"Frank Rizzo"

[jt1]

I spoke of the barbershops because that's what he specifically said. I'm not denying there are plenty of racists, but it's almost always undercover because it's not socially acceptable in the white community. If there is a room full of whites and someone starts saying racist things you wanna know what really happens? Everyone gets very uncomfortable and that person is essentially ignored and ostracized. And depending on who is there they may get directly challenged for being a racist POS.

I'm sorry if that doesn't fit your preconceived notions, but that's how it really is. I'm pretty sure the overt racists do a good job of keeping it to themselves or with others that they know are like minded. I don't doubt there are dive bars or places like that where you can hear that kind of talk somewhat openly but as a general rule it is definitely not appreciated in any public place I've been. Private homes, garages, basements etc - I don't doubt any of that, but overt racism is not tolerated in any public places that I've ever been. That shit is a big no-no.



Tell us which ones - stop holding out on us.

It appears that there are one of two things at play here [[1) you are in a very different room of 'whites' than many/most of the rest of the white people on this board [[myself included) or [[2) you simply do not notice the very blatant yet veiled racism.

Are you telling me that when you are in a room in the suburbs with a number of whites and somoene says 'they ruined the city', they are called out for being racist? Are you saying that when you are in a room full of white people and someone says' "you can't live safely south of 16 mile road", they are called out for their veiled racism?

Sorry, we are in the same general age cracket and if you don't hear that type of stuff consisently you hang out with a very, very rare crowd or simply don't notice it. My guess is it is the latter of the two. When I am in most areas of suburbia [[or anywhere in the state for that matter) if is hard to escape whether I am part of the conversation or just happen to eat lunch next to Mr. Rizzo

[jt1]

Please don't speak about generalizing - every post you've made is one big generalization. The title of this thread is a generalization.

Still waiting on you to out all of these racist barbershops you keep going on about...or was that just another made up generalization like "Frank Rizzo"?

OK, let's skip the barbershops and look no further than the comment section in the news and freep. Since they have changed from an anonymous forum the amount racism [[blatant and veiled) has not changed.

[detroitsgwenivere]

It's hard for some to articulate their feelings regarding folks who tend to do and say some of the exact same things [[generalizing), without coming off as a hypocrite. I think there is a difference between stereotyping, blanket generalizations, and talking about people who willingly partake in behavior that allows one to be identified with a certain group.

I can pick out a Frank Rizzo. They defer to some very specific language and viewpoints. I'm related to 2 of them, and I have to hear some of the most vile, effed up reflections about myself from them. Everything from how I've sold myself and my life short wasting my time and resources living in "that shithole town with those people", to how I sound when I talk [["you've been hangin around them n*gg*rs too long, learn how to talk white"). Or speaking in hushed tones to some of my highly educated Corktown neighbors about how I should seriously consider running for mayor [[as if) since Detroit could really use a white mayor, and I could do a much better job than the corrupt black politicians that ran this city into the ground, after they burned out and chased out the whites. "Time for the whites to take their city back." How embarrassing....

And those people? Bleeding heart spineless commie pinko liberal facists [[city gov and unions), illegals [[anyone except western europeans with a foreign accent, legal or not), Cadillac drivin gold chain and moomoo wearin fat assed welfare queens [[single mothers), pants saggin tag spraying nappyheaded savages back talkin to good policeMEN needin to be strung up for their daily ass whuppin [[children of single mothers), long-hair lazy n-lovin community organizin traiters [[whites who live in black neighborhoods willingly), cologne bathin raghead terrorists [[obvious), thieven pimpin drug peddlin crap shootin child rapists who do nothing but stand on the corner or in front of the liquor store and lust after white women [[also obvious). Anyone offended yet?

It is rare that anyone who would like to keep their teeth would talk like that to strangers or aquaintances. Most suburbanites I've known wouldn't talk like this amongst friends and family. But Frank Rizzos will talk like this amongst their own, and in coded language in the presence of others, that's what makes them unique, and easily grouped into a stereotype, which i will gladly do.

Detroit has it's racists too. But we're talking about Frank rizzos right now. If someone else wants to open up the "white devils" thread, by all means.... not that it will make the conversation anymore productive.

[JVB]

or [[2) you simply do not notice the very blatant yet veiled racism.

I think blatant and veiled are two completely different things. I've caught veiled racism before, sure. My comments were in regards to how someone would probably be treated for making some blatantly racist statements like "those goddamn blacks are always [insert racist generalization]". Did you read the examples that detroitnerd gave - that's the type of comments I was referring to. I've never been in a public place where that would be acceptable, at least not to my knowledge. Veiled racism is something very different and I'm sure most blacks and whites have heard countless examples of that.

OK, let's skip the barbershops and look no further than the comment section in the news and freep. Since they have changed from an anonymous forum the amount racism [[blatant and veiled) has not changed.

Yeah that's f*cking disgusting. Some of those are troll accounts if you click through to the attached Facebook, but yeah that's a different world than I occupy apparently.

@detroitsgwenivere - I don't mean to call you out, but why on earth would you continue to associate with people like that? Maybe I don't see it because I refuse to put up with shit like that.

[jt1]

I think blatant and veiled are two completely different things. I've caught veiled racism before, sure. My comments were in regards to how someone would probably be treated for making some blatantly racist statements like "those goddamn blacks are always [insert racist generalization]". Did you read the examples that detroitnerd gave - that's the type of comments I was referring to. I've never been in a public place where that would be acceptable, at least not to my knowledge. Veiled racism is something very different and I'm sure most blacks and whites have heard countless examples of that.



Yeah that's f*cking disgusting. Some of those are troll accounts if you click through to the attached Facebook, but yeah that's a different world than I occupy apparently.

Fair point about the different response between the blatant and veiled racism. My question is: Why should the response be different. To be honest, I'd prefer my racists to be blatant about it, at least it is clear what they believe. The veiled racism [[and those that let it be said without calling someone out) is worse that the completely obvious racists.

Therein, I believe, lies the problem. People may get called out for dropping the n bomb, but comments about 'those people' results in a number of people agreeing with them. I'd rather racists be racists and assholes about it than racists and cowards about their opinion. I believe the Mr. Rizzos being discussed are the even worse combination of being racist and cowardly.

[JVB]

To be honest, I'd prefer my racists to be blatant about it, at least it is clear what they believe.

I agree with that. But the "veiled racism" isn't always really racism either. You gave the example about people not wanting to live south of 16. Never heard that, but once I moved out of Detroit I did start hearing people talk about south of 8 mile being less desirable. Is that racism, or is that true? Granted, the population is majority black, but is it ok for people to not want to live around high crime and shitty schools regardless of the area demographics? So for some that say that, they may be referring to blacks in code, while others just don't want to deal with the crime or the schools. Should we just assume that someone that doesn't want to live south of a particular mile road is a racist?

[Honky Tonk]

I agree with that. But the "veiled racism" isn't always really racism either. You gave the example about people not wanting to live south of 16. Never heard that, but once I moved out of Detroit I did start hearing people talk about south of 8 mile being less desirable. Is that racism, or is that true? Granted, the population is majority black, but is ok for people to not want to live around high crime and shitty schools regardless of the area demographics? So for some that say that, they may be referring to blacks in code, while others just don't want to deal with the crime or the schools. Should we just assume that someone that doesn't want to live south of a particular mile road is a racist?

That's what they want you to believe. If you're tired of dealing with the BS in Detroit, and just want to step out of your house in the morning and find your property clean and in tact, well then, we'll label you a "Frank Rizzo", [[what ever the fuck THAT is), AND your a RACIST too. I have a question, what about the white people that get the shit kicked out of them by black people for no apparent reason other then skin color. Is there an equivelant name for those black people as well?

[jt1]

That's what they want you to believe. If you're tired of dealing with the BS in Detroit, and just want to step out of your house in the morning and find your property clean and in tact, well then, we'll label you a "Frank Rizzo", [[what ever the fuck THAT is), AND your a RACIST too. I have a question, what about the white people that get the shit kicked out of them by black people for no apparent reason other then skin color. Is there an equivelant name for those black people as well?

Who is 'they' and what do they 'want' you to beleive. See, I mentioned the comments [[that I hear often) that you can't live south of 16 [[because 'they' have moved north) and you and JVB have turned it into why Detroit isn't a viable city to live in and that is why people are called racist.

See how that works. As opposed to dealing with the topic at hand, change it [[such as changing the mile road, and intent) then speak about how f'ed up Detroit is [[yes, it is) and point out that if you aren't willing to live in Detroit then people must consider you racist.

Solid attempt but both you and JVB have veered far of course. My comment had nothing to do with Detroit but you guys did a quick job of making it about Detroit to deflect.

And to answer your second question: yes, black people that kick the shit out of white people for the color of their skin are racist assholes. Of course, again, you are deflecting to point out ALL the many, many incidents of the poor victimized white people out there.

When you don't care to discuss the toppic at hand it is always easier to [[a) point out how f'ed up Detroit is or [[b) point out how difficult life is for all the millions and millions of whites that are routinely harrassed by tht angry, racist black mob.

[detroitsgwenivere]

@detroitsgwenivere - I don't mean to call you out, but why on earth would you continue to associate with people like that? Maybe I don't see it because I refuse to put up with shit like that.

Dont worry, if I can post it, im not offended by you asking me about it.

You cant pick family, or their friends, and thankfully they are only that ripe on occasion. It seems to have gotten worse since Obama was elected.

I left Royal Oak for home [[Detroit) as a teen when suburban living became way too demoralizing for me, and I've had to explain myself to my suburban family and friends ever since. The rizzos are the ones that never seem to get it and probably never will, but I never give up trying to turn them to the light side of the force. Sometimes that means calling them out, and further explaination of how their comments are presumptive, racist, unnecessary, etc. I guess I'm just a glutton for punishment.

[313WX]

...See, I mentioned the comments [[that I hear often) that you can't live south of 16 [[because 'they' have moved north)...

I thought M-59/Hall Road was the new 8 Mile these days, while Eastpointe/Roseville/Center Line/Warren/Clinton Township/Sterling Heights are where Grandma and Grandpa's house is?

[jt1]

I thought M-59/Hall Road was the new 8 Mile these days, while Eastpointe/Roseville/Center Line/Warren/Clinton Township/Sterling Heights are where Grandma and Grandpa's house are?

It should be "where Grandma and Grandpa's house was" since you can't live there because of the schools, property values, etc, etc

[corktownyuppie]

First, I hear a lot of anger from most of the people who've posted so far, which means many people have probably been unjustly hurt from the action of others who are not like them. This angers me as well.

Second, Being neither white or black, the white and the blacks who choose to have me close to them tend to be the kinds of people who are open to hanging out with people unlike them. So I pretty much self-select against really hard core racists on each side. I guess that's why I don't see too much of the blatant racism Detroitnerd talks about. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist...it's just stuff I don't really see.

Third, some people say that blacks have ruined Detroit. Some people say that whites started it with all the Jim Crow and discrimination bullshit. Some people say that rich people are to blame for screwing and oppressing the poor. Some people say that poor people are to blame because they are a drag on everyone.

Well, the truth is that all of those statements have factual elements to them. It's also true that none of them are totally accurate. Placing 100% attachment to your own personal worldview is a good way to not make progress in dealing with these issues.

Lastly, this is why I asked this thread to be pulled off my original post on young people moving back to the city. But what's interesting is that we've never discussed what is it about that which triggered this conversation? I think it's pretty important to understand.

If white privileged people with money triggers resentment, then we should deal with that internally now. Because, guess what, the city needs every dollar it can get right now...and bringing in people of any color with means and resources is exactly what need to be doing.

If bringing in people with resources triggers resentment, then let's address it.

[JVB]

See, I mentioned the comments [[that I hear often) that you can't live south of 16 [[because 'they' have moved north) and you and JVB have turned it into why Detroit isn't a viable city to live in and that is why people are called racist.

I only mentioned 8 mile because that is the only mile road I've heard people talk bad about. I've never heard anyone talking about south of 16 mile being undesirable, I was just acknowledging that I had heard that kind of talk, but it wasn't 16 Mile, it was 8 Mile. Perhaps you missed the point I was making?

[313WX]

I've never heard anyone talking about south of 16 mile being undesirable, I was just acknowledging that I had heard that kind of talk, but it wasn't 16 Mile, it was 8 Mile.

I've heard a lot of agree that I-696 is the dividing line these days.

[Honky Tonk]

Who is 'they' and what do they 'want' you to beleive. See, I mentioned the comments [[that I hear often) that you can't live south of 16 [[because 'they' have moved north) and you and JVB have turned it into why Detroit isn't a viable city to live in and that is why people are called racist.

See how that works. As opposed to dealing with the topic at hand, change it [[such as changing the mile road, and intent) then speak about how f'ed up Detroit is [[yes, it is) and point out that if you aren't willing to live in Detroit then people must consider you racist.

Solid attempt but both you and JVB have veered far of course. My comment had nothing to do with Detroit but you guys did a quick job of making it about Detroit to deflect.

And to answer your second question: yes, black people that kick the shit out of white people for the color of their skin are racist assholes. Of course, again, you are deflecting to point out ALL the many, many incidents of the poor victimized white people out there.

When you don't care to discuss the toppic at hand it is always easier to [[a) point out how f'ed up Detroit is or [[b) point out how difficult life is for all the millions and millions of whites that are routinely harrassed by tht angry, racist black mob.

Well THANX for your opinions. As I reread the thread, the subject @ hand seems to be anyone who lives in the 'burbs is a thinly veiled racist. When the argument was presented that that wasn't necessarily the case, you don't want to hear it. When reasons are pointed out why someone would choose to live outside the City, you yell "Detroit bashing". You are, of course, entitled to your opinions, one sided as they may be.

[jt1]

Well THANX for your opinions. As I reread the thread, the subject @ hand seems to be anyone who lives in the 'burbs is a thinly veiled racist. When the argument was presented that that wasn't necessarily the case, you don't want to hear it. When reasons are pointed out why someone would choose to live outside the City, you yell "Detroit bashing". You are, of course, entitled to your opinions, one sided as they may be.

Incorrect on both accounts:

1. I believe it is clear that the topic at hand is about the veiled racism in the suburbs which does not imply that all suburbanites are racist.

2. I did not 'yell "Detroit bashing", I pointed out how when discussing the veiled racism of some in the suburbs it is often easily to delfect the conversation to how messed up Detroit is. When I mentioned the thinkly veiled racist comment about not being able to live south of 16, JVB chose to change it to 8 mile then complain about Detroit. In fact, my follow up post even acknowledges how messed up Detroit is and only spoke of the tendency to deflect the conversation to how messed up Detroit is as opposed to staying on the topic at hand.

I'm perfectly comfortable that there are a number of reasons to live outside the city and that everyone has their own tastes and desires. What I am not comfortable with are claims that 'they ruined Detroit' and the like.

If you're going to claim my opinions are one sided at least have the common courtesy to follow the conversation without inferring something that was never said or implied.

[Gistok]

Hahaha. That's awful, Hermod.

My favorite dig at my heritage came courtesy of Don Rickles: "Laugh at bigotry, people. We need the Germans, we need the French, we need the Italians. Wait, why do we need the Italians? Oh, yeah, are my shoes ready? Take the nails out of your mouth, you'll talk better."

DetroitNerd... if you're Italian then Thursday night on PBS is for you... first an aerial tour of southern Italy [[8PM)... then a special on metro Detroit Italian-Americans [[8:30PM), and then Italian-American culture at the Detroit Opera House.... [[9:30PM)

[Hermod]

And to answer your second question: yes, black people that kick the shit out of white people for the color of their skin are racist assholes. Of course, again, you are deflecting to point out ALL the many, many incidents of the poor victimized white people out there.

There are not more such incidents simply because the whites chose their environments and keep moving away from where it happens. The victimized white people are usually the ones too poor and too unfortunate to move away.

[gnome]

Are we to believe that the evidence presented by Dnerd comes from his time spent within the walls of several unnamed barbershops?

have you ever seen this guy? To suggest Mr. nerd spends any time in a barbershop is not credible. At its most basic level a barbershop is a place devoted to grooming, and grooming is not in the Nerdian wheelhouse.

I think a little naming names is in order. As loath as I am to venture into Macomb County, I will willingly do so just to get my hair cut. I don't have much hair, but I will sacrifice it for research.

Anybody with me? A flash-mob of undercover racial researching?

But I think the names of these bastions of racial bigotry will not be proffered. The names will stay locked away inside someone's imagination.

Right where they started.

[Islandman]

You can always get your moustache trimmed, gnome.

[coracle]

I am with JVB. I have been going to the same "white" barbershop for the last 43 years and I never once heard the n-word or anyone complaining about the poor of any color! Detroitnerd your generalities are very misplaced.

They're not misplaced, they're "calved" straw Barber Shops so he can spew his hatred and prejudices. He obviously makes it up as he goes along.

[JVB]

When I mentioned the thinkly veiled racist comment about not being able to live south of 16, JVB chose to change it to 8 mile then complain about Detroit.

Why do you keep saying that, when that's not what was said? You do realize that in a forum post people can back and read what was written don't you?

But I think the names of these bastions of racial bigotry will not be proffered. The names will stay locked away inside someone's imagination.

Right where they started.

That's why I called him out on it, I knew he was making it up as an excuse to spew his racial diatribe.

[Honky Tonk]

They're not misplaced, they're "calved" straw Barber Shops so he can spew his hatred and prejudices. He obviously makes it up as he goes along.

Well he accomplished what he came for, everybody is @ each others throat. To deny racism doesn't exist is unrealistic. To paint everyone who chooses not to live in Detroit with a racist brush is plain BS. I have family in the 'burbs, seriously ritzy 'burbs, and their neighborhood is a mixture of races. They don't understand why I choose to live where I do, but it's safety and amenties, that's the puzzlement, not racism. Not everyone wants to spend their lives fighting the good fight.

[canuck]

Are we to believe that the evidence presented by Dnerd comes from his time spent within the walls of several unnamed barbershops?

have you ever seen this guy? To suggest Mr. nerd spends any time in a barbershop is not credible. At its most basic level a barbershop is a place devoted to grooming, and grooming is not in the Nerdian wheelhouse.

I think a little naming names is in order. As loath as I am to venture into Macomb County, I will willingly do so just to get my hair cut. I don't have much hair, but I will sacrifice it for research.

Anybody with me? A flash-mob of undercover racial researching?

But I think the names of these bastions of racial bigotry will not be proffered. The names will stay locked away inside someone's imagination.

Right where they started.

Looking for a barbershop in Macomb or looking for ma comb in a barbershop?

[jt1]

Why do you keep saying that, when that's not what was said? You do realize that in a forum post people can back and read what was written don't you?

Re-read your post 52. You dismiss my statement by mentioning that people say you can't live south of 8 mile, then use that as a means to state that there is nothing inherently racist in the statement because Detroit is messed up.

There are two things at play here:
1. You glossed over the south of 16 mile statement [[and again, I want to hang out where you do if you never hear of such things) because that would continue the dialogue at hand.

2. You bring up a similar type of statement that distorts the conversation, to justify the statement I mentioned is not veiled racism.

Sooooo, a couple facts [[1) I have heard you can't live south of 16 many, many times. Do you find that to be veiled racism [[even if you've never heard it) [[2) I agree when people say you can't live south of 8 because the city is messed up but that has nothing to do with the original statement presented.