Royal Oak doesn't want security gates on retail.

[iheartthed]

But again, ala the Broken Windows theory... if you allow this exception... there will be more people with them. And if it's in response to a REAL threat [[regular break-ins after hours in Downtown RO) and not perceived threat [[ooh, i'm close to Detroit, I saw some black people outside my store late at night and I think I will be robbed) that is addressing the wrong end of the problem. If there is a rash of break ins in RO that require businesses to build fortresses, then the RO and ROPD have some explaining to do. They need to spend less time handing out MIPs and nickle dime pot arrests and focus real crime.

This is not an application of the Broken Windows theory. There are plenty of security shutters in Manhattan, where the theory was popularized.

[bailey]

This is not an application of the Broken Windows theory. There are plenty of security shutters in Manhattan, where the theory was popularized.

RO is not NYC..or Paris..or Detroit. There are no security shutters in RO because there is no need for them.

Allow this business to do it, and there will be more. because the perception will be that there is a crime problem. and then there is a drop in foot traffic because all anyone sees after 6pm is a bunch of rolled down shutters over businesses. Then comes the tagging of the doors. and then there is a decline in businesses that want to be there because they dont want to drop 25k to secure their buildings at night with shutters and deal with the tagging. etc, etc, etc.

It's "Broken windows" from the context of not allowing the small things to slip.

But again, as repeatedly pointed out.. if there is no ordinance against them, RO is SOL.

[iheartthed]

RO is not NYC..or Paris..or Detroit. There are no security shutters in RO because there is no need for them.

Allow this business to do it, and there will be more. because the perception will be that there is a crime problem. and then there is a drop in foot traffic because all anyone sees after 6pm is a bunch of rolled down shutters over businesses. Then comes the tagging of the doors. and then there is a decline in businesses that want to be there because they dont want to drop 25k to secure their buildings at night with shutters and deal with the tagging. etc, etc, etc.

I don't think I've ever walked through a mall near closing and thought "gee, all of these security shutters make me feel unsafe!"

Extreme leaps of logic still doesn't make the premise any less stupid. Security gates don't cause crime, nor do they lead to the perception of crime, nor do they cause graffiti. As someone pointed out above, certain types of businesses are required to have security shutters for insurance purposes.

Now, if RO just thinks that security gates are ugly then that's a different story. I could respect that! But trying to justify an aesthetic preference by conjuring up non-existent boogeymen is ridiculous.

[poobert]

Extreme leaps of logic still doesn't make the premise any less stupid. Security gates don't cause crime, nor do they lead to the perception of crime, nor do they cause graffiti.

You can disagree, but there is a school of thought that, in a roundabout way, believe that security gates do lead the perception of crime, and thus make an area more susceptible[[not cause) to crime. Again, you can disagree, but there is a ton of information out there that is widely promulgated by law enforcement today so don't be so dismissive. The placement of a single tree can, in theory, affect the perception of safety.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_p...nmental_design

The Windsor Police Service has used this approach with strong success in Ford City neighborhood.

My problem is the Detroit jab. However if you want to spin it constructively, Detroit, through CODE ENFORCEMENT, could effectively deter crime instead of just showing up 4 hours later. When the neighborhoods look like nobody gives a shit, criminals rightly figure nobody gives a shit or pays any attention any more.

[iheartthed]

You can disagree, but there is a school of thought that, in a roundabout way, believe that security gates do lead the perception of crime, and thus make an area more susceptible[[not cause) to crime. Again, you can disagree, but there is a ton of information out there that is widely promulgated by law enforcement today so don't be so dismissive. The placement of a single tree can, in theory, affect the perception of safety.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_p...nmental_design

The Windsor Police Service has used this approach with strong success in Ford City neighborhood.

My problem is the Detroit jab. However if you want to spin it constructively, Detroit, through CODE ENFORCEMENT, could effectively deter crime instead of just showing up 4 hours later. When the neighborhoods look like nobody gives a shit, criminals rightly figure nobody gives a shit or pays any attention any more.

I'm aware of those theories and this doesn't fit the criteria. Royal Oak's politicians are suggesting that security gates cause people to believe that an area is crime ridden. It's a misapplication of the crime prevention by design theory, which is using design as a functional deterrent to crime [[e.g. population density giving criminals less opportunity to commit crimes). Banning security shutters doesn't fit the bill.

[southen]

i lived in royal oak for two years before moving to the city, there is a HUGE difference in the crowds that go to royal oak on a friday and saturday night compared to those who travel to detroit for bar life. eventually we stopped going out in royal oak in favor of ferndale and clawson due to its more relaxed atmosphere. we didnt call the patrons in royal oak fratty, some of my good friends were in frats and in no way like those people, we went with ......y...

[Shollin]

I believe in the theory to an extent. When I drive through a neighborhood and every house has protected by ADT signs, I'm inclined to think it isn't the best neighborhood.

[southen]

apparently the word i used wont shot up. dooo-sheee was what i was going for.

[Detroitnerd]

Mayor Vaughn: Martin, it's all psychological. You yell barracuda, everybody says, "Huh? What?" You yell shark, we've got a panic on our hands on the Fourth of July.

[bailey]

Mayor Vaughn: Martin, it's all psychological. You yell barracuda, everybody says, "Huh? What?" You yell shark, we've got a panic on our hands on the Fourth of July.

so what you're saying.. by using that quote... is there is actually rampant property crime in RO necessitating fortress building and RO is trying sweep this crime wave under the rug?

Because, unless I watched a different Jaws... the whole point of that exchange was to downplay the presence of the shark.

[mauser]

i lived in royal oak for two years before moving to the city, there is a HUGE difference in the crowds that go to royal oak on a friday and saturday night compared to those who travel to detroit for bar life. eventually we stopped going out in royal oak in favor of ferndale and clawson due to its more relaxed atmosphere. we didnt call the patrons in royal oak fratty, some of my good friends were in frats and in no way like those people, we went with ......y...

Hm..I think we spotted one of the RO/Corktown Fratties right here. ...

[cramerro]

While I don't think that the roll-down necessarily incites panic, think about the feel of the pedestrian environment, and how it changes. You're walking around Downtown after hours and instead of 'window shopping' or walking past storefronts, you encounter steel walls. There is a different feel... wouldn't make me eager to come back the next day when shops are open to spend my $$$. And, the roll downs in the mall are totally different... they are at least partially see-through and are necessary becuase the stores literally don't have any doors to close after hours.

Also, in case anyone in interested where there is more to consider, Redford [[mentioned earlier) passed some changes to the ordinance they had in place that banned roll-downs for commercial businesses.

http://www.hometownlife.com/article/...yssey=obinsite

[Detroitnerd]

so what you're saying.. by using that quote... is there is actually rampant property crime in RO necessitating fortress building and RO is trying sweep this crime wave under the rug?

Because, unless I watched a different Jaws... the whole point of that exchange was to downplay the presence of the shark.

Well, the main point is that it's all psychological, yes? That this whole battle is about perceptions?

Maybe Royal Oak is like Amity Island in that it's trying to keep up appearances.

Maybe the liquor store owner is Martin Brody.

The threat could be crime, but that's more of a "Detroit" thing anyway.

I would caution anybody against trying to follow any analogy too far.

[iheartthed]

While I don't think that the roll-down necessarily incites panic, think about the feel of the pedestrian environment, and how it changes. You're walking around Downtown after hours and instead of 'window shopping' or walking past storefronts, you encounter steel walls. There is a different feel... wouldn't make me eager to come back the next day when shops are open to spend my $$$. And, the roll downs in the mall are totally different... they are at least partially see-through and are necessary becuase the stores literally don't have any doors to close after hours.

Also, in case anyone in interested where there is more to consider, Redford [[mentioned earlier) passed some changes to the ordinance they had in place that banned roll-downs for commercial businesses.

http://www.hometownlife.com/article/...yssey=obinsite

They make security shutters that you can see through. The Adidas store in SoHo, New York:

http://www.globalgraphica.com/main/a..._wooster_2.jpg

[Downtown]

This retailer isn't the first one in RO to have these... there's a jewelry store down the road with these blinds. I imagine that insurance costs are lower due to their installation.

I believe the T-Mobile store used to have them. [Is that were the jeweler now resides?] As I recall, they were perforated gates [[you could see through them). They may also have been installed just inside the glass.

[Det_ard]

I'm aware of those theories and this doesn't fit the criteria. Royal Oak's politicians are suggesting that security gates cause people to believe that an area is crime ridden. It's a misapplication of the crime prevention by design theory, which is using design as a functional deterrent to crime [[e.g. population density giving criminals less opportunity to commit crimes). Banning security shutters doesn't fit the bill.

Yes, because that's exactly what security gates cause people to believe. If you're walking along the street and you notice in one area everyone has a club secured to their steering wheel, unlike other areas you've passed through, you'd logically assume that area has a problem with car theft.


Thinking logically, why would a business spend multi-thousands of dollars on security gates for nothing? If the area is relatively crime-free there's no need nor financial benefit to spending unnecessarily on security devices.

[corktownyuppie]

RO being "a tad fratty" is a hell of an understatement.

It is the Lincoln Park or Murray Hill of the Detroit region.

Agreed. RO is not a tad fratty. I'm a tad fratty.

RO consistently takes .....b-aggery to ever soaring new heights. Young, white, and college educated can be segmented out into crowds as well...and it's funny, while many Detroiters may resent all of these higher income suburbanites coming into the city, a lot of those suburbanites come here because they're trying to enjoy a city lifestyle while also trying to get away from the total frattiness that can be Royal Oak on a Friday night. They're also lamenting because the upscale units opening up are attracting an ever-more -privileged crowd that is annoying.

But it's what comes along with a healthy real estate market, so I'll take it.

Hell, you wanna hear about gentrification? My landlord is telling me that Jalen Rose wants to live in my unit, and so if I want to stay, I'll need to up the rent.

Life is good for me, but not Jalen Rose good.

[detroitsgwenivere]

Putting up shutters and what-not for windows isn't always about crime deterrance. It's also about safety.

One night back in 1998, my friends and I walked downtown in RO to celebrate the Wing's Stanley Cup sweep against the Capitals. It was like watching one of those videos where some college's team wins, and the whole town erupts and cars burn and cops get their asses kicked, but without the car burnings or the ass kickings. One of our more inebriated friends [[understatement), in a fit of whooping and jumping about, smashed his elbow right through the storefront glass of a boutique, which was over an inch and a half thick, resulting in a severed artery and a zillion stitches. Within days, the store had roll down security gates.

In a bar heavy zone like downtown RO, that tends to draw the meatmarket crowd, incidents like the one above are more common than you'd think.

[iheartthed]

Yes, because that's exactly what security gates cause people to believe.

Yeah, I'm sure. I walk through SoHo in New York all the time and I never think "gee, this neighborhood with million dollar apartments and high-end shopping must be crime ridden because the businesses use security shutters!"

On second thought, however, I realize that people who care about things like security shutters probably would think a place like SoHo is crime ridden. So maybe you're right. Maybe those are the types of people who are attracted to places like Royal Oak. And the people who are attracted to real cities don't really care about that.

[southen]

Hm..I think we spotted one of the RO/Corktown Fratties right here. ...

if avoiding "club bars" so you can sit, relax and have a conversation is frattie than you and i have different definitions... thought my post was pretty clear that i did NOT like the atmosphere in royal oak, guess not.

[mauser]

just messing with you southen.

[Dent]

I used to shop RO on a regular basis, until one day I noticed something that changed all that. Whereas I once felt comfortable and safe in this shopping environment, my confidence was soon shaken by the appearance of something that spoke loudly to me from the building itself; something that said I was in an extremely dangerous place! What was this harbinger of doom? Why, up there on the ceiling was...a SMOKE ALARM! Clearly this place was about to go up in flames if such a device were installed in plain view, and to make things worse, there were sprinklers and a fire extinguisher to boot! I made my retreat from this tinder box never to return again. If RO is serious about these roll down shutters, then let them complete the thought and ban these items from view as well.