The Packard Plant is on fire, again!

[Blarf]

I'm just saying NO one has any business going in ANY building that dosnt belong to them for ANY reason.

Really? I don't own the Guardian Building but I walked into the lobby 3 days ago. I guess I had NO business being there for ANY reason, right?

[kraig]

Here's the thing about going into an abandoned building like the Packard Plant. If a fire breaks out, the fire fighters have to put themselves at a greater risk to search the building in order to get someone out if there is evidence that someone is in the building.

There's probably not any malicious intent on the part of those entering the buildings. But, they need to understand that their actions, while benign, can put other people at risk.

[MADDOG]

Here's the thing about going into an abandoned building like the Packard Plant. If a fire breaks out, the fire fighters have to put themselves at a greater risk to search the building in order to get someone out if there is evidence that someone is in the building.

There's probably not any malicious intent on the part of those entering the buildings. But, they need to understand that their actions, while benign, can put other people at risk.

Thank You ! At least someone understands....... That was the point i was trying to get acrossed. That building is a DEATH Trap and is not worth anyones Life.

[MADDOG]

Really? I don't own the Guardian Building but I walked into the lobby 3 days ago. I guess I had NO business being there for ANY reason, right?

Little Different when it’s an occupied building open to the public.....

[Blarf]

Little Different when it’s an occupied building open to the public.....

You didn't specify that.
But you said "I'm just saying NO one has any business going in ANY building that dosnt belong to them for ANY reason."

Besides, with every door open, and no signs saying you can't enter, and no efforts to keep people out, one could technically assume the building is open to the public.

[wolverine]

Thank You ! At least someone understands....... That was the point i was trying to get acrossed. That building is a DEATH Trap and is not worth anyones Life.

The firefighter point is a valid one, although it's really misdirected advice on this forum or the majority of people who go in the place. I'm going to assume most of the photographers aren't starting the fires, so that really leaves the vandals and scrappers as the ones who are putting their own and other's lives in danger.

Just be happy these trespassing laws are protecting YOURS and MY rights to keep people off our property. The urban explorers will stick to the couple dozen open and abandoned buildings around the city that their owners could care less about.

[MIRepublic]

I think someone said this above, but does the building even have an owner, anymore? As far as I heard, the ownership of the complex is so mixed up and in limbo, no one seems to know who owns it. Isn't that about as close as you'll get to a truly and fully abandoned property?

[kraig]

The firefighter point is a valid one, although it's really misdirected advice on this forum or the majority of people who go in the place. I'm going to assume most of the photographers aren't starting the fires, so that really leaves the vandals and scrappers as the ones who are putting their own and other's lives in danger.

Just be happy these trespassing laws are protecting YOURS and MY rights to keep people off our property. The urban explorers will stick to the couple dozen open and abandoned buildings around the city that their owners could care less about.

Wow, telling someone not to put a firefighter's life in even more danger is misdirected advice?

Ladies and gentlemen, I would like to nominate Wolverine as Humanitarian of the Year.

The danger comes from anyone being in an unsafe structure. The reason for being there is beside the point. Whether your a scrapper, arsonists, urban dweller, all around great person or scum of the earth. The firemen are going to risk their lives trying to save you. Have you forgotten, Walt Harris and good people like him gave their lives to this kind of stupidity.

[Traxus]

Okay, so fair points about the firefighters.

Honestly though, how may lives have been saved from a fire at the Packard? If I were a photographing there and saw a fire in my vicinity I would

A). Leave
B). Call the fire dept.

Point is, no one is going to stand around and watch a fire surround them.

Firefighters know their occupational hazards as do urban photographers. People get caught in stupid situations, legal or not, and firefighters have chosen a profession that gives them a moral, if not civic obligation to help these people. Now don't get me wrong, this is an entirely noble decision on their part, but a personal decision does not give you the right to dictate other peoples lifestyle choices.

I'd be willing to bet that more people are injured per incidence in car fires than at Packard. Are you going to advise people not to drive unless they absolutely have to? What about kitchen fires, what are the numbers like on those? Should we keep cooking to a minimum?

And regarding the pity plea to Walt Harris, for a large part the packard is fireproof. The wood floors and Garbage will burn [[and there sure is a lot of both), but Kahn's design doesn't really provide room for a complex wide fire that will burn the thing to the ground. The fire would have to get hot enough to melt the steel support beams through the concrete before the place started to fall apart.

The majority of the structural damage that occurs to the building can be blamed on the weather, with scrappers following at moderately close second. Generally, in the winter [[this past one especially) the freeze/thaw cycle will disrupt the weakened concrete in the same fashion that it tears apart our roads.

Now I'm not out to kill firefighters, but this crusade is being blown out of proportion.

[kraig]

Okay, so fair points about the firefighters.

Honestly though, how may lives have been saved from a fire at the Packard? If I were a photographing there and saw a fire in my vicinity I would

A). Leave
B). Call the fire dept.

Point is, no one is going to stand around and watch a fire surround them.

Firefighters know their occupational hazards as do urban photographers. People get caught in stupid situations, legal or not, and firefighters have chosen a profession that gives them a moral, if not civic obligation to help these people. Now don't get me wrong, this is an entirely noble decision on their part, but a personal decision does not give you the right to dictate other peoples lifestyle choices.

I'd be willing to bet that more people are injured per incidence in car fires than at Packard. Are you going to advise people not to drive unless they absolutely have to? What about kitchen fires, what are the numbers like on those? Should we keep cooking to a minimum?

And regarding the pity plea to Walt Harris, for a large part the packard is fireproof. The wood floors and Garbage will burn [[and there sure is a lot of both), but Kahn's design doesn't really provide room for a complex wide fire that will burn the thing to the ground. The fire would have to get hot enough to melt the steel support beams through the concrete before the place started to fall apart.

The majority of the structural damage that occurs to the building can be blamed on the weather, with scrappers following at moderately close second. Generally, in the winter [[this past one especially) the freeze/thaw cycle will disrupt the weakened concrete in the same fashion that it tears apart our roads.

Now I'm not out to kill firefighters, but this crusade is being blown out of proportion.

You're argument is weak as hell.

Fireproof. That thing is on fire constantly.

Walt Harris, pity plea? This was a real man that lost his life.

The comparison that you should make are those of responsibility.

[Fnemecek]

Kraig and I are now in complete agreement on two different threads. How did this happen?

[wolverine]

Wow, telling someone not to put a firefighter's life in even more danger is misdirected advice?

Ladies and gentlemen, I would like to nominate Wolverine as Humanitarian of the Year.

The danger comes from anyone being in an unsafe structure. The reason for being there is beside the point. Whether your a scrapper, arsonists, urban dweller, all around great person or scum of the earth. The firemen are going to risk their lives trying to save you. Have you forgotten, Walt Harris and good people like him gave their lives to this kind of stupidity.

Thank you for that nomination. The point of my post was that firefighters will still sweep the building no matter what. Your advice does not fix the problem. I agreed with you that it does put firefighters lives in danger, and that people going in are part of the problem. Now please be seated.

[Traxus]

Fireproof. That thing is on fire constantly.

The wood floors and scattered garbage will burn. That is always what burns. Look at the photos. The concrete steel and glass will not. I said the structure itself is fireproof. It is entirely unlikely that a fire will cause the actual structure to collapse.

Walt Harris, pity plea? This was a real man that lost his life.

You're making an offhand analogy to an arson case regarding a house fire. Just because its abandon doesn't put it in the same category. There was no one in the house to save, they obviously entered for other purposes. I guess the base of this argument, that firefighters would have to go out of their way in fighting a fire to save lives is now irrelevant?

I feel for the guy and his family, really. To die in the midst of an arson related fire is unacceptable. The real issue in that case is why the house hadn't been taken care of prior to the incident. It obviously wouldn't have cost the estimated $35 million that will be required to demo the Packard. Regardless, to flash this guys name in the midst of an argument is insensitive at the least, an appeal to emotion.

The comparison that you should make are those of responsibility.

Some people, especially the explorers that I know, are responsible. Others [[an obscenely small minority I might add) are not. This stands true inside and outside of the Packard Plant and is hardly grounds to condemn anyone. To make curve balled attacks at someone based on this fact of life is immature.

You're argument is weak as hell.

Before reaching such hasty generalizations, please post something that surmounts to more than a couple of one liners. Something that provides room for real discussion.

[Traxus]

I used to play in there when I was a kid in the 70s. At that time it housed a Dept Store .

It was pretty fun picking through all the left over documents and such.

Its sad what has happened to my old home.

Oh well, I guess my nostalgia and fond memories of the glorious city it once used to be will remain just that.

Yanno, we would be out at all times in that neighborhood in the late 60's early 70s.

I know, its sappy but I miss those days when home was a safe clean place where everyone knew and cared for one another.

That's nuts, I would have loved to been there a mere 10 years after it was abandon, if nothing more than to have a comparison to what it is now. The urban prairie surrounding that place is immense. What's left of the surrounding residential area gives me the feeling that it was a pretty tight-knit hood. I guess its hard not to be when your houses are only three feet apart.

[MADDOG]

Listen Here Traxus, Lets Leave Walt Harris out of it, Walt was a GREAT Man, Friend and Firefighter, Who Died in the Line of Duty PROTECTING the Citzens of the City of Detroit. There is NO REASON to bring him into this.

[Traxus]

Listen Here Traxus, Lets Leave Walt Harris out of it, Walt was a GREAT Man, Friend and Firefighter, Who Died in the Line of Duty PROTECTING the Citzens of the City of Detroit. There is NO REASON to bring him into this.

We can leave this to rest, in agreement on that note. Drawing his name into this was not my doing.

The danger comes from anyone being in an unsafe structure. The reason for being there is beside the point. Whether your a scrapper, arsonists, urban dweller, all around great person or scum of the earth. The firemen are going to risk their lives trying to save you. Have you forgotten, Walt Harris and good people like him gave their lives to this kind of stupidity.