Michigan Gov. Rick Snyder says right-to-work issue is on the table

JVB · December-06-12, 11:35 PM

Originally Posted by Cincinnati_Kid

Show me a comparison that non-union workers make more than union. I believe it's the opposite, that's why most companies don't want to set up shop in unionized states, they all are south of the Mason-Dixon line. JerryTimes is right. Non-union workers get paid what the company feels they are worth [[which is usually peanuts) with no bargaining power whatsoever. Take it or leave it. RTW opens the door for the continued declassification of the middle class.

I'm just telling you what the pay was at the company I worked for. I don't pretend to know all the numbers for all of the other companies, but my anecdotal experience eliminates a lot of variables since they all worked in the same city, for the same company, making the same parts for the Big 3. It would be less instructive to compare the rates between different industries, companies and areas.

I can also tell you that many of the really good union workers did not like the union and would have gladly opted out if given the chance, and I think that's why unions are so much against RTW. The fact is, unions protect the shitty workers and holds back the good workers. With collective bargaining in place, it is impossible to give a worthy employee a raise outside of his contract mandated increase. We used to be able to give our best workers in the non-union shops larger raises and more often to make sure we could keep them from leaving. That's just good business.

**Cincinnati_Kid** · December-07-12, 12:37 AM

What you're not getting is OVERALL pay of ALL employees will decline PERIOD. RTW depresses existing wages and benefits, and they're is no concrete evidence that it creates jobs. That's the GOP's line of BS to get people to vote for it. Welcome to Michisippi.

The United States Department of Labor, Bureau of Labor Statistics, Occupational Employment Statistics, May 2011 Occupational Employment and Wages Estimates^[26], shows median hourly wages of all 22 Right to Work States [[RTW) and all 28 Collective-Bargaining States [[CBS) as follows:

Occupation	Median wages in Right-to-work states	Median wages in Collective-bargaining states	Difference
All occupations	$15.31/hour	$16.89/hour	-$1.58/hour [[-9.4%)
Middle school teacher	$49,306/year	$55,863/year	-$6557/year [[-11.7%)
Computer support specialist	$46,306/year	$50,641/year	-$4335/year [[-8.6%)

CBS third-quarter 2011 COLI [[cost-of-living index) 117.03
RTW third-quarter 2011 COLI 94.46 [[-19.3%)

**oladub** · December-07-12, 01:38 AM

Comparing right to work states with cost of living by state. Right to work states are less expensive to live in.

Right to work states in aqua above

**Cincinnati_Kid** · December-07-12, 02:23 AM

^^ Michigan won't be one of them for cost of living. Already have the highest car insurance rates in the country. Pretty sure we're up there for other things as well.

**michimoby** · December-07-12, 05:03 AM

I get the sense that the board hasn't chatted much about yesterday's RTW legislation passage because, heh, we're laser-focused on a new arena and an RTA.

But all that said: what are your thoughts on the legislation that was pushed through yesterday? Personally, I see no effect on Detroit's current state of affairs, but it would be interesting to speculate.

**Honky Tonk** · December-07-12, 05:09 AM

Originally Posted by michimoby

I get the sense that the board hasn't chatted much about yesterday's RTW legislation passage because, heh, we're laser-focused on a new arena and an RTA.

But all that said: what are your thoughts on the legislation that was pushed through yesterday? Personally, I see no effect on Detroit's current state of affairs, but it would be interesting to speculate.

You no longer have to send your kids to school, a Nike factory is on it's way.

**Pam** · December-07-12, 06:12 AM

http://detroit.cbslocal.com/2012/12/...k-legislation/

Republicans rushed right-to-work legislation through the Michigan Legislature Thursday, drawing raucous protests from hundreds of union supporters, some of whom were arrested when they tried to storm the Senate chamber.

**Meddle** · December-07-12, 06:44 AM

No one should ever be forced to pay a Union head's salary.

serpico · December-07-12, 06:47 AM

Right to work is just the start... Regional government is on its way. The city of Detroit will no longer be an "independent" city. Schools will be regionalized. Yes, wages and benefits will head much lower. Those on pensions will see their incomes slashed.

**Pam** · December-07-12, 06:54 AM

I get the sense that the board hasn't chatted much about yesterday's RTW legislation passage because,

There is a thread in the Non Detroit section.

**Honky Tonk** · December-07-12, 07:07 AM

Originally Posted by Meddle

No one should ever be forced to pay a Union head's salary.

By the same token, no one should be forced into serfdom. Right To Work = "I'll find a schmuck that'll do it cheaper". Why? "So I can keep churning out huge profits for me and mine @ the top". "And don't forget my special entitlement tax cuts! After all, I created these jobs for you".

**noise** · December-07-12, 07:15 AM

In RTW states, employees who choose to not join the union are still provided the benefits negotiated by the union, as you'll see with even the most basic description of RTW. This is freeloading.

**noise** · December-07-12, 07:16 AM

Originally Posted by Meddle

No one should ever be forced to pay a Union head's salary.

Ah, the continuation of pointless, false rhetoric.

**michimoby** · December-07-12, 07:46 AM

Ah. Thanks, Pam.

Mods, feel free to delete.

**gnome** · December-07-12, 08:16 AM

I was a Local 652 UAW man out of Lansing. Worked at Olds making connecting rods and cam shafts. Not real fun work but it was real work, hard work and the Union was pretty good about adhering to safety measures and of course the pay was fine. So fine.
The unfine part was paying into their political fund and having no say where those funds went. A lot of the guys and gals felt the same way, there was zero input from the rank and file on the who or what of political involvement. You were also required to actively campaign for certain candidates and issues on your off hours.

being a third-shift left me with no ability to deny their demands I canvas neighborhoods during the day, even if that meant I'd get almost no sleep.

I've always been proud of my union days, but I am not clouded as to the reality of how unions treat their members as children who are told what to think and do.

this bill does not destroy unions, it will make them more responsive to their members, I see this bill as empowering union members because to get their dues the unions will need to respond to member wishes. Power from the bottom up.

**Hermod** · December-07-12, 10:27 AM

Originally Posted by Cincinnati_Kid

What you're not getting is OVERALL pay of ALL employees will decline PERIOD. RTW depresses existing wages and benefits, and they're is no concrete evidence that it creates jobs. That's the GOP's line of BS to get people to vote for it. Welcome to Michisippi.

The United States Department of Labor, Bureau of Labor Statistics, Occupational Employment Statistics, May 2011 Occupational Employment and Wages Estimates^[26], shows median hourly wages of all 22 Right to Work States [[RTW) and all 28 Collective-Bargaining States [[CBS) as follows:

Occupation	Median wages in Right-to-work states	Median wages in Collective-bargaining states	Difference
All occupations	$15.31/hour	$16.89/hour	-$1.58/hour [[-9.4%)
Middle school teacher	$49,306/year	$55,863/year	-$6557/year [[-11.7%)
Computer support specialist	$46,306/year	$50,641/year	-$4335/year [[-8.6%)

CBS third-quarter 2011 COLI [[cost-of-living index) 117.03
RTW third-quarter 2011 COLI 94.46 [[-19.3%)

Interesting. I didn't think the percentages were so close. I always thought there was a 25-30% gap. By the "laws" of economics, all the middle school teachers must be gravitating to the RTW states and the non-RTW states must be hurting for teachers. It could be something other than money motivates the teachers to stay.

**oladub** · December-07-12, 11:22 AM

Hermod, That's why I posted the maps on post #28. If there is a national 9.6% wage advantage living in non right to work states, it is made up by, for example, a 45% higher cost of living in California than in Missouri. Those numbers are not, of course, necessarily related to each other although a higher cost of living may stem from the same font as non right to work considerations. Also, both cost of living and regional wages are related to cultural and historical factors. I don't think that the standard of living was ever as high in the deep south even before the advent of unions. In fact, the increase in northern wages brought about, in part by unions, eventually drove factories from the north to non-union shops in the south and also brought most Asian auto assembly plants to the south. This new non union manufacturing base probably brought southern hourly wages closer to those in the north.

**jackie5275** · December-07-12, 11:34 AM

Originally Posted by gnome

I was a Local 652 UAW man out of Lansing. ...The unfine part was paying into their political fund and having no say where those funds went. .....

Many people in this argument are constantly saying that your union dues goes for the political motives of your union. These same people have either forgotten or aren't aware of the Supreme Court case from the 1990s that ruled in favor of a union member who didn't want his dues money going for political purposes. With that ruling, it made it illegal for dues money to be used for political purposes. The unions had to stop using dues for this purpose. The majority of unions then set up political action or political education committees for their political purposes. Members make non-dues contributions to these committees.

**jackie5275** · December-07-12, 11:42 AM

Originally Posted by JVB

Unions played an extremely important role in this country at one time, but most of the important things they ushered in are protected by labor law now.....

The problem is that these laws aren't being enforced. The unions are still needed to do that.

**jackie5275** · December-07-12, 11:52 AM

Originally Posted by Cincinnati_Kid

Gov Snyder lied and said he would stay away from this hot button issue, now he's reversed course.

That's because the Chamber of Commerce jumped in by supporting it.

**Detroitrobert** · December-07-12, 02:15 PM

Originally Posted by gnome

You were also required to actively campaign for certain candidates and issues on your off hours.

being a third-shift left me with no ability to deny their demands I canvas neighborhoods during the day, even if that meant I'd get almost no sleep.

I call bullshit. What exactly would they do if you refused? You were probably encouraged to campaign for labor friendly candidates [[as you should have anyway because it would ultimately benefit you), but there is no way for a union to compel you to do their bidding. As an elected union officer, if I instructed my members to go do something in their free time they would, rightfully, tell me to get fucked. Just as you could have and should have.

**Jimaz** · December-07-12, 02:40 PM

"not on my agenda"

JVB · December-07-12, 03:14 PM

Originally Posted by jackie5275

The problem is that these laws aren't being enforced. The unions are still needed to do that.

Which laws aren't being enforced? Could you provide some specific examples?

**gnome** · December-07-12, 03:39 PM

Originally Posted by Detroitrobert

I call bullshit. What exactly would they do if you refused? You were probably encouraged to campaign for labor friendly candidates [[as you should have anyway because it would ultimately benefit you), but there is no way for a union to compel you to do their bidding. As an elected union officer, if I instructed my members to go do something in their free time they would, rightfully, tell me to get fucked. Just as you could have and should have.

If your gentle and persuasive manner here is any indication, I would think my reaction to your bluster would have been bend my knee at your bullying. Screaming at people may get them to do your bidding for awhile, but not forever.

it is as though you are tone deaf to the stomping you got this past fall. You can't be a schoolyard bully all your life. People get wise to your antics.

**Cincinnati_Kid** · December-07-12, 04:13 PM

Originally Posted by JVB

Which laws aren't being enforced? Could you provide some specific examples?

One might be that companies will have free reign to dismiss employees for insubordination or any other offense, whereas that would not be the case with union support that protects against nepotism, discrimination, verbal and emotional abuse and sexual harassment. The punishment would have to be negotiated, thus the employee more than likely keeps his or her job. RTW throws all that out the window. Your word vs their's. Companies can fire people at their own discretion. Having a union is about WAY more than paying dues. It's protection against companies unethical tactics to remove people from the workplace without just cause.