Pistons dwindling attendance renews calls for team to move downtown.

[michimoby]

JLA is UNIVERSALLY recognized as an obsolete dump. Olympia/Redwings need a new Stadium/Venue...

Hey!

It may be an obsolete dump, but it's OUR obsolete dump!

[bailey]

Hey!

It may be an obsolete dump, but it's OUR obsolete dump!

I like the place personally. But I'm not one to go in for the suites and trendy food offerings... I just want to watch a hockey game.

Rest assured, whatever replaces it will be as sterile, soulless and corporate money dominated as the Palace ever was.

[Honky Tonk]

"But I'm not one to go in for the suites and trendy food offerings... "

I'm trying to cut back on suites myself........

[ScienceFair]

There is no evidence to suggest that people don't go to The Palace because it's in Auburn Hills.

I do not go to the Palace because it's in Auburn Hills. It's not an "us" vs. "them" thing, it's just really far from downtown. I have probably been three times in the last five years and I have a feeling I am not the only one that avoids the Palace because of its remoteness.

So there is your evidence.

[Bham1982]

So there is your evidence.

No, you gave anecdotes.

There is no evidence that a suburban sports arena is at a competitive disadvantage. Your personal anecdoes aren't obviously generalizable.

[Cincinnati_Kid]

"But I'm not one to go in for the suites and trendy food offerings... "

I'm trying to cut back on suites myself........

Well played .....

[j to the jeremy]

No, you gave anecdotes.

There is no evidence that a suburban sports arena is at a competitive disadvantage. Your personal anecdoes aren't obviously generalizable.

A suburban arena is not a competitive disadvantage- however, the Palace is inconvenient to impossible for anyone south of O.C. to make it to Pistons games on weeknights. A downtown location would make the team more accessible to Ann Arbor, Downriver, St. Clair, etc, and it would also bring the Pistons to their fan base, most of whom live in the city...Personally I know at least a dozen friends who avoid Pistons games and Palace events because of the perception that I-75 traffic and paying for palace parking sucks [[true), you can't drink at the game or nearby because you have to drive and there are no bars nearby[[true), and of course, the team sucks.

BUT the 'Stons aren't going anywhere yet, because Gores just renovated the palace.

[Lowell]

BUT the 'Stons aren't going anywhere yet, because Gores just renovated the palace.

What did I miss? What got renovated? I was there a week or two ago and it seemed like nothing had changed since my last visit - 6-7 years ago.

[Bham1982]

A downtown location would make the team more accessible to Ann Arbor, Downriver, St. Clair, etc, and it would also bring the Pistons to their fan base, most of whom live in the city...

I agree that downtown is naturally more convenient to more people, but again, I'm not sure that's the most releveant calculation. It isn't even where the fan base is located [[and I don't know why you assume "most of the fan base" lives in the city).

Probably the most important issue is access for suiteholders and lower level seats. That's where the money is, and those suiteholders are coming from corporations and private individuals that are probably most heavily concentrated in Oakland County, which is why the location makes sense to me.

[401don]

The Pistons are dead last in the league in attendance and that's with the stated avg. of about 12,500 per game being greatly exaggerated. Would they draw a couple thousand more downtown? Probably. The bigger question is whether Detroit fans will support a loser. When the Wings were bad their attendance was lousy as was the Pistons before Isiah came along. The Tigers drew about 12,000 per game in the 1990's which contributed to the end of Tiger Stadium.
I don't count the Lions, simply because the schedule is so short but they have drawn about 40,000 some years. Many will say it`s simply smart to not support a bad team while others argue the fans support the team through thick and thin. The Pistons don`t deserve sellouts but they certainly should be getting more people than they are right now, especially with the NHL lockout.

[Eber Brock Ward]

Sum up my tl;dr post - It is unlikely a new arena gets built anytime soon because the public subsidy is likely not available, but if a new arena were to get built, it does not make economic sense to locate it very far outside of, very loosely, the bounds of 696 [[north) , southfield rd/hwy [[west), michigan or 94 [[south), and something like gratiot [[east).

Whether that's downtown or somewhere like Southfield, that's a whole different discussion. But given the available research and trends in stadium relocation, it's safe to say that, if the Palace is a "successful" venue, it is successful in spite of, rather than because of, its location.

No, you gave anecdotes.

There is no evidence that a suburban sports arena is at a competitive disadvantage. Your personal anecdoes aren't obviously generalizable.

Quick google, here's a relevant study, even if somewhat dated:
http://www.ux1.eiu.edu/~jadavis2/Spo...s%20Venues.pdf

Also:
- Louisville - In building their new arena, after studying locations and in choosing a downtown Louisville location, the Arena Authority found that "the overall experience of attending a game or an event at the new Arena would be enhanced by the proximity of complementary activity within easy walking distance." [[http://www.courier-journal.com/assets/B21452661026.PDF)
- Legal/Economic Scholarship - "When professional sports began to exploit the corporate market, central city locations became financially attractive to teams and the preferred location for new facilities." [[http://scholarship.law.marquette.edu...text=sportslaw)

If you google it [[use google scholar), you'll find a few dozen articles or studies out there. Overall, it's not so much that either urban or suburban locations are inherently "better" or "worse", it's that the financials have changed.

In the past, which was [[1) prior to public sector subsidies, when stadiums were mostly privately financed and [[2) prior to the influx of corporate dollars, many/most new arenas were built in the burbs because there was cheap and readily available land.

Now that many cities' suburbs are built out, cheap land isn't often readily available within a reasonable driving distance of a critical mass of people. So it's going to cost the owner either way, and the owner will want to defray those costs.

Back to the present day. With respect to subsidies, suburbs often lack the size/population to offer a subsidy that is reasonably scalable to a lesser amount of residents/businesses. With respect to this discussion, I do not think either Detroit or any of its suburbs is capable of offering a substantial subsidy at this point.

Concerning a discussion of corporate interests, I would bet that if you did a "center-point" for corporate activity in the region it would be somewhere around Southfield and 96. If you did the same for population, I wouldn't doubt it would move south a bit, as downriver is more dense/built out than OC and other parts north. For these reasons, if I am a Ford exec, or a Quicken exec, or a BCBS exec, and I am a team sponsor, I want the arena in the place most accessible to most of my big wigs and most of my clients. This is favorable to a Detroit location, or even perhaps a Southfield or Farmington location. It's not city vs. suburbs, which some folks here are making it, it's rather an access issue for those folks and those that they want to entertain.

Look at where things are "built out" or "filled in" on this map -- http://tinyurl.com/cs6nmp9 -- Auburn Hills is certainly not a prime location, particularly in light of the economic analysis that's been done since the Palace was built.

[Gistok]

Probably the most important issue is access for suiteholders and lower level seats. That's where the money is, and those suiteholders are coming from corporations and private individuals that are probably most heavily concentrated in Oakland County, which is why the location makes sense to me.

I'm sorry... but how are Piston Suiteholders and lower bowl seat holders different from those of Comerica Park, Ford Field and JLA??

Yes they're well to do... yes a large proportion come from Oakland County... but that hasn't stopped them from coming downtown...

So far you've still failed to convince people that the Auburn Hills "LOCATION" is as important as you think it is....

[Eber Brock Ward]

I should have added, too, that when you apply the authors' analyses and under the conditions when it was built, Auburn Hills was almosy certainly a net positive location.

[ScienceFair]

No, you gave anecdotes.

There is no evidence that a suburban sports arena is at a competitive disadvantage. Your personal anecdoes aren't obviously generalizable.

I'm sorry I don't have exhaustive research to back up my point of view. When I have a minute, maybe I'll survey several hundred people in the Detroit Metro area to gather a proper samlple size and then analyze that data. But until then, you can either take my point of view into consideration [[as a Pistons fan who lives in the city) or believe that people like me are statistical outliers who hate the suburbs for some reason.

I've been a Pistons fan all my life, and it's always been a chore to get to games. Now that the team is terrible, people like me [[the other 75% of Metro Detroit who do not live in Oakland County) have lost the only incentive to go to a Pistons game, good basketball to watch. As others have said, there is really nothing else up there that is worth the drive.

[EastsideAl]

Now that the team is terrible, people like me [[the other 75% of Metro Detroit who do not live in Oakland County) have lost the only incentive to go to a Pistons game, good basketball to watch. As others have said, there is really nothing else up there that is worth the drive.

And that, to me, is the crux of the argument. Even a bad Pistons team would be more likely to attract 'casual' fans if they were located downtown. At the very least it makes a much more attractive place for people to have an evening out, including a basketball game, than a long drive out to a parking lot in Auburn Hills.

As long as the team was very good, the games could stand alone as a "destination," and the arena's location wasn't a problem. But for a mediocre to bad team, a more centrally located arena with nearby restaurants, bars, etc., can help to bring in fans. And almost no teams stay good forever, so downtown would seem a better long-term choice.

However, given the Palace's wider revenue stream, and the current lack of public funding & will, Gores has no reason at the moment to contemplate a move for the team. He's probably better off trying to improve the team [[which Mrs. Davidson in her disinterest let slip horribly, probably costing herself millions of $$) or at least to bring in an exciting young player or two as a draw.

But, in the longer-range view, I think a return downtown is definitely somewhere in the team's future.

[Shollin]

And that, to me, is the crux of the argument. Even a bad Pistons team would be more likely to attract 'casual' fans if they were located downtown. At the very least it makes a much more attractive place for people to have an evening out, including a basketball game, than a long drive out to a parking lot in Auburn Hills.

As long as the team was very good, the games could stand alone as a "destination," and the arena's location wasn't a problem. But for a mediocre to bad team, a more centrally located arena with nearby restaurants, bars, etc., can help to bring in fans. And almost no teams stay good forever, so downtown would seem a better long-term choice.

However, given the Palace's wider revenue stream, and the current lack of public funding & will, Gores has no reason at the moment to contemplate a move for the team. He's probably better off trying to improve the team [[which Mrs. Davidson in her disinterest let slip horribly, probably costing herself millions of $$) or at least to bring in an exciting young player or two as a draw.

But, in the longer-range view, I think a return downtown is definitely somewhere in the team's future.

The Tigers from 2001-2005 were in the bottom half of the league in attendance. The move downtown didn't help the Lions until they started to win.

[rb336]

Which pretty much refutes what you and others are saying.

Taken at face value, Gores is saying the Palace is fine for now, and who knows what happens in the future. No one is saying the Palace will stand for centuries.

actually, it 100% supports it. we've said the business case would send him downtown at some point. I even said it wouldn't be in 5 years, but that he'd start thinking that way when the palace turns 30

[rb336]

You're right. The Palace has a bigger capacity.

In your mind "bigger capacity = better." Which explains why nearly all similar venues are getting smaller

In your zeal to bash the 'burbs at any opportunity you're missing the point.

The location, yes, is not ideal. HOWEVER, the physical building itself is long way away from being as obsolete and decrepit as the Joe.

I'm not basing the burbs, although I will admit to bashing some specific 'burbs, sometimes because they deserve it, other times in jest. Of course the Palace isn't as obsolete as the Joe. It's 10 years younger and the joe was built on the cheap.

b) You may not, but the ones who decide if the Pistons move and/or if a new Arena is built do. And really they are the only ones that matter here.

c) Ok... but its also pretty far from being "cramped and ugly"... I'd further state that after all the "re-freshes" over the years, it's not exactly "old". It's definitely not obsolete.

funneling the much bigger capacity of patrons through those skinny concourses is, by definition, cramped. Compare it to Ford Field. [[as a tall person, I don't fit well in the seats of any arena or stadium I've ever been in)

$100.00 that no arena for hockey and BBall is built downtown before 2030.

You mean one built, from the start, to accommodate both? backing off on your hyperbole, I see.

First off, as repeatedly stated on this thread, the Pistons own the attendance record

That was at the Silverdome

the place regularly sells out for concerts. Get a good team, and teh sellouts will return. And again, you're focusing on the Location and not the building or the operations.

So does Ford Field. No one has EVER talked about the Palace operations - first-rate group all the way. And yes, I AM talking about the building and its location. The location actually is, itself, obsolete.

It is pretty damn close, because it's been continually updated, expanded, renovated and improved.

No, it isn't even close. Check the Barclays or even the United Center and you will understand.

JLA is UNIVERSALLY recognized as an obsolete dump. Olympia/Redwings need a new Stadium/Venue...Palace Sports and Entertainment/Pistons do not. What is not correct about that?

I never said that wasn't correct. I merely said yours was a stupid comment. It did not "set the standard" for the last twenty years. It may have had 6, until the Kiel [[Scottrade) center opened in St Louis.

Eventually...sure. in the next 20 years. I don't think so because there is no business case for it. And there will be no single sport arena built...even illitch is saying that. If it;s not dual sport it aint happening.

When did Illitch say that? Sorry, but I don't see a man like illitch plopping down $100,000 plus to two architectural firms for something he's not going to do. With that ONE statement, you thoroughly undermined your credibility on the subject...

Further, where is this new stadium $$ coming from and who's kicking in? Illitch's history shows he's not paying for it without public money doing the heavy lifting and there is no public money. so where does that leave it?

Like I said, unless these two billionares decide to burn a pile of money and build a new venue simply as good civic citizens -- and without regard to the business end of it, it's not happening anytime soon.

and then you double-down on the absurd with this

[gthomas]

And that, to me, is the crux of the argument. Even a bad Pistons team would be more likely to attract 'casual' fans if they were located downtown. At the very least it makes a much more attractive place for people to have an evening out, including a basketball game, than a long drive out to a parking lot in Auburn Hills.

As long as the team was very good, the games could stand alone as a "destination," and the arena's location wasn't a problem. But for a mediocre to bad team, a more centrally located arena with nearby restaurants, bars, etc., can help to bring in fans. And almost no teams stay good forever, so downtown would seem a better long-term choice.

However, given the Palace's wider revenue stream, and the current lack of public funding & will, Gores has no reason at the moment to contemplate a move for the team. He's probably better off trying to improve the team [[which Mrs. Davidson in her disinterest let slip horribly, probably costing herself millions of $$) or at least to bring in an exciting young player or two as a draw.

But, in the longer-range view, I think a return downtown is definitely somewhere in the team's future.

Thank you, I believe 75% of the people in this region understands this, the other 25% are idiots.

[Bham1982]

I'm sorry... but how are Piston Suiteholders and lower bowl seat holders different from those of Comerica Park, Ford Field and JLA??

Because arena economics are different from stadium economics. Generally, the basketball/hockey arenas have a different revenue mix, and are more dependent on the premium suites.

So far you've still failed to convince people that the Auburn Hills "LOCATION" is as important as you think it is....

I never said the location was a good one. I just contested all the allegations that the location was fatally flawed or sited by idiots.

[Shollin]

That was at the Silverdome

"AUBURN HILLS -- The Detroit Pistons could and perhaps should be winning more often at home, but those running Palace Sports and Entertainment were expecting the franchise sellout streak to end as the nation battles a poor economy.
While the Pistons were slipping past the Miami Heat 93-90 on Wednesday night, the streak ended at a Palace-record 259 consecutive sellouts dating back to Jan. 19, 2004.
The Pistons, who lead the NBA in attendance, as they have in five of the past six seasons, averaged 22,076 sold [[capacity) for the first 24 home games, or 1,000 more than second-highest Chicago. A crowd of 21,720 showed Wednesday at The Palace of Auburn Hills."

http://www.mlive.com/pistons/index.s...ak_at_the.html

[rb336]

that was "leading" - Bailey said "record". the record was over 60K at the dome, as was the season attendance record

[Shollin]

that was "leading" - Bailey said "record". the record was over 60K at the dome, as was the season attendance record

And the Silverdome was out in the suburbs.

[rb336]

The Tigers from 2001-2005 were in the bottom half of the league in attendance. The move downtown didn't help the Lions until they started to win.

Lions still averaged over 50K patrons/game even in 2008

[Shollin]

Lions still averaged over 50K patrons/game even in 2008

Which was dead last in the entire NFL.