Pistons dwindling attendance renews calls for team to move downtown.

**gthomas** · December-02-12, 05:10 PM

Originally Posted by Shollin

The point is, as previously mentioned, by the time this gets off the ground, Mike may not be living anymore and we don't know if the kids are as committed as Mike.

You don't know when he will announce this, from different sources I heard we will hear something by years end, hopefully. How do you know Ilitch will be gone before this gets done? You are predicting the worse scenario in this case, we will see how this turn out.

**gumby** · December-02-12, 08:17 PM

Originally Posted by Shollin

Yet the Palace destroys Joe Louis in the number of concerts.

That is because Joe Louis Arena is a piece of shit. You seem to be focused on the fact that the Palace is a better arena than the Joe. I see no one here disputing that. The argument is that a new arena in a better area of downtown would be better than the Palace.

**gthomas** · December-02-12, 09:55 PM

Originally Posted by gumby

That is because Joe Louis Arena is a piece of shit. You seem to be focused on the fact that the Palace is a better arena than the Joe. I see no one here disputing that. The argument is that a new arena in a better area of downtown would be better than the Palace.

Yes, my point exactly, it's about "Place" and it has no business out in Auburn Hill, PERIOD. Is it feasible to keep them out in Auburn Hills, knowing majority will not travel, deal with traffic and not having things to do before and after the game? Once the new Red Wing arena is built, it will be more attractive "alone" by its location, which pays it off just by that. Now if the Pistons was downtown and was a sorry team I will still go to the games due to many attraction around it, it will make it worthwhile. Being in Auburn Hills is really not pleasing, that's all we saying...Gore might be happy now that he has a nice venue and making money off concerts and things, now until Ilitch unveil his arena and entertainment district. It will be a competition that Gore might not want to deal with later on, eventually collaborating at the end. Ilitch will win base on location, amenities, and entertainment alone...Sorry team or not.

**gthomas** · December-02-12, 10:00 PM

Also, to mention...It will have great aerial views during night games being downtown with the skyline as a backdrop.

it's all about appeal baby, which is $$$$.

**Gistok** · December-02-12, 10:06 PM

Originally Posted by gthomas

Also, to mention...It will have great aerial views during night games being downtown with the skyline as a backdrop.

it's all about appeal baby, which is $$$$.

Do you mean helicopter views of a closed roofed building?

**gthomas** · December-02-12, 11:15 PM

Originally Posted by Gistok

Do you mean helicopter views of a closed roofed building?

Did you see how BEAUTIFUL Downtown looked during the World Series this year? The aerial views from the helicopter were nice..did it not?

Shollin · December-02-12, 11:31 PM

Originally Posted by gumby

That is because Joe Louis Arena is a piece of shit. You seem to be focused on the fact that the Palace is a better arena than the Joe. I see no one here disputing that. The argument is that a new arena in a better area of downtown would be better than the Palace.

I'm focused on the fact that the Pistons own the Palace and the only parking. They are not going to pay for a competing venue to lease and split revenue on. There is no evidence to suggest that people don't go to The Palace because it's in Auburn Hills. The Pistons will not get a better stadium deal then the one they have.

**gumby** · December-03-12, 12:25 AM

Originally Posted by Shollin

I'm focused on the fact that the Pistons own the Palace and the only parking. They are not going to pay for a competing venue to lease and split revenue on. There is no evidence to suggest that people don't go to The Palace because it's in Auburn Hills. The Pistons will not get a better stadium deal then the one they have.

My reply was in response to your statement about the Palace having more concerts than the Joe. I think most people agree that the reason people don't go to Pistons games is because they suck not because of Auburn Hills, to think otherwise is to ignore reality. However, the discussion here is that they may have better attendance in times of sucking in an area that has more to offer entertainmentwise before and after the games. Yes all this may just be pissing into the wind because you may be correct and Gores might not care about this because he has sole ownership of the Palace and the parking lots. However, that does not invalidate the points made here.

**Gistok** · December-03-12, 04:03 AM

This isn't the only forum that has discussed a new Hockey barn... although of the 2 major designs, I much prefer the latter one... not the big red bulky one...

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1518249

Also, if it were behind the Fox... I would prefer the gables pointing east/west, rather than north/south. I always thought that they should move the small Blenheim Apts to another empty spot along Park Ave., and have a new arena west of Park Ave. facing eastward towards the wide area on Columbia St. between the Fox and the Fillmore/State with that area the plaza in front of the Arena... framed from a distance between the 2 theatres.

**DetroitPlanner** · December-03-12, 08:00 AM

The Pistons should just remove half the seats on the floor of the Masonic and play there.

**Bham1982** · December-03-12, 08:16 AM

Originally Posted by gthomas

Is it feasible to keep them out in Auburn Hills, knowing majority will not travel, deal with traffic and not having things to do before and after the game?

If by "feasible", you mean highest attendance in the NBA, and second highest arena attendance after Madison Square Garden, then yes.

The Palace is considered one of the most successful sports venues on earth. If its location is truly a drawback, then the feat is even more impressive.

IMO, when considering arena location, the most important issue, by far, is access. All the noise about access to Applebees and Buffalo Wild Wings and whatever crap venues locate around sports facilities is not very relevant.

It's great that downtown has more grease pits near Comerica/Ford than Auburn Hills has near the Palace, but I don't think it's some gigantic advantage.

**michimoby** · December-03-12, 08:24 AM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

If by "feasible", you mean highest attendance in the NBA, and second highest arena attendance after Madison Square Garden, then yes.

The Palace is considered one of the most successful sports venues on earth. If its location is truly a drawback, then the feat is even more impressive.

That attendance number seems awfully astounding. Is that a recent data point?

I've been to two Pistons games -- one during their 2004 championship run [[in which the place was packed); one last year [[sparse is an understatement). I would presume its success most recently has been on the shoulders of events peripheral to the Pistons, but I've been wrong on multiple occasions.

**Bham1982** · December-03-12, 09:03 AM

Originally Posted by michimoby

That attendance number seems awfully astounding. Is that a recent data point?

No; Pistons current attendance is abysmal.

But, when the Pistons were good, they led the NBA in attendance. They were #1 in attendance for nearly 20 years. Auburn Hills was just as sucky back then as now [[probably worse) and was definitely more isolated then than now, and it apparently wasn't a problem.

When they were in the Silverdome, which was a terrible venue, they also led the NBA in attendance. Good teams will draw in the Detroit area. And, conversely, bad teams won't. Comerica attendance was awful 7-8 years ago.

**Cincinnati_Kid** · December-03-12, 09:19 AM

Originally Posted by gumby

My reply was in response to your statement about the Palace having more concerts than the Joe. I think most people agree that the reason people don't go to Pistons games is because they suck not because of Auburn Hills, to think otherwise is to ignore reality. However, the discussion here is that they may have better attendance in times of sucking in an area that has more to offer entertainmentwise before and after the games. Yes all this may just be pissing into the wind because you may be correct and Gores might not care about this because he has sole ownership of the Palace and the parking lots. However, that does not invalidate the points made here.

That's quite obvious. Just 6 or 7 years ago when they were one of the best teams in the NBA, they routinely sold out every home game. I believe they led the league or were top 5 in attendance and had like pretty close to 300 straight games sold out. So yeah, winning is important, unless of course if you're the Lions, who sell out all they're home games and still put out a inferior product.

**rb336** · December-03-12, 09:49 AM

Originally Posted by Shollin

I love how this forum can put down the suburbs but will jump on people who talk negative about Detroit. Maybe people don't want to get carjacked driving to the game or have bums accost them before and after games.

Yeah, so much better to have a stand-alone facility in the middle of nowhere. So in keeping with people who want to live an isolated existence. The Palace is getting old, it's cramped, it's ugly. Of course you missed the main point entirely, in your desire to support your bland, cookie-cutter suburban lifestyle. Once the new arena is built, it will out-compete the Palace for concerts and other events and Gore will be faced with a decision - build a new arena of his own or go to the hockey arena. If he partners with Olympia NOW, he'd be in a much better position down the road.

As far as being a trendsetter - it really wasn't. Camden Yards was in planning stages before the Palace. And it started the trend of building new arenas/stadiums in downtowns rather than out in the sticks. Other than the Cowboys stadium, Meadowlands and FedEx field, they just aren't building arenas in the burbs anymore.

**bailey** · December-03-12, 10:03 AM

Originally Posted by rb336

Yeah, so much better to have a stand-alone facility in the middle of nowhere. So in keeping with people who want to live an isolated existence. The Palace is getting old, it's cramped, it's ugly. Of course you missed the main point entirely, in your desire to support your bland, cookie-cutter suburban lifestyle. Once the new arena is built, it will out-compete the Palace for concerts and other events and Gore will be faced with a decision - build a new arena of his own or go to the hockey arena. If he partners with Olympia NOW, he'd be in a much better position down the road.

Ok...seriously? The Palace...as old as it is is still a model for building those types of buildings.

You may not like where it was built, or that it thrived and still prints money for its owners but pretending its some shithole like the JLA just undermines whatever point you're trying to make.

Once the new arena is built, it will out-compete the Palace for concerts and other events and Gore will be faced with a decision - build a new arena of his own or go to the hockey arena. If he partners with Olympia NOW, he'd be in a much better position down the road.

Unless it's privately funded, there will be no arenas built in Detroit in anything approaching the near future. Not. going. to. happen.

As far as being a trendsetter - it really wasn't. Camden Yards was in planning stages before the Palace. And it started the trend of building new arenas/stadiums in downtowns rather than out in the sticks. Other than the Cowboys stadium, Meadowlands and FedEx field, they just aren't building arenas in the burbs anymore.

a) bullshit. It set the standard for every other NBA [[not baseball, not football...as you try to compare) venue built in the last 20 years. It is STILL the largest by capacity and a premier concert venue.

Again, pretending otherwise is just stupid.

b) Olympia is in the weak position here. THEY are the ones with a shithole venue that they can't afford to replace.

**michimoby** · December-03-12, 10:30 AM

This thread is starting down a pathway of "us vs. them", and frankly, it's a bit discomforting to see the vitriol emanating from it.

The core questions that seem to be at the heart of the OP's intent are:

- Are the Pistons noticing a decline in attendance? Yes.
- Is the dwindling attendance a result of their current venue's location? Probably not a good correlation; it has more to do with a poorly-performing franchise. Hell, even Michigan Stadium only used to be half-full until Bo Schembechler came along.
- Would moving the Pistons' venue downtown provide a jump in attendance? Possibly, but not guaranteed.
- Would moving the Pistons' venue downtown provide benefits to the downtown Detroit area? Undoubtedly yes.

It's that final point that seems to be driving the strong emotional reactions here - but the decision-maker in this effort [[Tom Gores) is probably most concerned with the first three questions than the last one. And if he chooses to focus on them, he's simply prioritizing his business' long-term sustainability.

Tom Gores isn't Dan Gilbert. He isn't in the real estate business, doesn't have thousands of employees, and has no real attachment to downtown Detroit. Hence, he really doesn't have much reason to focus his attention downtown.

I'd be the first to cheerlead for an NBA franchise playing a few blocks from my Corktown apartment, but I also wouldn't fault Mr. Gores for staying put exactly where he is.

**jefferson78** · December-03-12, 10:40 AM

I'm the type of person that does not get to go to too many games, reasons being money and opportunity. I usually jump at discounts or freebies.
With that said, I don't hate the Palace, I just hate where it's at. For us that live in Western Wayne co. it is terribly inconvenient, as is most east side events.
I despise the incredible traffic I have to deal with to get anywhere in Oakland co., so I avoid it.
I will grin and bear it when there is a must-see concert in the Hills, but that's about it.
If the team was a winner [[playoff regular) it might make a difference. The NBA in it's current form is not atractive to me. It seems that there is no parity and the major sports networks only talk about the Lakers, Celtics and most of the good teams too much. If I have to hear Kobe's name again, I'll scream. The product is crap too. All I see is a dunk fest with out-of-control players getting bailed out by the refs. I'll take the college game over this anyday.

I have no problem going downtown to any game. It just seems right. Like most teams carrying a town's moniker, they should be playing in that town.

If that's where the Pistons are staying, I guess I won't be going.
As it stands now. Being a sports fanatic, watching the Pistons is at the bottom of my TV watching priority list. And probably will stay there until they get competitive again. If they were downtown, the likelihood of me going to see them play goes up considerably.

**Gistok** · December-03-12, 12:21 PM

Originally Posted by michimoby

This thread is starting down a pathway of "us vs. them", and frankly, it's a bit discomforting to see the vitriol emanating from it.

That's because we can never mix "Wesley" and "Poo" socially...

Ying and Yang.... you'll probably never find them at a DYES Forum Picnic.

**rb336** · December-03-12, 01:20 PM

Originally Posted by bailey

Ok...seriously? The Palace...as old as it is is still a model for building those types of buildings.

Yeah, the new Brooklyn Nets building is just like it! no, it is no longer a model. I don't think it ever was. What it was was the last of its kind - a suburban arena

You may not like where it was built, or that it thrived and still prints money for its owners but pretending its some shithole like the JLA just undermines whatever point you're trying to make.

A) no, i don't like where it was built
B) Don't care one way or the other if it makes money
C) I never called it a shithole, just old, which it is, and outdated, which it is [[although obviously not to the extent of the Joe).

Unless it's privately funded, there will be no arenas built in Detroit in anything approaching the near future. Not. going. to. happen.

Yes, it will. Want to put money on it?

bullshit. It set the standard for every other NBA [[not baseball, not football...as you try to compare) venue built in the last 20 years. It is STILL the largest by capacity and a premier concert venue.

largest by capacity means nothing when you can't fill it. I'm not the one comparing it to football, b-ball stadiums - that was Shollin

Again, pretending otherwise is just stupid.

Again, i'm not the one pretending here. It is you deluding yourself that anything 20-years old is still state-of-the-art

b) Olympia is in the weak position here. THEY are the ones with a shithole venue that they can't afford to replace.

That's just such an idiotic comment that it's funny

State of the art = Barclays Center, Ford Field, etc. NO ONE building a new arena or stadium is looking at the Palace for inspiration. The Pistons will, eventually, move downtown. Probably not the year the new arena opens. Probably not 5 years from now. Once the Palace hits 30, they will probably start looking at it

**rb336** · December-03-12, 01:25 PM

Let's see what Gores says:

"I don't think you want to leave it and just say, 'Nice to see you,' to the Palace," Gores said. "I don't want to do that. In the meantime, if the future is downtown, and that's what we have to do to grow, I'm not against that."

http://www.mlive.com/pistons/index.s...ed_to_d_1.html

**Bham1982** · December-03-12, 01:29 PM

Originally Posted by rb336

Let's see what Gores says:

"I don't think you want to leave it and just say, 'Nice to see you,' to the Palace," Gores said. "I don't want to do that. In the meantime, if the future is downtown, and that's what we have to do to grow, I'm not against that."

http://www.mlive.com/pistons/index.s...ed_to_d_1.html

Which pretty much refutes what you and others are saying.

Taken at face value, Gores is saying the Palace is fine for now, and who knows what happens in the future. No one is saying the Palace will stand for centuries.

**gthomas** · December-03-12, 01:40 PM

Originally Posted by rb336

Let's see what Gores says:

"I don't think you want to leave it and just say, 'Nice to see you,' to the Palace," Gores said. "I don't want to do that. In the meantime, if the future is downtown, and that's what we have to do to grow, I'm not against that."

http://www.mlive.com/pistons/index.s...ed_to_d_1.html

He knows eventually he will have to relocate BACK Downtown, even though he thinks the Palace is fine for now. Like I said, once the new Red Wing is built he will join Ilitch, period. Many reasons why I feel this way, it just make sense. Also, why are people on this forum stating "How will this be payed for, etc...OMG, It's payed by him and other investors. This arena will be built believe it or not...I'm sick of hearing people say this won't happen.

**bailey** · December-03-12, 01:52 PM

Originally Posted by rb336

Yeah, the new Brooklyn Nets building is just like it! no, it is no longer a model. I don't think it ever was. What it was was the last of its kind - a suburban arena

You're right. The Palace has a bigger capacity.

In your zeal to bash the 'burbs at any opportunity you're missing the point.

The location, yes, is not ideal. HOWEVER, the physical building itself is long way away from being as obsolete and decrepit as the Joe.

A) no, i don't like where it was built
B) Don't care one way or the other if it makes money
C) I never called it a shithole, just old, which it is, and outdated, which it is [[although obviously not to the extent of the Joe).

a) clearly
b) You may not, but the ones who decide if the Pistons move and/or if a new Arena is built do. And really they are the only ones that matter here.
c) Ok... but its also pretty far from being "cramped and ugly"... I'd further state that after all the "re-freshes" over the years, it's not exactly "old". It's definitely not obsolete.

Yes, it will. Want to put money on it?

$100.00 that no arena for hockey and BBall is built downtown before 2030.

largest by capacity means nothing when you can't fill it. I'm not the one comparing it to football, b-ball stadiums - that was Shollin

First off, as repeatedly stated on this thread, the Pistons own the attendance record and the place regularly sells out for concerts. Get a good team, and teh sellouts will return.
And again, you're focusing on the Location and not the building or the operations.

Again, i'm not the one pretending here. It is you deluding yourself that anything 20-years old is still state-of-the-art

It is pretty damn close, because it's been continually updated, expanded, renovated and improved.

That's just such an idiotic comment that it's funny

JLA is UNIVERSALLY recognized as an obsolete dump. Olympia/Redwings need a new Stadium/Venue...Palace Sports and Entertainment/Pistons do not. What is not correct about that?

The Pistons will, eventually, move downtown. Probably not the year the new arena opens. Probably not 5 years from now. Once the Palace hits 30, they will probably start looking at it

Eventually...sure. in the next 20 years. I don't think so because there is no business case for it. And there will be no single sport arena built...even illitch is saying that. If it;s not dual sport it aint happening.

Further, where is this new stadium $$ coming from and who's kicking in? Illitch's history shows he's not paying for it without public money doing the heavy lifting and there is no public money. so where does that leave it?

Like I said, unless these two billionares decide to burn a pile of money and build a new venue simply as good civic citizens -- and without regard to the business end of it, it's not happening anytime soon.

Shollin · December-03-12, 01:52 PM

Are you serious? The Palace was the first to bring luxury suites to the middle of the seating bowl that every other arena in the NBA now has. Almost every new NBA arena was built within 10-15 years of the Palace. The Palace changed how other arenas were designed. With it's highest capacity in the NBA, it had 259 consecutive sellouts and led the NBA in attendance in 5 of 6 years when the Pistons were going to the ECF every year.