Pistons dwindling attendance renews calls for team to move downtown.

**poobert** · December-02-12, 12:09 AM

Originally Posted by Shollin

0-

I love how this forum can put down the suburbs but will jump on people who talk negative about Detroit. Maybe people don't want to get carjacked driving to the game...

Jesus FUCKING Christ. How many people have been carjacked in Detroit while driving to a game? Tell me. Do tell me, wise one. I want real numbers, not just your never-ending inflammatory garbage - so give me a stat - just how many? Or are there just too many darkies around? I know your kind. Oh I know it all too well, being a buttoned-up white guy myself. People like you mistake people like me for people like you. Let's be real, here, fella. Own up.

I googled "carjackings Detroit Lions Games" and it just came up random...and with a carjacking in the suburbs. Go fucking figure. I gave your little theory a shot, old boy, though!

It's call Detroityes. Get over it or move on to FreeRepublic.

**Gistok** · December-02-12, 01:20 AM

Originally Posted by Shollin

Am I missing something but why do people think an arena is going up? I know an architect was contracted, but it seems far off. Lets also be honest, Mike Illitch isn't long for this world and seems to be spending more time on winning a World Series. I don't know if the Illitch children will be as willing to build a new arena. I honestly don't think Mike is going to live long enough to see a new arena completed and Detroit sure as hell isn't going to build it. Perhaps Dan Gilbert could buy the Tigers and Red Wings?

Unlike Bill Davidson, who did absolutely squat about what came after him... [[neither his wife or son had any real power over his empire while he was alive), the Ilitch's have been doing "estate planning" for quite some time [[with some tweaking of offsprings when the need arises).

You forget that Marion Ilitch is still around and kicking. And besides MotorCity casino [[which she runs on her own) and the Detroit Tigers [[which by baseball rules, he runs on his own)... the rest of the empire is a "dual monarchy" of sorts. They run it together and always have since they owned their first pizza place in Garden City.

Once Mike is gone, she may be the "Dowager Empress" for a few years, with some of the kids already running the family business [[son Chris already runs Little Caesar's, and son Atanis is involved in Olympia Entertainments). Their downtown empire isn't going to vanish once Mike is gone, and the likelihood of an Arena isn't likely to disappear or diminish either.

One other thing... it was the Ilitch children who encouraged their parents to move the Little Caesars HQ from the burbs to the Fox Theatre Building... and all the rest of the empire ended up nearby. It's just a matter of time [[with or without Mike) that an arena will follow suit. Ilitch Holdings hasn't been buying up acres and acres of land between MotorCity Casino, Masonic Temple and the Fox... just for the hell of it.

**gthomas** · December-02-12, 01:41 AM

Originally Posted by Shollin

I love how this forum can put down the suburbs but will jump on people who talk negative about Detroit.

This forum is about "Place", and the "Detroit" Pistons has no "Place" in "Auburn Hills", it was a mistake to move them out there anyway, nice or not. That's why we have so much sprawl, Major Sports teams should be rightfully in whichever city its team is named after. This region has been trying to make the suburbs urban, look at Southfield and Troy with skyscrapers etc.. Other major cities knows the important's of create a strong hub, creating economic development throughout the region. Everything so spread out here, no density, no regional transit, no commerce..

Shollin · December-02-12, 11:46 AM

Originally Posted by poobert

Jesus FUCKING Christ. How many people have been carjacked in Detroit while driving to a game? Tell me. Do tell me, wise one. I want real numbers, not just your never-ending inflammatory garbage - so give me a stat - just how many? Or are there just too many darkies around? I know your kind. Oh I know it all too well, being a buttoned-up white guy myself. People like you mistake people like me for people like you. Let's be real, here, fella. Own up.

I googled "carjackings Detroit Lions Games" and it just came up random...and with a carjacking in the suburbs. Go fucking figure. I gave your little theory a shot, old boy, though!

It's call Detroityes. Get over it or move on to FreeRepublic.

It was intentional hyperbole. Thank you for proving my point. Also, you are the one who really seems to get worked up over things. Perhaps you need to learn to get over it.

Shollin · December-02-12, 11:51 AM

Originally Posted by Gistok

Unlike Bill Davidson, who did absolutely squat about what came after him... [[neither his wife or son had any real power over his empire while he was alive), the Ilitch's have been doing "estate planning" for quite some time [[with some tweaking of offsprings when the need arises).

You forget that Marion Ilitch is still around and kicking. And besides MotorCity casino [[which she runs on her own) and the Detroit Tigers [[which by baseball rules, he runs on his own)... the rest of the empire is a "dual monarchy" of sorts. They run it together and always have since they owned their first pizza place in Garden City.

Once Mike is gone, she may be the "Dowager Empress" for a few years, with some of the kids already running the family business [[son Chris already runs Little Caesar's, and son Atanis is involved in Olympia Entertainments). Their downtown empire isn't going to vanish once Mike is gone, and the likelihood of an Arena isn't likely to disappear or diminish either.

One other thing... it was the Ilitch children who encouraged their parents to move the Little Caesars HQ from the burbs to the Fox Theatre Building... and all the rest of the empire ended up nearby. It's just a matter of time [[with or without Mike) that an arena will follow suit. Ilitch Holdings hasn't been buying up acres and acres of land between MotorCity Casino, Masonic Temple and the Fox... just for the hell of it.

That doesn't mean the children are going to be as committed to the sport franchises as Mike is. Look at the Yankees. Hal Steinbrenner is reigning in spending where George pretty much had a blank check.

Have we even confirmed it was Illitch buying up that land?

**Zacha341** · December-02-12, 12:03 PM

Not a sport fan, but I stopped going to the Palace years ago for music concerts for the same reason. Pay to park, nothing nearby for dining before or after events. Even the box seats are horrid and many are poorly placed. Bring your binoculars! And no need to dress up to see anyone there. Just gym shoes and sweats are fine... I like it best for the circus, when I used to take kids for that.

Still it is what it is. I don't see anyone building another stadium for the Pistons.

Originally Posted by ThisIsForTheHeart

I went to my first pistons game this year. I was surprised how crappy the palace was. The lobby was nice, but the seats where small, No cup holders and the video screen is ancient looking. Not to mention could not find any great places to eat that is close by [[Walking distance.) Had to drive around in the horrible rush hour traffic just to eat.

Shollin · December-02-12, 12:07 PM

Yet the Palace destroys Joe Louis in the number of concerts.

**gthomas** · December-02-12, 12:32 PM

No ones going to build an arena "just" for the Pistons, we are saying they should eventually move back Downtown once the new "Red Wings" arena is built and "join" them, which it will be. All you naysayer's will always have something to complain about in Detroit, once the new development is built don't come down to visit all the excitement happening, ok. It's well overdue for a new arena downtown, Joe Louis arena is a mess.

What are seeing that I'm not, you don't make such investments to end up with nothing. Mike Illitch has been clearing sites and allocating buildings for years, adding and investing in a couple "lightrail stops" near his development site. And recently, hiring two architects company to design and construct his arena and entertainment district. Why would he make such investment..and giving several press release that "it will" get built.

**Zacha341** · December-02-12, 12:45 PM

^^^^ That's cool I suppose. Any new building venture would not just be for the Pistons, just as the Palace is not. But as others have mentioned the feasibility is questionable. Then again it may happen.

Shollin · December-02-12, 12:51 PM

Originally Posted by gthomas

No ones going to build an arena "just" for the Pistons, we are saying they should eventually move back Downtown once the new "Red Wings" arena is built and "join" them, which it will be. All you naysayer's will always have something to complain about in Detroit, once the new development is built don't come down to visit all the excitement happening, ok. It's well overdue for a new arena downtown, Joe Louis arena is a mess.

What are seeing that I'm not, you don't make such investments to end up with nothing. Mike Illitch has been clearing sites and allocating buildings for years, adding and investing in a couple "lightrail stops" near his development site. And recently, hiring two architects company to design and construct his arena and entertainment district. Why would he make such investment..and giving several press release that "it will" get built.

That's fantastic for the Red Wings but the Pistons won't be part of it. The Pistons make 100% of the revenue in ticket sales. They make 100% in revenue on the parking. The Palace is a fine building. It just does not make sense for Gores to split revenue and split profit with Mike Illitch and help creating a concert venue to compete with the two he owns. [[Remember Palace Sports and Entertainment also owns DTE Music Center)

**Scottathew** · December-02-12, 12:52 PM

Originally Posted by Wheels

Wow, for a minute I thought it was because they sucked.

LOL

I would love to see the Pistons come downtown and she the JLA or some new future arena.

It makes sense, it's more centered within the metro area, and it will help build on the downtown momentum.

**gthomas** · December-02-12, 01:07 PM

Originally Posted by Shollin

That's fantastic for the Red Wings but the Pistons won't be part of it. The Pistons make 100% of the revenue in ticket sales. They make 100% in revenue on the parking. The Palace is a fine building. It just does not make sense for Gores to split revenue and split profit with Mike Illitch and help creating a concert venue to compete with the two he owns. [[Remember Palace Sports and Entertainment also owns DTE Music Center)

Why is it impossible, how do you know he's a greedy old goat who doesn't want to work or partner with other billionaire's? That's a problem for me, we need more collaboration's in investments, your money goes further.

Shollin · December-02-12, 01:17 PM

Originally Posted by gthomas

Why is it impossible, how do you know he's a greedy old goat who doesn't want to work or partner with other billionaire's? That's a problem for me, we need more collaboration's in investments, your money goes further.

He just laid out 325 million to buy the team. He just spend a few million more improving the Palace. You mean to tell me he's going to lay out even more money to help build an arena to compete against the one he just paid millions for, and split revenue and profit with Mike Illitch?

**Gistok** · December-02-12, 01:32 PM

About 3 years ago [[now in the DYES archives) there was a poster who identified over 120 parcels of land between the Fox, Masonic and Grand River... and the Ilitch connection. He even gave us a Google Earth map off all the sites numerically, and the specifics on each site...

Here's the thread... but the poster who identified all the parcels [[his posting name was Verifiable) has removed his link to all the sites [[how odd?)....
http://www.detroityes.com/mb/showthr...-is-sitting-on

The Ilitch Holdings purchases have gone as far north so as to include the 13 sory Eddystone and Park Ave. Hotels, one block south of Temple Ave.

Also, the fact that the Palace is a superior concert facility to city owned JLA was another reason for Ilitch wanting a new arena near Foxtown.

And the city would like to eventually get rid of JLA in the future for the next Cobo expansion. Westward is the only way they can go. But the bank meltdown, Eminent Domain, and local economy all contributed to a delayed arena.

The Ilitch lease on JLA was a decades long lease that expired in 2009. They asked for, and got renewal of their lease with the city in 1 year increments. That doesn't exactly sound like a commitment to stay there.

As for the Pistons moving back downtown... I don't see that happening either...

Shollin · December-02-12, 01:38 PM

Originally Posted by Gistok

About 3 years ago [[now in the DYES archives) there was a poster who identified over 120 parcels of land between the Fox, Masonic and Grand River... and the Ilitch connection. He even gave us a Google Earth map off all the sites numerically, and the specifics on each site...

The Ilitch Holdings purchases have gone as far north so as to include the 13 sory Eddystone and Park Ave. Hotels, one block south of Temple Ave.

Also, the fact that the Palace is a superior concert facility to city owned JLA was another reason for Ilitch wanting a new arena near Foxtown.

And the city would like to eventually get rid of JLA in the future for the next Cobo expansion. Westward is the only way they can go. But the bank meltdown, Eminent Domain, and local economy all contributed to a delayed arena.

The Ilitch lease on JLA was a decades long lease that expired in 2009. They asked for, and got renewal of their lease with the city in 1 year increments. That doesn't exactly sound like a commitment to stay there.

I understand all of that. All the owners of the land sold in Brush Park agreed to non-disclosure agreements so it's all speculation who bought up the land.

**gthomas** · December-02-12, 01:56 PM

Originally Posted by Gistok

About 3 years ago [[now in the DYES archives) there was a poster who identified over 120 parcels of land between the Fox, Masonic and Grand River... and the Ilitch connection. He even gave us a Google Earth map off all the sites numerically, and the specifics on each site...

The Ilitch Holdings purchases have gone as far north so as to include the 13 sory Eddystone and Park Ave. Hotels, one block south of Temple Ave.

Also, the fact that the Palace is a superior concert facility to city owned JLA was another reason for Ilitch wanting a new arena near Foxtown.

And the city would like to eventually get rid of JLA in the future for the next Cobo expansion. Westward is the only way they can go. But the bank meltdown, Eminent Domain, and local economy all contributed to a delayed arena.

The Ilitch lease on JLA was a decades long lease that expired in 2009. They asked for, and got renewal of their lease with the city in 1 year increments. That doesn't exactly sound like a commitment to stay there.

I can bet you he will use all of that land and create a unique sports entertainment district, which in turn be the best in the region. I can only imagine what's in store, hope he does include the Eddystone and Park Ave Hotel in his development. Also to mention, he has plans to renovate the Masonic Temple exterior, Cass Park and build a garage on Cass Ave. Most of the other properties are "quietly" being bought for millions near Temple st.

**Bham1982** · December-02-12, 01:58 PM

Originally Posted by Shollin

Am I missing something but why do people think an arena is going up?

There is no arena going up. They have been talking about this for 10-15 years now, and any arena will need hundreds of millions in state funding.

DOA in Lansing, if it ever got to that point.

**Gistok** · December-02-12, 02:31 PM

Originally Posted by Shollin

I understand all of that. All the owners of the land sold in Brush Park agreed to non-disclosure agreements so it's all speculation who bought up the land.

Well this isn't Brush Park... this is the Masonic and West Foxtown area. The Verifiable guy even listed the names of the parcel owners [[he got county record information), and even found a few different company names that were actually Ilitch owned... but those links no longer work, interestingly enough [[and he must have spent over a hundred hours researching all the info on the individual parcels!). But 3 years ago all of his links listed every parcel, the location, size and owners names... you should have been here then to see the amazing amount if info that he uncovered, which is now oddly enough [[or is it more than coincidence?) no longer available.

And then there's the comments by 3WC in post #25 of that link who mentions that Ilitch bought the [[per square foot) most expensive price EVER paid for land downtown, and had the building torn down.

A lot of people think that no arena is ever going to built there... and that's fine... that plays into the Ilitch hands about continuing to acquire parcels at a cheaper price.

Shollin · December-02-12, 02:36 PM

Originally Posted by Gistok

Well this isn't Brush Park... this is the Masonic and West Foxtown area. The Verifiable guy even listed the names of the parcel owners [[he got county record information), and even found a few different company names that were actually Ilitch owned... but those links no longer work, interestingly enough [[and he must have spent over a hundred hours researching all the info on the individual parcels!). But 3 years ago all of his links listed every parcel, the location, size and owners names... you should have been here then to see the amazing amount if info that he uncovered, which is now oddly enough [[or is it more than coincidence?) no longer available.

And then there's the comments by 3WC in post #25 of that link who mentions that Ilitch bought the [[per square foot) most expensive price EVER paid for land downtown, and had the building torn down.

A lot of people think that no arena is ever going to built there... and that's fine... that plays into the Ilitch hands about continuing to acquire parcels at a cheaper price.

So we have info that conveniently doesn't exist anymore. However, that still doesn't say the kids will spend 400+ million on a new arena. If the development of Downtown and Midtown continue to grow, the land in between is going to become valuable.

**Bham1982** · December-02-12, 02:47 PM

Originally Posted by Gistok

A lot of people think that no arena is ever going to built there... and that's fine... that plays into the Ilitch hands about continuing to acquire parcels at a cheaper price.

Obviously an arena will be built somewhere, at some point. I don't think JLA and the Palace will be in use 100 years from now.

I just don't get why people think that an arena is imminent. There's no state money or political will, the Pistons aren't going anywhere anytime soon, and Illitch is up to his elbows in Tigers expenditures.

We have two suitable arenas, one still quite excellent, and the other acceptable, and both can be upgraded as short-term fixes. We're still paying for Comerica and Ford Field and Detroit is facing an almost unfathomable fiscal cliff.

**gthomas** · December-02-12, 02:53 PM

Originally Posted by Gistok

A lot of people think that no arena is ever going to built there... and that's fine... that plays into the Ilitch hands about continuing to acquire parcels at a cheaper price.

LOL, yes I agree. He's going to just show them, although it took 15 years or more talking about an arena. It only make sense..believe it or not. There's going to be a lot of folks shocked about what's in store. He secretly doing things, so we will never know. I hope my assumptions is right..

**gthomas** · December-02-12, 02:59 PM

Originally Posted by Shollin

So we have info that conveniently doesn't exist anymore. However, that still doesn't say the kids will spend 400+ million on a new arena. If the development of Downtown and Midtown continue to grow, the land in between is going to become valuable.

Ilitch said his arena will cost $300-500 million. Man you'll need to get over it, he's building a arena PERIOD! Whether you think its feasible or not...it will happen so what will you say when it does? It's not impossible...too much investment in that area.

Shollin · December-02-12, 03:12 PM

Originally Posted by gthomas

Ilitch said his arena will cost $300-500 million. Man you'll need to get over it, he's building a arena PERIOD! Whether you think its feasible or not...it will happen so what will you say when it does? It's not impossible...too much investment in that area.

Amway center in Orlando cost 480 million to build. Consol Energy Center in Pittsburgh cost 321 million. The longer this goes unbuilt, the more it will cost. It's going to cost at least 400 million so you'll need to get over it.

**gthomas** · December-02-12, 03:32 PM

Originally Posted by Shollin

Amway center in Orlando cost 480 million to build. Consol Energy Center in Pittsburgh cost 321 million. The longer this goes unbuilt, the more it will cost. It's going to cost at least 400 million so you'll need to get over it.

Ok, he has already stated that it will cost that amount, so what's your point here? It's not your money, we're not being taxed? He already invested that much or not more..

Shollin · December-02-12, 04:16 PM

Originally Posted by gthomas

Ok, he has already stated that it will cost that amount, so what's your point here? It's not your money, we're not being taxed? He already invested that much or not more..

The point is, as previously mentioned, by the time this gets off the ground, Mike may not be living anymore and we don't know if the kids are as committed as Mike.