Ilitch Proposes Stadium and Events Center

[gthomas]

Ilitch check this out..This can be a cool way to connect downtown and midtown over I-75 freeway on Woodward, include retail and restaurants.

[rb336]

"Even with tax breaks, the developed land will pay more in taxes than it does currently. Add to that additional taxes from new businesses, residents and employees and it will end up a net gain. It's a "you give us X now, and you will get X+Y" deal. That is not a funnel. It's an investment. In this case, a good one."

Except that independent studies done of these kinds of deals show exactly the opposite. Giving X doesn't lead to X+Y. That's doubly true when Y is being funneled back to Mike Ilitch. Even in Detroit, that math doesn't add up.

I'd love to read one. please provide a link

[Gistok]

Ilitch check this out..This can be a cool way to connect downtown and midtown over I-75 freeway on Woodward, include retail and restaurants.

Actually a bridge like that would be better for Park Ave., whose bridge was torn down during the last Fisher Fwy. redo. Park Ave. already has a lot of night life in some parts. An arena west of Park in Foxtown would ideal... although if it were north of I-75, then Park Ave. would still be an ideal choice.

I bet this bridge in Bath England [[called Pulteney Bridge) was the inspiration for the one in Columbus.... from the foreground until the dome in the midground... all shops are on a bridge...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Pu...idge_shops.jpg

[gthomas]

Now that was quick...

Quote:

New Red Wings arena in Detroit Ok'd by Michigan Senate LANSING, MI - A divided Michigan Senate on Wednesday approved fast-tracked legislation that the Ilitch family says is needed for an events center that could house a new Red Wings arena in downtown Detroit. The proposed mixed-use development would be funded by private investment and existing dollars collected by the city's Downtown Development Authority. No new taxes would be needed to build the development, but lawmakers are passing a bill to allow the DDA to continue to get money for these kinds of developments. The legislation was sent back to the House for final action before year's end.

http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/in..._river_default

[Novine]

Studies from the past 25 years and recent articles highlighting the research done in this area.


"Yet, with a unanimity that is rare in social science research, academic studies have found that professional sports franchises and facilities generate little or no job creation or income growth. For example, "natural experiments" of the economic impact on cities of work stoppages in baseball and hockey during the last two decades found no impact on retail activity or employment in affected cities, an indicator of the trivial weight of professional sports in metropolitan economies."


Is There an Economic Rationale For Subsidizing Sports Stadiums? [[1987)
http://heartland.org/policy-document...ports-stadiums


Should Cities Pay for Sports Facilities? [[2001)
http://www.stlouisfed.org/publicatio...ticles/?id=468


Newark Arena’s Economic Impact Unclear [[2007)
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/04/ny...04arenanj.html


A Closer Look at Stadium Subsidies [[2008)
http://www.american.com/archive/2008...dium-subsidies


Do Basketball Arenas Spur Economic Development? [[2012)
http://www.theatlanticcities.com/job...elopment/2804/


No economic rationale for subsidizing an arena [[2012)
http://www.jsonline.com/news/opinion...178214961.html

[Novine]

Wattrick takes a swing at the happy talk coming from the Ilitch boosters.

http://www.deadlinedetroit.com/artic...y_arena_debate

[ghettopalmetto]

Wattrick takes a swing at the happy talk coming from the Ilitch boosters.

http://www.deadlinedetroit.com/artic...y_arena_debate

Beyond the economics, it seems that in whatever city, the immediate area of the arena is a dead zone most of the time. Even around Verizon Center in DC--which is hailed as a model for seamless integration of an arena into the urban fabric and transit network--it's the deadest spot in the neighborhood, save for the hour before and after an event. The adjacent blocks, with the restaurants, bars, museums, and movie theaters, have more pedestrian activity the rest of the time. Is a hockey arena going to generate throngs of Saturday afternoon shoppers or Sunday brunchgoers in downtown Detroit?

If the end goal is to build this arena "in order to spark redevelopment"...why not just sink money directly into bars and restaurants? Seems that would be a more cost-effective way to eliminate a middleman, and generate more consistent foot traffic. And there would at least be a mechanism present where the City and State could earn repayment [[with interest) on their investment.

I think, however, that the unstated purpose of such an arena is to funnel cash--via high-dollar suite and club seat sales--into Mike Ilitch's bank account. If this public parasite were genuinely interested in his legacy, as claimed above, he would put forth his own money instead of resorting to his Welfare Queen act yet again. Andrew Carnegie, this guy is not.

[Shollin]

I prefer empty lots and derelict buildings instead of an arena.

[ghettopalmetto]

I prefer empty lots and derelict buildings instead of an arena.

Ilitch owns plenty of those too.

[Novine]

Hey Shillen', if this is such a grand idea, private investors will be lining up to underwrite Mr. I's visions for downtown. No need for Mr. I to feed at the public trough.

[Shollin]

Hey Shillen', if this is such a grand idea, private investors will be lining up to underwrite Mr. I's visions for downtown. No need for Mr. I to feed at the public trough.

Hey Niven If any investment in Detroit was a grand idea, investors would be linning up to underwrite any development in Detroit. The government needs to facilitate the development, just like they do with Dan Gilbert and the creative types and their start ups.

[michimoby]

Now that was quick...

Quote:

New Red Wings arena in Detroit Ok'd by Michigan Senate LANSING, MI - A divided Michigan Senate on Wednesday approved fast-tracked legislation that the Ilitch family says is needed for an events center that could house a new Red Wings arena in downtown Detroit. The proposed mixed-use development would be funded by private investment and existing dollars collected by the city's Downtown Development Authority. No new taxes would be needed to build the development, but lawmakers are passing a bill to allow the DDA to continue to get money for these kinds of developments. The legislation was sent back to the House for final action before year's end.

http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/in..._river_default

Pardon my language, but how the FUCK can this pass only two days after being pushed through, yet we've been waiting for an RTA bill to be passed for over a decade????

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills!

[DetroitPlanner]

Ilitch check this out..This can be a cool way to connect downtown and midtown over I-75 freeway on Woodward, include retail and restaurants.

Looks like someone in Toronto went to Ohio State University.
http://maps.google.com/maps?q=columb...lin,+Ohio&z=19

In fact it is OSU South Campus!!

[313rd]

Check out the Jobing.com Arena in Arizona, which is a "entertainment district"

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=9400+...ed=0CC8Q8gEwAA

Also, check out the Southside Works property in Pittsburgh, a 40 Acre mixed use developement, which I feel could compliment a new stadium.

https://maps.google.com/maps?ie=UTF-...d=0CKQBEPwSMAk

[southen]

i think what CAN make this different is the residential included. a strictly entertainment only district i think is set up to fail in the city at this time, but if they do include residential like said in the article i think that changes things and lends itself to more spinoff if a neighborhood can be created.

are there any examples out there of stadium developments that have included residential? if so, what were the results of that?

[emu steve]

Beyond the economics, it seems that in whatever city, the immediate area of the arena is a dead zone most of the time. Even around Verizon Center in DC--which is hailed as a model for seamless integration of an arena into the urban fabric and transit network--it's the deadest spot in the neighborhood, save for the hour before and after an event. The adjacent blocks, with the restaurants, bars, museums, and movie theaters, have more pedestrian activity the rest of the time. Is a hockey arena going to generate throngs of Saturday afternoon shoppers or Sunday brunchgoers in downtown Detroit?

If the end goal is to build this arena "in order to spark redevelopment"...why not just sink money directly into bars and restaurants? Seems that would be a more cost-effective way to eliminate a middleman, and generate more consistent foot traffic. And there would at least be a mechanism present where the City and State could earn repayment [[with interest) on their investment.

I think, however, that the unstated purpose of such an arena is to funnel cash--via high-dollar suite and club seat sales--into Mike Ilitch's bank account. If this public parasite were genuinely interested in his legacy, as claimed above, he would put forth his own money instead of resorting to his Welfare Queen act yet again. Andrew Carnegie, this guy is not.

I'd like to challenge your 'facts'.

I live in the D.C. area and quite familiar with that area.

The Gallery Place area which encompasses the arena, the whole area, subway stop, etc. is among the most vibrant areas in D.C. It is NYC in D.C.

Likewise, the Nationals' Park area in Southeast [[M. Street and S Capitol to be exact) was once once an old gritty industrial area devoid of business, people, etc. People didn't even drive through that area unless they wanted to go to the out-of-the-way strip clubs.

For every example of stupid development placing a stadium or arena, probably in the 'burbs, and getting nothing significant of it [[I really am not fond of Phoenix putting their facilities in far out Glendale, but Phoenix is nothing more than a suburb without a real downtown, to speak).

The are very nice articles what the new Brooklyn arena is doing for the area.

BOTTOM LINE:

What Detroit is and will do with Comerica, Ford Field and a new arena near by is EXACTLY the right way to invigorate a CBD.

Sorry guys, but Ilitch [[and I) will take that belief to our graves.

I've seen stupid sports facilities [[FedEx field in Landover, Md is about a dumb and dumb can get) and I've seen smart. Yankee Stadium to me is a waste - beautiful, luxurious facility in a completely non-nondescript neighbor. When I went to the new Yankee Stadium the year it opened, I went to the Tigers' game and immediately left. Stay for what????

[emu steve]

hate to discuss facilities and development other than Detroit but here is Michael Wilbon who knows D.C. and D.C. sports better than almost anyone.

Abe Pollin is almost singlehandedly credited with the development of the 'old' D.C. [[the area east of 14th street) when he built his new arena above a subway stop...

Redevelopment happened and happened and happened and now that area from 14th Street to Capitol Hill is essentially all developed and the city decided to concentrate on new areas such as the Nationals' Park area, and other areas such as "NoMa" and next up is the Southwest waterfront.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...112404085.html

" the mid-1990s, nearly 30 years after the riots tore through Washington, D.C., parts of downtown looked as if the violence had happened only recently. This Story

• Online only: A man who reached out to others
  
• Long-standing loyalty
  
• Abe Pollin: 1923-2009

View All Items in This Story


Buildings, somehow, were still burned out and empty. Shops and restaurants were scarce in certain parts. It was a fright, to tell you the truth -- until 1997, when a downtown arena, home to the Wizards and Capitals, opened and changed the city. Abe Pollin built it with his own money, his own financing, and in short order changed the quality of life in the Nation's Capital.

[rb336]

Is There an Economic Rationale For Subsidizing Sports Stadiums? [[1987)
http://heartland.org/policy-document...ports-stadiums

When the very first one you list comes from the same people who gave us the "there is no proof that smoking cigarettes is dangerous" and "global warming is fiction" bullshit, and the second is written by a fellow of THAT SAME INSTITUTION, I have no reason to find any validity to them. They claim things like

Although sports facilities certainly generate tax revenues from their sales, the pertinent question is whether these revenues are above and beyond what would have occurred in the region anyway."

they then fail to provide any comparables [[aka "support for their hypotheses)

One of the articles DOES state

A new or revamped stadium can produce some benefit, Dr. Humphrey[[says - oops to NYT copy editor), if the project is integrated with things like residential housing and retail stores and coordinated into “a complete local redevelopment plan.”

That is EXACTLY what the Ilitches' plan does

Further, look at the area around the stadiums - then look at it BEFORE the stadiums. Empty edifices, nothing going on.

[Bham1982]

I'd like to challenge your 'facts'.]

I live in the D.C. area and quite familiar with that area.

The Gallery Place area which encompasses the arena, the whole area, subway stop, etc. is among the most vibrant areas in D.C. It is NYC in D.C.

Yes and no.

Gallery Place is among the more vibrant areas of DC [[to call it a mini-NYC would be quite a stretch though), but it's more in spite of the arena.

The area is busy because it's a Metro transfer hub. The arena itself is the deadest block in that whole neighborhood.

Similarly, if you look at other urban arenas, they tend to be dead spaces. Even Comerica and Ford Field [[which are really nice facilities, built about as nicely as possible considering when they were built) have created a permanent dead space for everything east of Woodward.

As long as there's no event in that corner of Downtown [[which is most of the time), there's nothing but blank walls and empty parking lots. Granted, that area probably wouldn't look much different if the arenas had been built somewhere else [[and there are definite economic spinoffs for restaurant, bar hotel and parking lot operators), but it stretches the imagination to say that arenas build streetlife and activity.

[Bham1982]

Buildings, somehow, were still burned out and empty. Shops and restaurants were scarce in certain parts. It was a fright, to tell you the truth -- until 1997, when a downtown arena, home to the Wizards and Capitals, opened and changed the city. Abe Pollin built it with his own money, his own financing, and in short order changed the quality of life in the Nation's Capital.

You're conflating correlation and causation, IMO.

Yes, Eastern Downtown DC [[basically everything east of 14th Street) was a dump 20 years ago, and now it's quite nice, but it has nothing to do with building a basketball arena.

DC has enjoyed a virutally permanent economic boom [[thanks to govt. spending and the related lawyers and lobbyists) and the old downtown core, pressed for space, has slowly shifted eastwards.

If the arena were never built, they would have built an office building or some other more economically productive use. Downtown DC has undergone signficant office expansion that totally transformed the Gallery Place area.

Sometimes it's better to build in a more nondescript neighborhood. With your Yankee Stadium example, it's far better to put the stadium in the Outer Boroughs than in, say, Manhattan. You would be wasting very economically valuable land for seasonal usage.

[gthomas]

Uummm, can people get off the issue of a "Dead Zone Development", claiming what the new arena will bring to the already "Dead Zone"...which one will you prefer over. First off, Ilitch repeatedly mentioned that it will include "RESIDENTIAL, OFFICE AND RETAIL"...including the Arena. How can this be a dead zone, where you have visitors and citizens shopping, living and working next to the arena? Now can we move on and focus on the positive spinoff this will create, and lets not forget JOBS and tax revenue due to such development.

[Bham1982]

Uummm, can people get off the issue of a "Dead Zone Development", claiming what the new arena will bring to the already "Dead Zone"...which one will you prefer over.

Illitch is welcome to build, and I don't think anyone is against a new arena downtown.

The issue is whether they want a half-billion of taxpayer dollars flushed down the toilet for nothing.

Every economist agrees that sports events are just discretionary spending, and the dollar you spend on the Wings is a dollar you don't spend somewhere else.

And the Wings already play downtown, to sold-out crowds, so there would be no more public benefit to downtown than the current scenario [[though there would be a huge benefit to Illitch, who would have luxury suite revenue).

First off, Ilitch repeatedly mentioned that it will include "RESIDENTIAL, OFFICE AND RETAIL"...including the Arena.
How can this be a dead zone, where you have visitors and citizens shopping, living and working next to the arena?

Why would you believe in this scenario? Because Illitch says so?

If someone wants to build an office building in the Cass Corridor, they are welcome to do so, right now. I don't think a hockey arena two blocks away vs. a hockey arena eight blocks away would make any difference.

Do you see this scenario next to Ford Field, Comerica Park, or JLA? You think the 4th time will be the charm, and Wings games will attract Louis Vuitton or Morgan Stanley to Cass Ave.?

Comerica Park has been open for 13 years, and draws four times the annual Red Wings attendance. Curiously, there hasn't been any new development around Comerica Park. It's all parking lots.

[southen]

i dont think the stadium alone would bring much added benefit, you have to have the other components as well. so i agree with you in a sense bham, but comparing the two locations and calling them equal, joe louis to foxtown, is just silly. joe louis cant create spinoff because it is isolated. claiming that it would be essentially the same thing despite being integrated differently into the city does a disservice to your argument.

[Bham1982]

claiming that it would be essentially the same thing despite being integrated differently into the city does a disservice to your argument.

Well, there's two issues you bring up. Physical location and economic impact.

I agree that JLA is integrated differently, so that adjacent development can't occur, but the net economic impact on downtown should be the same. In both cases, you're bringing roughly 20,000 folks downtown for a couple hours, with the same potential for spinoff.

In the case of Comerica, however, you do have an analagous situation. There hasn't been one new construction building around Comerica.

If Illitch wants to build office buildings and the like, and truly belives that sports events are the necessary trigger, he has a tabula rasa all around Comerica.

[gthomas]

Again why are people claiming Comerica Park and Ford Field didn't contribute to any development downtown or redevelopment. Why is the Grand Circus Park area one of the most attractive downtown, I can name several reasons why most restaurants, businesses, and even resident [[Uuumm can you say Broderick Tower) came downtown for. Most bars and restaurants will tell you that they came Downtown due to Comerica Park and the people from it, flooding there businesses.

On none game night is a different story...so if you thinking Comerica Park and Ford Field hasn't played any contribution to the synergy Downtown then your lost. It may not be much, but some has came from it. We do have a longs way to go, but how do we know the reason not developing around the stadiums and arena for years wasn't going to lead to bigger plans down the line. This announcement could of cleared all the spaces of undeveloped vacant lots..we will see, hopefully.