Pistons dwindling attendance renews calls for team to move downtown.

[rb336]

yeah, but still worlds above the pistons in terms of % of capacity, and it came with he worst season in NFL history

[Shollin]

yeah, but still worlds above the pistons in terms of % of capacity, and it came with he worst season in NFL history

They still had the worst percentage in the entire NFL. The NFL always draws better than the NBA. Not sure your point here.

[Shollin]

What's funny is the Lions still have yet to reach the lowest attendance number they had in the Silverdome in their final decade. In fact, attendance declined sharply their first year in Ford Field.

[EastsideAl]

Ford Field has 15,000 fewer seats than the Silverdome.

[bailey]

In your mind "bigger capacity = better." Which explains why nearly all similar venues are getting smaller

YOU are the one that has framed the entire discussion about attendance.

I'm not basing the burbs, although I will admit to bashing some specific 'burbs, sometimes because they deserve it, other times in jest. Of course the Palace isn't as obsolete as the Joe. It's 10 years younger and the joe was built on the cheap.

Then replacing it is the epitome of the negative results of suburban sprawl. you're advocating abandoning a perfectly good building that is still a thriving venue to construct a DIRECT competitor and render the existing building redundant.

funneling the much bigger capacity of patrons through those skinny concourses is, by definition, cramped. Compare it to Ford Field. [[as a tall person, I don't fit well in the seats of any arena or stadium I've ever been in)

Ford Field has 3x the capacity... it follows that its concourses should be larger. apples to oranges.
Also, at 6'6" neither do I, but no stadium is designed for anyone over average height... what is your point?

You mean one built, from the start, to accommodate both? backing off on your hyperbole, I see.

Never have I said otherwise. No arena in today's Detroit gets built without a dual purpose. That is a given.

That was at the Silverdome

completely undermines your point about location then as the Silverdome was far more isolated in it's day.

So does Ford Field. No one has EVER talked about the Palace operations - first-rate group all the way. And yes, I AM talking about the building and its location. The location actually is, itself, obsolete.

I don't disagree that IF a new arena is built, it's probably going downtown... if only because Gores is going to need to partner with Illitch to build it. However, as I've repeatedly [[and consistently) said....that is likely 20 years away.

No, it isn't even close. Check the Barclays or even the United Center and you will understand.

Let me put it this way, it's kept up. YES it's not "the cutting edge" but it's no where near the bottom.

I never said that wasn't correct. I merely said yours was a stupid comment. It did not "set the standard" for the last twenty years. It may have had 6, until the Kiel [[Scottrade) center opened in St Louis.

Are you fucking dense? read up on the thread to others comments on the innovations the Palace was first to implement which became the benchmark for all new stadium construction. I'm not going to repeat what is common knowledge for you as you remain committed to willful ignorance on the matter.

When did Illitch say that? Sorry, but I don't see a man like illitch plopping down $100,000 plus to two architectural firms for something he's not going to do. With that ONE statement, you thoroughly undermined your credibility on the subject...

I'm sorry you think 100k is a lot of money for Olympia to drop on some PR. How's the Maddison Lennox redevelopment coming along?
[[.38 seconds of google from when he was trying to buy the pistons...freep reprint of this was inaccessable)

TORONTO -- Mike Ilitch, owner of the Detroit Red Wings and Detroit Tigers, continues to work towards adding the Detroit Pistons and their related properties to his sports and entertainment portfolio."We're getting close -- real close," Ilitch said Monday night at the Hockey Hall of Fame, where he is an honored member and was attending the induction ceremony of Jimmy Devellano, senior vice president of the Wings and Tigers.
If Ilitch completes the purchase of the Pistons, the question is where the Pistons and Red Wings would play in the short term and long term.
Ilitch, a longtime supporter of downtown Detroit, ideally wants the Pistons to move downtown and join the Wings in a new arena.
The Pistons play at the Palace of Auburn Hills, which remains state of the art but is located in the northern suburbs. The Wings play at Joe Louis Arena, which is outdated but downtown -- close to many season-ticket holders, especially the fan base in Canada. Speculation has the Wings moving to the Palace, at least temporarily, until a new downtown arena is built.
Could Ilitch ever see the Wings at the Palace?
"Well, I don't want to get into all that," Ilitch said. "We're going to build a stadium in Detroit. But I've got to work out ... I want two teams in one building. That's all I can tell you."

and then you double-down on the absurd with this

Again, what is absurd about the comment? Detroit is bankrupt, local and regional politics is dominated by anti detroit, anti tax, anti spending teabaggers. Show me the evidence there will be public support in the relm of half to 3/4 of a BILLION in public money to build a stadium for the Wings alone? or even a dual use? I mean, for christ sake, this region can't figure out how to build a 3 mile long trolley even when much of the heavy lifing is being done by private money. You think that doing something 10x more expensive is gonna happen?

Bill Davidson built the palace with his money. Illitch COULD HAVE built one with his. Clearly he's not going to.. if we look to the CoPa construction as a guide. Maybe as he gets closer to death, he'll decide otherwise. But again, that only leaves him with the one sport stadium clocking in 1 billion [[if we're looking at Barclays ...which is the newest IIRC) invested....which is half his net worth. Further we're looking at no hockey season this year, perhaps no hockey next year and when it does come back a radically altered hockey landscape in both league structure and revenue sharing.

As someone posted way up on the thread... it's more likely that the Wings decamp to the Palace for a few years than it is the Pistons move downtown anytime in anything resembling the near term.

[Hypestyles]

i wonder would there ever be a one-off "special exhibition" held somewhere to test the waters.. heh..

[jackie5275]

Did a straw poll around my workplace on this subject. Most folks tell me it's not the drive to the Palace, but the Pistons' record that would keep them away. If the team was winning, they'd go to a game.

Interestingly, I know someone who takes an MTA shuttle from Great Lakes Crossing to Flint for work daily. He's commented that it's always packed with folks from all over the region & Ontario. Now GLC is only a few miles north of the Palace. This tells me that if someone wants to go somewhere, shopping, a sports event, a concert, badly enough, the drive won't stop them.

[Shollin]

Ford Field has 15,000 fewer seats than the Silverdome.

You would have a point if Ford Field was selling close to capacity, but it was hovering around 85%. People came when they started winning. Moving downtown wasn't some magic bullet for a bad team.

[jefferson78]

Did a straw poll around my workplace on this subject. Most folks tell me it's not the drive to the Palace, but the Pistons' record that would keep them away. If the team was winning, they'd go to a game.

Interestingly, I know someone who takes an MTA shuttle from Great Lakes Crossing to Flint for work daily. He's commented that it's always packed with folks from all over the region & Ontario. Now GLC is only a few miles north of the Palace. This tells me that if someone wants to go somewhere, shopping, a sports event, a concert, badly enough, the drive won't stop them.

Good for you. You must live in Northern Oakland County then. Because anyone living south or southwest of the Palace would think differently. I did a similar poll at my workplace and one out of 15 people said they would consider going. The location of the stadium being a large factor. The other being the non-competitive team.
I am a basketball fan and the only way I would go to a game at the Palace is if someone gave me tickets, on a weekend, and offered to drive. Otherwise, forget it. I might make the trip if it was a must-see concert, like U2 or something. But to think that anyone would put up with that drive just to go shopping is insane. I despise that area. Overbuilt, overpopulated and over-rated.

[401don]

FYI, Pistons have won 5 straight home games. The team is rebuilding with some exciting young pieces, including 2 quality bigs. If folks think it's that hard to pay 5 or 10 bucks to go see this team, they aren't very good fans. I would much rather see a very young team showing potential than a veteran team with a .500 record any day.

[j to the jeremy]

What did I miss? What got renovated? I was there a week or two ago and it seemed like nothing had changed since my last visit - 6-7 years ago.

http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/in...ure_pisto.html

[corktownyuppie]

Well just when you think we had this figured out....

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
Tuesday, December 4, 2012
ILITCH ORGANIZATION EXPLORING DEVELOPMENT OF NEW RESIDENTIAL, RETAIL, OFFICE AND EVENTS CENTER DISTRICT
IN DOWNTOWN DETROIT

DETROIT, MI – The Ilitch organization today announced it is taking a step forward with the public sector to explore the viability of a partnership to support the development of an innovative district in Detroit’s downtown core comprised of residential, retail and office facilities, anchored by a new state-of-the-art, multi-purpose events center. The Ilitch organization is supporting House Bill 5463, as amended today, that allows the Downtown Development Authority [[DDA) to continue capturing existing funds that would support a catalytic development in Detroit.

“It’s always been my dream to once again see a vibrant downtown Detroit,” said Mike Ilitch, chairman, Ilitch Holdings, Inc. “From the time we bought the Fox Theatre, I could envision a downtown where the streets were bustling and people were energized. It’s been a slow process at times, but we’re getting there now and a lot of great people are coming together to make it happen. It’s going to happen and I want to keep us moving toward that vision.”

The Ilitch organization is now preparing to make another substantial investment in the development of a new residential, retail, office and entertainment district in downtown Detroit, adding to the more than $1.9 billion the Ilitch companies have already invested.

“We have a tremendous opportunity through a large-scale project to make a positive impact on our community,” said Christopher Ilitch, president and CEO of Ilitch Holdings, Inc. “A project of this magnitude requires continued due diligence and a strategic partnership with the public sector. Working together we can ensure this opportunity connects Detroit’s existing set of initiatives and assets strengthening the downtown core and enhancing the image of our city, state and region.”

The sum of the total mixed-use development in the district, including residential, retail, office facilities and events center, is approximately $650 million, which incorporates a significant private investment supplemented by existing dollars currently collected by the DDA supporting economic development and requiring no new taxes.

“This plan makes good business sense for two reasons,” said George W. Jackson, Jr., president and CEO of Detroit Economic Growth Corporation. “First, it’s not a plan for an isolated, single-use structure. Instead, it builds on the clear successes we’ve already had downtown integrating districts that feature entertainment, and support commercial, retail and residential development around them. Second, it doesn’t impose any new tax burdens; it simply continues a program for retiring debt related to economic development. It’s hard to argue with that.”

The building of the new district is anticipated to create approximately 5,500 jobs for the events center alone and approximately 8,300 jobs for the entire residential and commercial mixed-use district. Michigan can anticipate an estimated economic impact of $1.8 billion from the completion of this district.

Case studies throughout the country reveal the most successful districts include a public-private partnership that support a balance of residential, business, education, cultural, sports and entertainment activities embedded with public spaces.
“Leadership in communities such as Columbus [[OH), Los Angeles, San Diego and Indianapolis have shown how prudently created partnerships can create new downtown neighborhoods and spur growth in the population and increase the levels of activity and vitality in central cities,” said Professor Mark S. Rosentraub, University of Michigan. “In those cases, districts anchored by events centers led to the creation of financially viable and successful new neighborhoods that are economically and socially integrated.”

While the exact location of the district has not been determined, it will be strategically located to serve some of the most underutilized areas in Detroit’s downtown core, strengthening the link between Detroit’s existing assets through a continuous, walkable environment connecting one district to the next and serving to improve the quality of life for residents and visitors alike.

Passage of House Bill 5463, sponsored by Representative John Walsh [[R-Livonia), will allow the public and private sector partners to begin the next steps in the process to develop the structure, scope and timeline of this economic development project.
– ODM –

[Trueblood]

The Pistons aren't drawing fans because they are terrible. When they were good and going to the ECF every year, they were leading the NBA in attendence. I wouldn't be opposed to a new Red Wings/Pistons arena, but it makes no sense for the Pistons. The Palace is a fine building. Still one of the best in the NBA. It's also one of the busiest arenas in the nation. Tom Gores owns the Palace so he makes all the profit on the arena. Why is he going to spend money on a downtown arena? The Palace is a money machine.

That's part of the reason why a move downtown actually makes sense. People keep saying that the Palace is too good to become a white elephant. I agree but it wouldn't be a white elephant if the Pistons leave. In fact, it would be just as busy as before. With 84 Piston and Red Wing games being played downtown, all the overflow would go to the Palace.

Gores knew what he was doing when he bought Palace Sports and Entertainment. He knew that the Pistons weren't going to make him a huge profit in the early going but with all the events at DTE and the Palace, he would be making up for it. With better attendance at a downtown arena, Gores would in effect be making revenue from 2 buildings as opposed to just one.

[Trueblood]

Good for you. You must live in Northern Oakland County then. Because anyone living south or southwest of the Palace would think differently. I did a similar poll at my workplace and one out of 15 people said they would consider going. The location of the stadium being a large factor. The other being the non-competitive team.
I am a basketball fan and the only way I would go to a game at the Palace is if someone gave me tickets, on a weekend, and offered to drive. Otherwise, forget it. I might make the trip if it was a must-see concert, like U2 or something. But to think that anyone would put up with that drive just to go shopping is insane. I despise that area. Overbuilt, overpopulated and over-rated.

I agree in that the Pistons should join the Red Wings downtown and the bolded part is exactly what I was getting at in my last post. People have no problem driving out to Auburn Hills for a concert act since the individual acts usually only come out once or twice a year but getting people to pay for gas and parking on 42 games a year is a different story.

Detroit should use the New Jersey model. They turned the IZOD Center, former home of the Nets and Devils, into a full time concert and kid show arena and use the Prudential Center in downtown Newark as the sports arena for Devils hockey, the Nets temporarily, arena football and now Seton Hall basketball.

Not coincidentally, the sports are played downtown while the concerts are in a suburban setting surrounded by a parking lot. It would and should be the same here.

[Trueblood]

What's funny is the Lions still have yet to reach the lowest attendance number they had in the Silverdome in their final decade. In fact, attendance declined sharply their first year in Ford Field.

Now this I agree with. The suburban stadium model works very well for the NFL. Only 8 regular season games, usually on Sunday and surrounded by a huge parking lot so that the fans can tailgate makes for a perfect NFL situation.

MLB, NHL and the NBA are much better fits downtown. Sure, the attendance has something to do with the bad product on the floor but with all the businesses and what not downtown, you can survive during down times until the team gets better. You don't get that business support when you're halfway to Flint.