Ilitch Proposes Stadium and Events Center

[Gistok]

I know that his "Agora" on Columbia Street [[wtih a Hard Rock Cafe on the corner at Woodward never came to fruition as well)... but with discussions of financing at the state level... one would tend to take things a little more seriously than just a newspaper article. I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt on this one... rather than just be an armchair critic...

[JVB]

I suppose you think Wrigley Field is an eyesore that drags down Chicago, too?

I love the history of the old stadium and didn't support a new one at the time. I avoided CoPa for several years until I finally gave in. The reality is CoPa is a far nicer stadium and I eventually learned to accept that. As the years have gone on and new memories at Comerica are formed I begin to love it more and more. It truly is one of the most beautiful parks I've been to, with only PNC in Pittsburgh being nicer in my opinion.

Comparing Tiger Stadium to Wrigley [[or Fenway for that matter) is a tough sell, despite their common era. The surrounding neighborhoods and design of those stadiums are something quite different than what we had on the Corner.

[Gistok]

The surrounding neighborhoods and design of those stadiums are something quite different than what we had on the Corner.

Oh, I don't know... I found all those empty weed strewn residential lots used 81 days a year for parking and rarely maintaiined, added a bit of "Ghetto" charm to Corktown...

[[Sarcasm alert off)

[gnome]

I'm a little tired of This Sally Rand Fan Dance. Show what you got and forget the cat n mouse act.

he has been teasing about the United Artist, he was suppose to do something with the Madison-Lenox by now ... I admire the guy, but jeeze, the peekaboo act is weak.

[gthomas]

Residential and Office is planned..hhmm can I say "Eddystone and Park Ave Hotel"?

From Motor City Casino down to Masonic Temple/Cass Park redevelopment, down to Foxtown. You can bet there will be connectivity to all venues, this is going to be grand! $650 millions goes a long way, the arena going to cost around $350 million leaving over $150 million more for the retail, residential and office portion.

I was hoping a Hotel was included in the proposed development, but having residential and office will ensure daily foot traffic in the area on non-game nights. I hope he builds the arena south of I-75 behind the Fox Theater, place all residential, retail and office north of I-75 along Woodward creating a continuous streetwall of Midsize buildiings. Hopefully, integrate the Eddystone and Park Ave Hotel into residential and office too. Build a few parking garages behind the two buildings along Cass Ave and between Masonic Temple with ground floor retail.

This is the Staple Center/ L.A Live, this a image of how I see the placement of buildings with the arena to the south and other development north of it.

[Novine]

The DDA siphons off all of the new tax revenue from development downtown to benefit the properties downtown. Now Ilitch is going to siphon off the tax dollars collected by the DDA to benefit --- himself! But it "won't be coming from your wallet!" That may be true for those of us in the suburbs but it's absolutely not true for those taxpayers in Detroit. Ilitch and company have conspired with the the likes of Geo. Jackson to create a system where the taxes they pay get funneled right back to them. But what do you expect from the Party that claims that government shouldn't pick winners and losers.

[Shollin]

Only in Detroit can a city be 40% vacant and people will bitch and moan about 1 of 2 large investors in the city. Illitch invested in the city when no one else wanted to. Most owners would've moved the Red Wings to the Palace about 20 years ago.

[downtownguy]

Only in Detroit can a city be 40% vacant and people will bitch and moan about 1 of 2 large investors in the city. Illitch invested in the city when no one else wanted to. Most owners would've moved the Red Wings to the Palace about 20 years ago.

Your oversimplification is incredible. There was substantial residential [[Trolley Plaza, Millender Center, Riverfront Apartments, Stroh River Place, Lofts at Rivertown, Harbortown, etc.) and commercial [[Ren Cen 500 & 600, 150 West Jefferson, Stroh River Place, etc.) investment in the 80s prior to Ilitch. If it wasn't for Chuck Forbes investment in the theatre district in the 70s and 80s, there wouldn't have been a Fox for Ilitch to steal. He put up very little of his own money, instead using city muscle [[to "acquire" the Fox) and city loans to speculate and, yes, he was successful. When he purchased the Red Wings, he assumed a sweetheart lease on JLA but did very little to attract shows to the venue, instead choosing to make it his own private, low rent arena. [[Remember when Karmanos wanted to move the Junior Wings there but was told to go elsewhere?) Back then, as he did with Tiger Stadium and the CoPa, and as he appears to be doing now, he has always been feeding at the taxpayer's trough. I will admit he does deserve some credit. But most of what he has built, he has done so on the back of the taxpayer. He is the biggest welfare queen in the state of Michigan.

[downtownguy]

And then there's this from the Freep:

It [[the legislation) allows a downtown development authority in a city with a population greater than 600,000 to capture taxes, including school taxes, to help finance certain development projects. For a “catalyst development,” such as the Ilitch proposal, the captured taxes could be used as security for construction bonds. The bill also provides for exemptions from property taxes and transfer taxes.

This for the third richest man in the state of Michigan, with an estimated net worth of $2.4 billion [[that's $900 million more than Matty Moroun).

[JVB]

But what do you expect from the Party that claims that government shouldn't pick winners and losers.

Which Party is that?

[Shollin]

Your oversimplification is incredible. There was substantial residential [[Trolley Plaza, Millender Center, Riverfront Apartments, Stroh River Place, Lofts at Rivertown, Harbortown, etc.) and commercial [[Ren Cen 500 & 600, 150 West Jefferson, Stroh River Place, etc.) investment in the 80s prior to Ilitch. If it wasn't for Chuck Forbes investment in the theatre district in the 70s and 80s, there wouldn't have been a Fox for Ilitch to steal. He put up very little of his own money, instead using city muscle [[to "acquire" the Fox) and city loans to speculate and, yes, he was successful. When he purchased the Red Wings, he assumed a sweetheart lease on JLA but did very little to attract shows to the venue, instead choosing to make it his own private, low rent arena. [[Remember when Karmanos wanted to move the Junior Wings there but was told to go elsewhere?) Back then, as he did with Tiger Stadium and the CoPa, and as he appears to be doing now, he has always been feeding at the taxpayer's trough. I will admit he does deserve some credit. But most of what he has built, he has done so on the back of the taxpayer. He is the biggest welfare queen in the state of Michigan.

Dan Gilbert is almost a super hero to some on here, and he has done it on the backs on lucrative tax incentives. The 30 year lease signed by the Red Wings was before Illitch owned the team.

[Gistok]

In Ilitch's defense on the Fox issue... although the amount that Forbes got for the Fox has never been announced... Forbes was property rich, cash poor, like several other downtown building owners we can already name. Ilitch spent over $8 million on restoring the Fox Theatre, and more money on the building facade and offices.

Although Forbes got together enough money to restore the Gem [[before its' move), Chuck Forbes could only fix up the buildings he owned in small increments... and it was only thru the $14 million he got from the Stadium Authority [[for the YMCA, YWCA Wolverine Hotel and Elwood/Gem/Century land)... that he got the money for his move of the Gem/Century, Elwood Bar, and continuing the slow restoration of the Fillmore/State, where restoration was completed in all the lobbies, but the auditorium restoration is still yet to be done [[except for the procenium arch, which was restored).

So although Chuck Forbes is light years ahead in restoration [[you could call him "Detroit's Patron Saint of Historic Restoration")... he just didn't have deep enough pockets to do the absurdly massive and expensive Fox.

[downtownguy]

Dan Gilbert is almost a super hero to some on here, and he has done it on the backs on lucrative tax incentives. The 30 year lease signed by the Red Wings was before Illitch owned the team.

Read closely. I said Ilitch "assumed" the lease on JLA when he bought the team. The fact is, with Ilitch's low rent, he could have been more competitive in drawing events to JLA. But why bother when you're only paying $25,000 a month in rent? That's far less than it will cost him to maintain a new arena. He had a similar arrangement for Cobo Arena. Now, I am not maintaining that Cobo Arena and the Joe are on the same level as the Palace, but Ilitch could have marketed them as a lower cost alternative. The taxpayers were subsidizing his cost to occupy JLA in return for the expectation that Ilitch would have booked it for more than Red Wing hockey games. Every additional event at the Joe means more business at downtown pubs and restaurants, more wages for parking attendants and vendors, and more taxes in the city's kitty. I recall the same promise of an actively booked CoPa on non-baseball nights when he was pitching that to the taxpayers. I'll bet there's not more than a dozen non-baseball events at the CoPa every year.

You're right about Dan Gilbert. He has also done a good job of leveraging tax incentives. The difference is he is bringing far more employees downtown including new businesses, adding new construction, and purchasing long underutilized buildings. And, oh yeah. Gilbert puts people in the buildings he buys.

[Shollin]

Read closely. I said Ilitch "assumed" the lease on JLA when he bought the team. The fact is, with Ilitch's low rent, he could have been more competitive in drawing events to JLA. But why bother when you're only paying $25,000 a month in rent? That's far less than it will cost him to maintain a new arena. He had a similar arrangement for Cobo Arena. Now, I am not maintaining that Cobo Arena and the Joe are on the same level as the Palace, but Ilitch could have marketed them as a lower cost alternative. The taxpayers were subsidizing his cost to occupy JLA in return for the expectation that Ilitch would have booked it for more than Red Wing hockey games. Every additional event at the Joe means more business at downtown pubs and restaurants, more wages for parking attendants and vendors, and more taxes in the city's kitty. I recall the same promise of an actively booked CoPa on non-baseball nights when he was pitching that to the taxpayers. I'll bet there's not more than a dozen non-baseball events at the CoPa every year.

You're right about Dan Gilbert. He has also done a good job of leveraging tax incentives. The difference is he is bringing far more employees downtown including new businesses, adding new construction, and purchasing long underutilized buildings. And, oh yeah. Gilbert puts people in the buildings he buys.

Why is it Ilitch's fault Coleman Young hastily built an arena and gave a lucritive lease to a previous owner? The Palace has pretty much killed any chance for Joe Louis to book any large concert. According to Joe Louis website, they have plenty of smaller shows booked, about as much as the Palace. What is Comerica suppose to host? It's mostly unused during the winter so what is a baseball stadium suppose to host during the winter when a larger enclosed stadium is right next store? Ilitch tried for the Winter Classic to be played at Comerica but the NHL wanted to set an attendance record.

[DetroitPlanner]

Why is it Ilitch's fault Coleman Young hastily built an arena and gave a lucritive lease to a previous owner? The Palace has pretty much killed any chance for Joe Louis to book any large concert. According to Joe Louis website, they have plenty of smaller shows booked, about as much as the Palace. What is Comerica suppose to host? It's mostly unused during the winter so what is a baseball stadium suppose to host during the winter when a larger enclosed stadium is right next store? Ilitch tried for the Winter Classic to be played at Comerica but the NHL wanted to set an attendance record.

You can think creatively. Last year I was in Cleveland around Christmas. My main goal was to check out the economic development that has spurred up along the Euclid BRT line [[amazing but way off topic). They had a Christmas carnival going on in Jacobs Field [[if its still named that). Having hockey games in baseball stadiums also seems to be a growing trend.

BTW, JLA was not hastily built. It was built for the location. They could not sink it into the ground as it is too close to seawalls and is built on fill. They wanted it in that location to compliment Cobo for large conventions. It looks like heck now because it is old and was not meticulously maintained, and lets just face it, it was never a beauty to begin with. Original plans would have mitigated the issues with the stairs as it was to be connected with Cobo Hall via an extension of the 2nd floor [[Sports Hall of Fame) hallway, but that was removed to save costs. I never understood why they would not at least put awnings on those stairs seeing that they were to be mostly used in inclement weather.

My father spent 3 years of his life working on as part of the City engineering crew when I was a jr high school lad. It was my first experience in planning on a large scale. I got to go to work with him, review the plans, check the slump of the concrete, wear hardhats, the works.... It was an awesome experience, and I learned a great deal about what goes into building through inspection. but I digress again.... it sucks getting old but at least I got all my hair and hardly any of it is grey!

[jackie5275]

So let's say this new arena comes to fruitition & the Red Wings move there, what happens to JLA? Does it sit & rot like Tiger Stadium did?

[Shollin]

So let's say this new arena comes to fruitition & the Red Wings move there, what happens to JLA? Does it sit & rot like Tiger Stadium did?

It will be torn down to make room for Cobo expansion. I doubt there will be a lot of suburbanites clamoring to preserve Joe Louis with money they don't have.

[Novine]

"Which Party is that?"

The Republicans, who are sponsoring this bill and would have to vote it for it to pass. The same party that says government shouldn't be picking winners or losers but has no problem funneling taxpayer money to Mike Ilitch.

[Shollin]

You can think creatively. Last year I was in Cleveland around Christmas. My main goal was to check out the economic development that has spurred up along the Euclid BRT line [[amazing but way off topic). They had a Christmas carnival going on in Jacobs Field [[if its still named that). Having hockey games in baseball stadiums also seems to be a growing trend.

Comerica was to host the pre-winter classic events until the NHL canceled it. Detroit used to have a winter fest or winter carnival that was held in Campus Martius. Tiger Fest has since moved to Comerica. Don't forget Ilitch also laid out 12 million to upgrade the scoreboard at Comerica.

[Novine]

Mike Ilitch can do what he wants with his property and his money. The real question is why should taxpayers subsidize his development? Is that the best use of the tax dollars for City of Detroit residents? I'm sure we'll see juiced up claims from Geo. Jackson about how this is a "win" for Detroit. But I doubt there's going to be any independent analysis that will support that. Time and again, studies of the claims for "entertainment centers" have shown that the benefits are grossly overstated and the costs are offloaded onto taxpayers to the benefit of the private interests.

[Novine]

" Don't forget Ilitch also laid out 12 million to upgrade the scoreboard at Comerica."

Who does that benefit except Mike Ilitch? He should pay for it just like he should pay the cost for his development. Since he's set up the financing so that any taxes he pays comes right back to his direct benefit, it's not like the taxpayers are being made whole through their contribution to Mike's empire building.

[Shollin]

" Don't forget Ilitch also laid out 12 million to upgrade the scoreboard at Comerica."

Who does that benefit except Mike Ilitch? He should pay for it just like he should pay the cost for his development. Since he's set up the financing so that any taxes he pays comes right back to his direct benefit, it's not like the taxpayers are being made whole through their contribution to Mike's empire building.

It benefits the 3 million fans who went to Tigers games last year.

[Shollin]

People beg for development and then don't want to pay for it.

[Shollin]

It seems like Joe Louis is doing pretty well for the city of Detroit. What wasn't mentioned in the lease in this thread is the city of Detroit also collects a share of suite leases, concessions, ticket surcharge, and parking fees and they still pay 252,000 annually in land use tax. The city of Detroit averages about 2 million annually in revenue from Joe Louis. Not such a sweetheart deal for Ilitch anymore.

http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article...ith-jla-talks#

[Novine]

"People beg for development and then don't want to pay for it."

You're right, people don't want to subsidize the profits of multi-millionaires.