How would you design the arena and development?

[Gistok]

Here's how I'd block out the "Arena District"

Freeway would be decked over. The fox garage would be extended Northward over the freeway.

Area just East of the "new" fox garage would become an outdoor skating rink like Millennium Park in Chicago. It would be surrounded by restaurants and retail to soften the backdrop of the parking garage. But you'd see this open up toward Woodward. Keep in mind, service drive would continue as normal beneath the garage.

The Arena would be surrounded by Sproat, Park, and Vernor and Woodward...but it would be pushed back toward Park. I'd want reserve a linear strip along Woodward for hotels, restaurants, and shopping. It would also help give this arena a better face so it wouldn't be some dead wall along Woodward when games aren't going on.

Lots north of Sproat would become a mix of retail and residential. Lots between Cass and Park would be entirely residential.

If those two homes are still standing. I'd have them dismantled and reconstructed close by. Last thing I want is an arena surrounded by entirely new monolithic buildings. You need a good mix to keep it interesting.

Also, while I'd prefer a very modern design. I think the populace would enjoy an Art-Deco design more. That might be more interesting actually.

Nice idea Wolverine... part of the problem is that Ilitch has purchased so much land, that no matter what he does... a lot of land will still remain empty.

There's only one part of your plan I don't like, and I'll tell you why... that is the continuation of the Fox Garage north of I-75. Woodward and Park Ave... even though they are neighboring streets, there is no real "connectivity" between them... the closest you get is the yet-to-be developed north wall of W. Adams Ave. Elizabeth, Columbia and Montcalm have huge canyons of "no commercial/retail between the 2 streets. I would like there to be more "paths of commerce" between them... to help make some kind of pedestrian zone between Woodward and Park Ave. Otherwise... I like your plan [[although it's Midtown, rather than west Foxtown in nature). Especially the idea of keeping the arena some distance back from Woodward... but not in the same way where Ilitch has kept Comerica Park back from Woodward with 2 huge parking blocks.

Without Eminent Domain, it really boils down to which area Ilitch can get the necessary missing parcels to purchase to actually have enough space to build an Arena.

[wolverine]

Yeah I don't know if extending the garage over the freeway helps with connectivity. But I'm trying to avoid using available land for parking. Air rights above interstates are always available for anyone that wants them, but I'm not sure an empty park helps. Also large habitable buildings are hard to build since you need go beneath grade and out with elevators and stairs. That's why Short North on High has such small buildings.

I found I-75 is 20' below Woodward, so it's going to be tough getting structural depth with a park above. Chicago is having the same problem as they are proposing nearly a mile of I-94 beneath parks and buildings and the engineering is getting costly.

[DetroitPlanner]

Wolve, not to mention that you just can't add onto a parking garage all that easily that was not built to be added onto! Unlike places like Manhattan there is oodles of vacant land. No one will approve such an expensive fix.

[wolverine]

Wolve, not to mention that you just can't add onto a parking garage all that easily that was not built to be added onto! Unlike places like Manhattan there is oodles of vacant land. No one will approve such an expensive fix.

It would be an isolated structure, but you could still connect driveways on floors.

[DetroitPlanner]

It would be an isolated structure, but you could still connect driveways on floors.

If it is, how would the stairs and elevators be situated? You mentioned earlier, and I agree, that you can't have those sort of things over the freeway. The freeway has a wall so there is no additional room in the ROW for such things.

[wolverine]

I need to support my idea with visuals. Stair and elevator towers would be located beyond outside lanes of the service drive on private property. and could still meet life safety travel distance requirements.

Long story short, the cost of building a 10-14 level garage of unique engineering across the freeway would be far less costly...especially in life cycle expenses than tons of acres of surface parking. It's also a much more marketable package to getting the public support to throw money at it. A condensed parking solution, built over an ugly freeway is much more attractive to meet the parking requirements of the city.

[ghettopalmetto]

I need to support my idea with visuals. Stair and elevator towers would be located beyond outside lanes of the service drive on private property. and could still meet life safety travel distance requirements.

Long story short, the cost of building a 10-14 level garage of unique engineering across the freeway would be far less costly...especially in life cycle expenses than tons of acres of surface parking. It's also a much more marketable package to getting the public support to throw money at it. A condensed parking solution, built over an ugly freeway is much more attractive to meet the parking requirements of the city.

And such a high-rise parking garage would weigh less than a park?

Sheesh! You're talking some serious bridge engineering, brother.

[wolverine]

^ Apples and oranges structurally. Engineering a park with 4' of earth on deck would be more complicated to work with. The garage would be easier to redistribute loads over the freeway.

I've worked on more complex garages than this, that's why I figured I'd get a little creative

[ghettopalmetto]

^ Apples and oranges structurally. Engineering a park with 4' of earth on deck would be more complicated to work with. The garage would be easier to redistribute loads over the freeway.

I've worked on more complex garages than this, that's why I figured I'd get a little creative

Earth is a surface load--it's already distributed. With a garage, you're applying either linear loads [[if supported on walls) but more likely, concentrated loads [[supported on columns). Punching shear is a bitch.

This is also the [[more likely) reason the buildings on the Short North bridge in Columbus are small. The bridge has to support anything you place on top of it. If not, then the structure itself needs to function as a bridge. Either way, you're placing substantial load--with strict serviceability requirements [[deflection, vibration) across quite a long span.

[wolverine]

Earth is a surface load--it's already distributed. With a garage, you're applying either linear loads [[if supported on walls) but more likely, concentrated loads [[supported on columns). Punching shear is a bitch.

This is also the [[more likely) reason the buildings on the Short North bridge in Columbus are small. The bridge has to support anything you place on top of it. If not, then the structure itself needs to function as a bridge. Either way, you're placing substantial load--with strict serviceability requirements [[deflection, vibration) across quite a long span.

Yes but structural depth is accommodated via precast transfer trusses spanned to columns vertically above grade. It's more challenging to work structural depth into a park at grade with Woodward and a freeway thats just 20 something feet below and still meet clearance requirements. This has been the big challenge in Chicago.

But seriously guys, I'm suggesting a concept. No need to get criticial and figure out the nuts and bolts, I'm not involved in this in anyway.

[ghettopalmetto]

Yes but structural depth is accommodated via precast transfer trusses spanned to columns vertically above grade. It's more challenging to work structural depth into a park at grade with Woodward and a freeway thats just 20 something feet below and still meet clearance requirements. This has been the big challenge in Chicago.

But seriously guys, I'm suggesting a concept. No need to get criticial and figure out the nuts and bolts, I'm not involved in this in anyway.

From a feasibility standpoint, though, you're talking an estimated superimposed load [[in addition to self-weight of a bridge) of 600 psf for a park [[assuming 4' soil depth). That's equivalent to a 4-story parking garage, or a 3-story occupied building.

[wolverine]

Really what I'm doing is constructing a bridge out of specialized components. There's a company out of Michican that manufactures longspan components for "column free" parking structures.

I'm surprised you all are so interested in the parking garage. I threw the idea out there as a way of eliminating surface parking and giving proximity to the Fox garage, reducing traffic north of Woodward, linking the arena, and covering up part of the freeway. I didn't expect the feasibility Q&A though Ive worked on some radical garage designs and know it can be done.

Nothing is impossible. Just expect to pay more for what I see as a better solution than the "Detroit Way"....aka tons of surface parking

[JRich2425]

This is what I would do. Dimentionally, JLA's footprint would fit in the footprint of the parking lots between Comerica and Woodward, so I don't see any reason why I new arena couldn't fit there either. I would design an arena with architecture similar to the theaters across the street and include a flashy theater-esque marquee facing Woodward to add to the existing theater district feel of that block. To offset the lost parking lots, I would build two new parking garages [[the two red shapes). The garage south of the stadiums would include several floors of housing above the parking [[not unlike the original Griswold design) and would offer views into Comerica. Witherell would be perminantly closed to vehicle traffic and serve as pregame party headquarters for Tigers and Wings games in a similar fashion to Yawkey Way in Boston. Finally, the gap between the Fox and the Fillmore would be converted to green space available for gameday entertainment.

[DetroitPlanner]

I can't see how building this garage will be fiscally do-able. I do know that with enormous beams you can do great things, but that increases the per space cost dramatically. I also know that the garage will only be full about 20 percent of the days.

Its better to sink the money into transit alternatives and circulators within the CBD and take advantage of the areas that already have parking, but will be off peak of demand when events happen.

[401don]

If there's already enough parking for Comerica and Ford Field to hold events at the same time why is more parking needed for a new arena other than maybe a small garage for players, staff and suite-holders?

[emu steve]

This is what I would do. Dimentionally, JLA's footprint would fit in the footprint of the parking lots between Comerica and Woodward, so I don't see any reason why I new arena couldn't fit there either. I would design an arena with architecture similar to the theaters across the street and include a flashy theater-esque marquee facing Woodward to add to the existing theater district feel of that block. To offset the lost parking lots, I would build two new parking garages [[the two red shapes). The garage south of the stadiums would include several floors of housing above the parking [[not unlike the original Griswold design) and would offer views into Comerica. Witherell would be perminantly closed to vehicle traffic and serve as pregame party headquarters for Tigers and Wings games in a similar fashion to Yawkey Way in Boston. Finally, the gap between the Fox and the Fillmore would be converted to green space available for gameday entertainment.

If that was doable, I presume it would have been long ago and Iltich would not have had to go through the tough exercise of parcel assembly in multiple locations.

The amount of parking lost there is minimal.

[Gorath]

I can see an arena fitting on those two parking lots. It would be a very tight fit though.

No way you build a parking ramp across from Grand Circus Park. Buildings should overlook parks, rivers, lakes, etc. Ramps get hidden back and away.

[wolverine]

I can't see how building this garage will be fiscally do-able. I do know that with enormous beams you can do great things, but that increases the per space cost dramatically. I also know that the garage will only be full about 20 percent of the days.

Its better to sink the money into transit alternatives and circulators within the CBD and take advantage of the areas that already have parking, but will be off peak of demand when events happen.

Well I totally agree with that. I wish it had zero parking requirements to be honest!

[JVB]

Just expect to pay more for what I see as a better solution than the "Detroit Way"....aka tons of surface parking

It's...the Motor City. Cars are part of our culture here.

[ghettopalmetto]

It's...the Motor City. Cars are part of our culture here.

Yup. Ever since 1701.

[wolverine]

It's...the Motor City. Cars are part of our culture here.

Then be innovative in parking solutions. Show how the car can still be a viable part of an urban landscape without filling the landscape with ugly surface parking.

[JVB]

Then be innovative in parking solutions. Show how the car can still be a viable part of an urban landscape without filling the landscape with ugly surface parking.

I don't disagree, I'm just always amazed at how many people forget that when comparing Detroit to other cities and complaining about our mass transit situation or parking lots. We can always do a better job, but cars are part of our culture here like nowhere else in this country.

[JRich2425]

I can see an arena fitting on those two parking lots. It would be a very tight fit though.

No way you build a parking ramp across from Grand Circus Park. Buildings should overlook parks, rivers, lakes, etc. Ramps get hidden back and away.

I agree with you, in theory, that parcels adjacent to parks should be used in more attractive ways than as parking garages. My argument is that a nicely designed garage with ground floor retail and residential above is far better than what is there now [[a surface lot).