that they aren't supposed to be doing that. There is no amount of signs conveniently on the wall, dubious pleadings of ignorance, or campaign contribution bribery to elected officials that makes it right. They are making a lot of money off of destroying our city, and are a blight upon all of us.

Where's the link backing it up? Let's see the full story.

**davewindsor** · December-09-12, 11:43 PM

Originally Posted by neavling

If you want to see a scrapyard accepting all kinds of stolen property, check out Strong Steel, a few blocks from the Packard. I've seen trucks there with metal clearly stolen from a school. And it's far from the only shady scrapyard. But if I can watch this happen for four months and police aren't taking notice, then what's the point behind any new laws?

So why don't you post some of that video footage on youtube and provide a link. I'd like to see it. Or did you forget to bring a $10 pocket video digital recorder on those days?

**wolverine** · December-10-12, 12:52 AM

Originally Posted by davewindsor

Ok, so the scrapper will go to U-Haul and rent a cube van for a day for $50 or even one of those enclosed u-haul trailers to haul scrap instead of a pickup. At $180+ a tonne for scrap steel, he'll easily get the rental fee back plus a good day's wage. Brass is over $1.50 a pound. Copper is about $3 a pound. That law is going to do little to stop an illegal scrapper.

Do you have research validating this claim scrappers will seek alternative transportation for their illegal activity beyond grocery carts and beat up trucks?

**davewindsor** · December-10-12, 01:26 AM

Originally Posted by wolverine

Do you have research validating this claim scrappers will seek alternative transportation for their illegal activity beyond grocery carts and beat up trucks?

Are you being funny or serious? Every other time I've gone to a scrapyard, I've seen a cube van emptying scrap metal. It doesn't take rocket science for someone with a beat up truck to figure out he can rent a cube van too if he has a big haul or if the rules suddenly change about recreational pickups not being allowed to haul metal.

**wolverine** · December-10-12, 02:04 AM

You could debate the different modes of transporting scrap metal all day. It's not worth your time. Ok, so you go to scrap yards all the time and see U-Hauls. If what you say is really true then I guess van service rentals better order more trucks.

If you refer to post 39, I say:
"Again....this doesn't entirely solve the problem. Most laws don't right? But it certainly helps. I'm sure there will still be people who will transport sewer grates in the back trunk of their cars. And yes they'll get away with it."

**mikefmich** · December-10-12, 03:40 AM

Originally Posted by EastsideAl

Nonsense. The people who benefit the most from the epidemic of scrapping - the scrap yards themselves - must bear some of the cost and responsibility for what's going on out there.

Given the magnitude of the problem, the length of time this has been going on, and the publicity has received, there is simply no damn way realistically that the scrap metal places in Detroit are unaware that much of what they are buying has been stripped from buildings, etc. that do not belong to the people they're buying it from.

And when they melt down a historical plaque, a public sculpture, a grave marker, a bunch of plates that say "DPL" right on them [[all of which has happened), they know that stuff belongs to someone else and that they aren't supposed to be doing that. There is no amount of signs conveniently on the wall, dubious pleadings of ignorance, or campaign contribution bribery to elected officials that makes it right. They are making a lot of money off of destroying our city, and are a blight upon all of us.

This pretty well nails it down IMHO.

**Gistok** · December-10-12, 04:20 AM

EastsideAl pretty much has it summed up very nicely... very much agree! Are we going to lose our artistic heritage to this because the city doesn't seem to care or have the resources?

Detroit lost a LOT of its' architectural heritage in the 1950s when all the beautiful cornices were removed from buildings in the city, due to an ill conceived ordinance... this desecration is even worse...