Royal Oak doesn't want security gates on retail.

[bailey]

Isn't half of Florida gated like this during the off season?

Yeah and they are there because they are first and foremost, hurricane shutters. My family has them on their house in florida... they did not put them up to keep out burglars.

People do need to get off the "it looks like Detroit" mindset. In Europe, many residential property has this type of gating on the homes.

I disagree. Municipalities can set whatever guides they want on what they will allow. Roll down blast doors are not typical nor deemed particularly aesthetically pleasing. Further, IN THIS REGION - ignoring the "they do it elsewhere" defense - shutters of this nature telegraph to the populace that there is a crime problem.

I could understand the uproar over the "accordion" "X" gates... but really these are sleek and clean looking...

Let me guess... they probably have ordinances against Armor Guard front and side doors as well?

If there is no ordinance on the books in Royal Oak and they put one out there... this place should either be grandfathered, or reimbursed for the $25K expenses at NOT having gone against an ordinance.

Agreed. a) they could have put up something far less clean; b) if there is no ordinance, RO is blowing smoke.

But again, ala the Broken Windows theory... if you allow this exception... there will be more people with them. And if it's in response to a REAL threat [[regular break-ins after hours in Downtown RO) and not perceived threat [[ooh, i'm close to Detroit, I saw some black people outside my store late at night and I think I will be robbed) that is addressing the wrong end of the problem. If there is a rash of break ins in RO that require businesses to build fortresses, then the RO and ROPD have some explaining to do. They need to spend less time handing out MIPs and nickle dime pot arrests and focus real crime.

[iheartthed]

But again, ala the Broken Windows theory... if you allow this exception... there will be more people with them. And if it's in response to a REAL threat [[regular break-ins after hours in Downtown RO) and not perceived threat [[ooh, i'm close to Detroit, I saw some black people outside my store late at night and I think I will be robbed) that is addressing the wrong end of the problem. If there is a rash of break ins in RO that require businesses to build fortresses, then the RO and ROPD have some explaining to do. They need to spend less time handing out MIPs and nickle dime pot arrests and focus real crime.

This is not an application of the Broken Windows theory. There are plenty of security shutters in Manhattan, where the theory was popularized.

[bailey]

This is not an application of the Broken Windows theory. There are plenty of security shutters in Manhattan, where the theory was popularized.

RO is not NYC..or Paris..or Detroit. There are no security shutters in RO because there is no need for them.

Allow this business to do it, and there will be more. because the perception will be that there is a crime problem. and then there is a drop in foot traffic because all anyone sees after 6pm is a bunch of rolled down shutters over businesses. Then comes the tagging of the doors. and then there is a decline in businesses that want to be there because they dont want to drop 25k to secure their buildings at night with shutters and deal with the tagging. etc, etc, etc.

It's "Broken windows" from the context of not allowing the small things to slip.

But again, as repeatedly pointed out.. if there is no ordinance against them, RO is SOL.

[iheartthed]

RO is not NYC..or Paris..or Detroit. There are no security shutters in RO because there is no need for them.

Allow this business to do it, and there will be more. because the perception will be that there is a crime problem. and then there is a drop in foot traffic because all anyone sees after 6pm is a bunch of rolled down shutters over businesses. Then comes the tagging of the doors. and then there is a decline in businesses that want to be there because they dont want to drop 25k to secure their buildings at night with shutters and deal with the tagging. etc, etc, etc.

I don't think I've ever walked through a mall near closing and thought "gee, all of these security shutters make me feel unsafe!"

Extreme leaps of logic still doesn't make the premise any less stupid. Security gates don't cause crime, nor do they lead to the perception of crime, nor do they cause graffiti. As someone pointed out above, certain types of businesses are required to have security shutters for insurance purposes.

Now, if RO just thinks that security gates are ugly then that's a different story. I could respect that! But trying to justify an aesthetic preference by conjuring up non-existent boogeymen is ridiculous.

[poobert]

Extreme leaps of logic still doesn't make the premise any less stupid. Security gates don't cause crime, nor do they lead to the perception of crime, nor do they cause graffiti.

You can disagree, but there is a school of thought that, in a roundabout way, believe that security gates do lead the perception of crime, and thus make an area more susceptible[[not cause) to crime. Again, you can disagree, but there is a ton of information out there that is widely promulgated by law enforcement today so don't be so dismissive. The placement of a single tree can, in theory, affect the perception of safety.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_p...nmental_design

The Windsor Police Service has used this approach with strong success in Ford City neighborhood.

My problem is the Detroit jab. However if you want to spin it constructively, Detroit, through CODE ENFORCEMENT, could effectively deter crime instead of just showing up 4 hours later. When the neighborhoods look like nobody gives a shit, criminals rightly figure nobody gives a shit or pays any attention any more.

[iheartthed]

You can disagree, but there is a school of thought that, in a roundabout way, believe that security gates do lead the perception of crime, and thus make an area more susceptible[[not cause) to crime. Again, you can disagree, but there is a ton of information out there that is widely promulgated by law enforcement today so don't be so dismissive. The placement of a single tree can, in theory, affect the perception of safety.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_p...nmental_design

The Windsor Police Service has used this approach with strong success in Ford City neighborhood.

My problem is the Detroit jab. However if you want to spin it constructively, Detroit, through CODE ENFORCEMENT, could effectively deter crime instead of just showing up 4 hours later. When the neighborhoods look like nobody gives a shit, criminals rightly figure nobody gives a shit or pays any attention any more.

I'm aware of those theories and this doesn't fit the criteria. Royal Oak's politicians are suggesting that security gates cause people to believe that an area is crime ridden. It's a misapplication of the crime prevention by design theory, which is using design as a functional deterrent to crime [[e.g. population density giving criminals less opportunity to commit crimes). Banning security shutters doesn't fit the bill.

[southen]

apparently the word i used wont shot up. dooo-sheee was what i was going for.

[Det_ard]

I'm aware of those theories and this doesn't fit the criteria. Royal Oak's politicians are suggesting that security gates cause people to believe that an area is crime ridden. It's a misapplication of the crime prevention by design theory, which is using design as a functional deterrent to crime [[e.g. population density giving criminals less opportunity to commit crimes). Banning security shutters doesn't fit the bill.

Yes, because that's exactly what security gates cause people to believe. If you're walking along the street and you notice in one area everyone has a club secured to their steering wheel, unlike other areas you've passed through, you'd logically assume that area has a problem with car theft.


Thinking logically, why would a business spend multi-thousands of dollars on security gates for nothing? If the area is relatively crime-free there's no need nor financial benefit to spending unnecessarily on security devices.