Ilitch Proposes Stadium and Events Center

[Bham1982]

Again why are people claiming Comerica Park and Ford Field didn't contribute to any development downtown or redevelopment.

Can you name one new construction building in that corner of Downtown?

The only one I can think of is that small, limited service hotel off Gratiot that opened maybe 10 years ago. Even that, who knows whether it would have been built or not.

[gthomas]

Can you name one new construction building in that corner of Downtown?

The only one I can think of is that small, limited service hotel off Gratiot that opened maybe 10 years ago. Even that, who knows whether it would have been built or not.

Maybe that wasn't the plan for Comerica Park, I don't believe Ilitch included residential, office and/or retail when he announce plans for Comerica Park, same goes for Ford Field. But now he realize what he needed to do that to create this vibrant district he solely wants badly. So he hired a urban planning architecture firm to help him out. Its a reasons for years hes been clearing and tearing down buildings, beside "Building" buildings..There's a bigger picture with this development.

[Shollin]

Can you name one new construction building in that corner of Downtown?

The only one I can think of is that small, limited service hotel off Gratiot that opened maybe 10 years ago. Even that, who knows whether it would have been built or not.

Can you name one new construction building in all of downtown Detroit? Are you saying redeveloping north Woodward had no impact on the revival of Campus Martius and surrounding areas?

[southen]

Well, there's two issues you bring up. Physical location and economic impact.

I agree that JLA is integrated differently, so that adjacent development can't occur, but the net economic impact on downtown should be the same. In both cases, you're bringing roughly 20,000 folks downtown for a couple hours, with the same potential for spinoff.

In the case of Comerica, however, you do have an analagous situation. There hasn't been one new construction building around Comerica.

If Illitch wants to build office buildings and the like, and truly belives that sports events are the necessary trigger, he has a tabula rasa all around Comerica.

i think proximity and walkability factor into it as well. if im coming down for a game and paying for parking i only want to park once. im much more likely to stick around if i dont have to get into my car again or if i have to travel to the other side of downtown. thats the difference in my eyes and why the outcome could be different at a different site.

also something to consider is the different uses for the venue. comerica and ford field dont nearly have the same potential for doing business that an arena does. that is a point in its favor as well. again, im not saying that it would work, i just think some of the comparisons are apples to oranges.

gthomas - i think the broderick is more of a result of an owner finally getting off his butt and a housing market that could support it. people enjoy the views of comerica and being so close for sure, but thats not why they pulled the trigger on the rehab. personally for me i would rather live a few blocks away from a sporting venue but within walking distance. the broderick's success is based on market demand, not proximity to comerica.

[Gistok]

Comerica Park has been open for 13 years, and draws four times the annual Red Wings attendance. Curiously, there hasn't been any new development around Comerica Park. It's all parking lots.

Well maybe Ilitch learned from a very expensive lesson from mayors Young and Archer... that if you announce something for a particular area [[such as the Jefferson Ave. Chrysler plant or the riverfront casinos and announce the exact site)... that speculators will buy and hoard land so that the people doing the development will have to pay top dollar for the parcels needed [[remember the $42 million CAY had to pay to get 1 parcel for Jefferson Chrysler?, or the $150 million cap on Archer's failed casino district, that later ruined rivertown?).

Why is it that some on here are still having such a hard time understanding why Ilitch is doing things this way [[keeping land prices down by not developing anything else). As one poster on another thread mentioned he already paid $234 per sq. ft. for one Grand River parcel... which was the highest price ever for downtown land. Had he developed some of his properties already, and got things further along for the entertainment district, that he'd be paying even more for the extra land that he needs.

As it is he's not even picked a final site. Mostly to blame for that are empty landowners [[such as Alibri and Shapiro) that seem to refuse to sell their empty land at any reasonable price. They're holdouts... just like there were on the riverfront casino land [[that now rue the day they didn't sell)... granted that's capitalism... but Ilitch probably long ago decided that he wasn't going to drive up land prices higher than they already are by building anything else until he's got the land he needs... which is why there are 3 sites possible. With Eminent Domain now no longer an option he did the what was in his own interest [[which just so happens to NOT coincide with the city trying to develop Downtown and Midtown).

Ilitch's playing 3 sites off of each other is a smart move on his part for getting holdout landowners to sell the remainder of what he needs to even build an arena in their hoped for areas.

Honestly I don't think he wants the new arena by MotorCity Casino... I think he'd rather have it 1) behind Foxtown or 2) north of the Fisher Fwy near Woodward.

But it really isn't all that hard to figure out why he's held off on the development of what he already owns?

[southen]

Maybe that wasn't the plan for Comerica Park, I don't believe Ilitch included residential, office and/or retail when he announce plans for Comerica Park, same goes for Ford Field. But now he realize what he needed to do that to create this vibrant district he solely wants badly. So he hired a urban planning architecture firm to help him out. Its a reasons for years hes been clearing and tearing down buildings, beside "Building" buildings..There's a bigger picture with this development.

funny you mention ford field because that building was designed to incorporate office space and even a hotel but has struggled since opening. something to ponder. same goes for the bar/retail space in comerica. those spaces are empty or now filled with tigers apparel.

i dont think a stadium alone revitalizes... but i do think a stadium part of a greater development can have an impact.

[Shollin]

i think proximity and walkability factor into it as well. if im coming down for a game and paying for parking i only want to park once. im much more likely to stick around if i dont have to get into my car again or if i have to travel to the other side of downtown. thats the difference in my eyes and why the outcome could be different at a different site.

also something to consider is the different uses for the venue. comerica and ford field dont nearly have the same potential for doing business that an arena does. that is a point in its favor as well. again, im not saying that it would work, i just think some of the comparisons are apples to oranges.

gthomas - i think the broderick is more of a result of an owner finally getting off his butt and a housing market that could support it. people enjoy the views of comerica and being so close for sure, but thats not why they pulled the trigger on the rehab. personally for me i would rather live a few blocks away from a sporting venue but within walking distance. the broderick's success is based on market demand, not proximity to comerica.

If it's a vacant warehouse, does the broderick get redeveloped? Is Grand Circus Park as desirable?

[ghettopalmetto]

Yes and no.

Gallery Place is among the more vibrant areas of DC [[to call it a mini-NYC would be quite a stretch though), but it's more in spite of the arena.

The area is busy because it's a Metro transfer hub. The arena itself is the deadest block in that whole neighborhood.

Similarly, if you look at other urban arenas, they tend to be dead spaces. Even Comerica and Ford Field [[which are really nice facilities, built about as nicely as possible considering when they were built) have created a permanent dead space for everything east of Woodward.

As long as there's no event in that corner of Downtown [[which is most of the time), there's nothing but blank walls and empty parking lots. Granted, that area probably wouldn't look much different if the arenas had been built somewhere else [[and there are definite economic spinoffs for restaurant, bar hotel and parking lot operators), but it stretches the imagination to say that arenas build streetlife and activity.

So it's not just me who is crazy.

What emu_steve isn't telling anyone, is how many blocks of the old [[and inhabited) Chinatown were destroyed in order to facilitate Abe Pollin's arena. All so they could have some bland chain restaurants who are able to pay six times the rent.

In case anyone hasn't noticed, Ilitch is recycling his Comerica Park rationale all over again. If Mike Ilitch wants to build an "entertainment district", can't he start by using the land he already owns along the east side of Woodward?If the populace of Michigan is dumb enough to fall for this again, then you deserve to get bent over.

[MSUguy]

Uummm, can people get off the issue of a "Dead Zone Development", claiming what the new arena will bring to the already "Dead Zone"...which one will you prefer over. First off, Ilitch repeatedly mentioned that it will include "RESIDENTIAL, OFFICE AND RETAIL"...including the Arena. How can this be a dead zone, where you have visitors and citizens shopping, living and working next to the arena? Now can we move on and focus on the positive spinoff this will create, and lets not forget JOBS and tax revenue due to such development.

That's what he said when Comerica was built. How much "RESIDENTIAL, OFFICE AND RETAIL" has been built? Zero. I'm not against a new arena, if he pays for it, but Detroit got little in return for its investment

http://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/D...%20Tigers&sc=0

http://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/D...ll%20Corp&sc=0

[ghettopalmetto]

Let the record show that nobody, and I mean NOBODY, is stopping Mike Ilitch from building Residential, Office, and Retail space on the acres of downtown land he already owns.

Anyone disagree?

[Detroitnerd]

Let the record show that nobody, and I mean NOBODY, is stopping Mike Ilitch from building Residential, Office, and Retail space on the acres of downtown land he already owns.

Anyone disagree?

If anybody were to try, the politicians and officials he holds in his back pocket would be barking so fiercely in their faces within days they'd roll out a red carpet instead...

[southen]

If it's a vacant warehouse, does the broderick get redeveloped? Is Grand Circus Park as desirable?

ive been to the roof of the broderick, ive seen the views. a warehouse not being used four blocks away means nothing to the people developing this site and certainly not to the people purchasing units. hell, they started it while the whitney was still vacant and without a plan right across the street. the people who first moved into the book cadillac had to look at the hulking and empty lafayette building, that didnt stop them. you dont move to detroit if abandonment bothers you to the point that you cant have it within blocks of your building. you are grossly overestimating the spin off that ford field and comerica have/had. bars and restaurants have benefited, but office and residential have not started because of these places.

[gthomas]

If anybody were to try, the politicians and officials he holds in his back pocket would be barking so fiercely in their faces within days they'd roll out a red carpet instead...

LOL! In that order

[MSUguy]

Illitch really gouged tax payers by financing 68% of Comerica with the rest coming from hotel and car rental tax

Public money was used to clear the land and for infrastructure. You'll remember that this wasn't vacant land YMCA, YWCA and the Wolverine Hotel buildings and others had to demolished.

Michigan's Governor John Engler then provided $55 million to cover the cost of clearing the land and providing infrastructure.

Read more: http://www.answers.com/topic/ilitch-...#ixzz2EIe2Bypv

[Danny]

Lansing to Mike Illitch about the new proposed Red Wings Stadium in Detroit for state dollars to assist the building costs.

"Hell no, Detroit doesn't want our help, especially with city council and Mayor Bing. If you want to have a new stadium in Detroit ask the City Council, Bing and Dan Gilbert or Donald Trump for assistance. This is a Detroit problem. Don't put Lansing or Snyder up to this."

[Gistok]

Public money was used to clear the land and for infrastructure. You'll remember that this wasn't vacant land YMCA, YWCA and the Wolverine Hotel buildings and others had to demolished.

Michigan's Governor John Engler then provided $55 million to cover the cost of clearing the land and providing infrastructure.

Read more: http://www.answers.com/topic/ilitch-...#ixzz2EIe2Bypv

MSUguy... that link you showed didn't exactly say where Engler got the $55 million... so here's an actual answer to the question about Comerica park... 2 percent car rental... CHECK..... 1 percent hotel tax... CHECK... $55 million Indian Casino revenue....
http://www.ballparks.com/baseball/american/detbpk.htm

[rb336]

In the case of Comerica, however, you do have an analagous situation. There hasn't been one new construction building around Comerica. .

spoken like someone who doesn't go there except for the games and is to "ascared of the big mean city" to stick around. New buildings? no. renovated and revitalized buildings? many of them

[Bham1982]

spoken like someone who doesn't go there except for the games and is to "ascared of the big mean city" to stick around. New buildings? no. renovated and revitalized buildings? many of them

Which buildings were renovated directly because of the two ballparks?

I see lots of new parking lots, and some new renovations, mostly housing bars and casual restaurants, obviously catering to the sports crowd. That's fine, but not what was promised, and not what is now being promised.

I don't know how you ascertain if Cheli's Chilli Bar is there becuase of Comerica, or is it Joe Louis, or maybe the Fox. Maybe its the residential conversions, or maybe they just wanted a bar downtown, who knows. I don't think it's a very strong argument for economic spinoffs, though.

I think, if a new arena were built, you would get a fair number of adjacent bars and restaurants. I don't think you would get much else.

[Eber Brock Ward]

Bham, you're cherry-picking the discussion to support your position.

First it's "new" construction.

Now it's renovated "directly", as if there was some sort of stadium/development quid pro quo.

Folks have already pointed out the Broderick, and soon to be the Whitney, and so on. Also the Milner turning into apts.

[southen]

Folks have already pointed out the Broderick, and soon to be the Whitney, and so on. Also the Milner turning into apts.

thats part of a larger trend of people wanting urban living, not people wanting to be close to a baseball stadium. why did it take 13 years if the ballpark is a catalyst for residential development? shall we include merchants row, future free press redevopment, book caddy and midtown as stadium spin offs? the markets changed and it wasnt because stadiums were erected...

[Bham1982]

Bham, you're cherry-picking the discussion to support your position.

First it's "new" construction.

Illitch is promising new construction. His track record shows no new construction.

Now it's renovated "directly", as if there was some sort of stadium/development quid pro quo.

If taxpayers are being asked to pony up money, it's reasonable to see evidence of economic spinoffs.

Why should taxpayers give money to Illitch for TGI Fridays and Jimmy Johns?
That's economic development?

And, no, just picking out any random development downtown and saying it's because of Comerica is nonsense. There was plenty of downtown development before Comerica.

The Fox, Gem, State, Elwood, and many, many others predate Comerica, and are [[or were) all right across the street. How do you explain these improvements in the absense of Comerica?

[ghettopalmetto]

thats part of a larger trend of people wanting urban living, not people wanting to be close to a baseball stadium. why did it take 13 years if the ballpark is a catalyst for residential development? shall we include merchants row, future free press redevopment, book caddy and midtown as stadium spin offs? the markets changed and it wasnt because stadiums were erected...

Stated another way:

Are there cities and neighborhoods across the United States that have apartments, bars, restaurants, and stores WITHOUT having the benefit of a nearby major league sports stadium?

[MSUguy]

Bham, you're cherry-picking the discussion to support your position.

First it's "new" construction.

Now it's renovated "directly", as if there was some sort of stadium/development quid pro quo.

Folks have already pointed out the Broderick, and soon to be the Whitney, and so on. Also the Milner turning into apts.

I think the Live Detroit incentives, the influx of downtown workers and a generally stronger hotel market are more responsible the developments like the Broderick and Whitney. Ilitch made the same entertainment district promise when Comerica was proposed. What's been built? Nothing. The renovations like those on Park Ave. have come in spite of Mike Ilitch. He's owned the Detroit Life Building and the Blenheim Apts since the 80's, but those buildings are still sitting vacant meanwhile smaller investors have renovated their buildings.

[Bham1982]

Stated another way:

Are there cities and neighborhoods across the United States that have apartments, bars, restaurants, and stores WITHOUT having the benefit of a nearby major league sports stadium?

Let's look at the strongest U.S. downtowns.

NYC- Manhattan has only one sports arena [[MSG), and it's considered an eyesore. The city wants it demolished and replaced, in favor of an expanded Penn Station and new office towers.

SF- Nothing right downtown. Baseball park is close, but not really walking distance to the downtown core.

Chicago- Soldier Field is downtown, but does nothing for the surroundings. Other parks are a ways from downtown.

Philly- Nothing downtown.

Boston- The arena is downtown, and sort of a dead zone. Fenway area is lively, but a bit outside of downtown.

DC- basketball arena is downtown, and area is fairly lively. Nothing else right downtown.

I don't think sports arenas are bad for downtowns [[except maybe in extreme high economic activity zones like Midtown Manhattan, where other uses are more productive), but I don't think they're a key ingredient. I think we should encourage Illitch to build, but should be very wary of spending tax dollars. Maybe a little for infrastructure and the like, but definitely no hundreds of millions. If we have that kind of money, invest it in higher education, transit, or really anything else.

[emu steve]

Let's look at the strongest U.S. downtowns.

NYC- Manhattan has only one sports arena [[MSG), and it's considered an eyesore. The city wants it demolished and replaced, in favor of an expanded Penn Station and new office towers.

SF- Nothing right downtown. Baseball park is close, but not really walking distance to the downtown core.

Chicago- Soldier Field is downtown, but does nothing for the surroundings. Other parks are a ways from downtown.

Philly- Nothing downtown.

Boston- The arena is downtown, and sort of a dead zone. Fenway area is lively, but a bit outside of downtown.

DC- basketball arena is downtown, and area is fairly lively. Nothing else right downtown.

I don't think sports arenas are bad for downtowns [[except maybe in extreme high economic activity zones like Midtown Manhattan, where other uses are more productive), but I don't think they're a key ingredient. I think we should encourage Illitch to build, but should be very wary of spending tax dollars. Maybe a little for infrastructure and the like, but definitely no hundreds of millions. If we have that kind of money, invest it in higher education, transit, or really anything else.

Cleveland's is in their downtown.

Ditto baltimore.

Pittsburgh?

Cincinnati?