Young People Moving into the Downtown Area from the Suburbs: Reviews, Please.

[eno]

Sure, there are young people moving in to Detroit. But will they stay there when they marry and/or have children and have to decide where they will go to school.

[mwilbert]

Sure, there are young people moving in to Detroit. But will they stay there when they marry and/or have children and have to decide where they will go to school.

I think people worry about this too much. Certainly it is a problem, but there are a lot of people who don't plan to have kids, or who have already had them and are done, or who wouldn't use public schools in any case. And there isn't anything wrong with having people live in the city for a while and then move when their needs change.

If Detroit were seen as a good place to live for people without children, that would make it suitable for a pretty good chunk of the population--much more than the percentage of households in the metro area which currently live in Detroit, for instance. We should try to improve the schools for the sake of the children who have to attend them, but it seems to me unlikely that they will be good enough to retain people who care about schools and have other choices for the foreseeable future.

[Lowell]

Sure, there are young people moving in to Detroit. But will they stay there when they marry and/or have children and have to decide where they will go to school.

Some will go, some will stay. Other kids from the burbs and beyond will replace them. The allure of being in an urban center with its art, culture, sports and night life will remain attractive to the young and adventurous. The absence of those attractions in the burbs and beyond will also remain as a driving-away force.

[corktownyuppie]

Some will go, some will stay. Other kids from the burbs and beyond will replace them. The allure of being in an urban center with its art, culture, sports and night life will remain attractive to the young and adventurous. The absence of those attractions in the burbs and beyond will also remain as a driving-away force.

Yes. And the role of raising children in society has changed over the last 50 years and over the last 2 generations. Think about it, for families born in the 50s and 60s, it was common to have 3-4+ children in the family. Without birth control, there was no such thing as "working on your career" until you were 35.

I know that most people will not stay here to raise their kids, and I don't worry too much about that. People with families is likely the opposite of the "canary in the coal mine"; that segment will likely be the very, very last to come to Detroit, and that's fine. You can build a fairly respectable and healthy city with the never-ending influx of young people that graduate every year, those who are choosing not to have children, retirees moving back, etc.

No, it won't be Detroit circa 1950. But I don't think that's necessarily the goal, either.

[ScienceFair]

Yes. And the role of raising children in society has changed over the last 50 years and over the last 2 generations. Think about it, for families born in the 50s and 60s, it was common to have 3-4+ children in the family. Without birth control, there was no such thing as "working on your career" until you were 35.

I know that most people will not stay here to raise their kids, and I don't worry too much about that. People with families is likely the opposite of the "canary in the coal mine"; that segment will likely be the very, very last to come to Detroit, and that's fine. You can build a fairly respectable and healthy city with the never-ending influx of young people that graduate every year, those who are choosing not to have children, retirees moving back, etc.

No, it won't be Detroit circa 1950. But I don't think that's necessarily the goal, either.

Bingo! Nailed it. I have lived in Detroit for 6 years [[Boston Edison 1 + Kales 1 + Brush Park 4) and I can say that things have changed dramatically in that time, but that's not to say that Detroit is going to ever be what it used to be. I hate to say the "new normal," but it's a completely apples to oranges comparison to how the city was 50 years ago. I have met a lot of young people starting families in Downtown/Midtown in areas that were never residential before.

Boston Edison was a bit to real for a kid from the suburbs moving to the city for the first time, but it made the move downtown/midtown a lot more palatable. BE has some great houses and nice people, but you have to really want to be there and invest your life into that kind of arrangement.

Downtown is a lot of fun, and is well-suited to a young urban lifestyle. If you're single, working downtown and have some disposable income, you can live like a baller. You could not live that kind of lifestyle coming out of college in a "real" city like NYC or Chicago unless you are an invetment banker or something.

Midtown has been my favorite place so far. Our little enclave along Watson street has been a safe and enjoyable location as we begin to raise a family. There is enough open space that you can take your dog out and have a BBQ, but it's also close enough to downtown and all that good stuff that you can walk or bike. We have a grocery store [[and another one coming) and we're just down the street from Eastern Market. Like others, the school issue is heavy on our minds, but moreover, if we need to move [[more kids, more space) we may get priced out of our own neighborhood. Ha.

The bad side:There are still pockets of crime in downtown and midtown and it's a reality you have to live with. I have seen cars stolen during Tiger games and heard a fare share of gunfire but I've not experienced anything personally while living in Midtown. In my experience, the good far outweighs the bad. It is unrealistic to expect a utopia where everyone is always safe and nothing bad happens, so you just have to real about it.

[leapfrog]

Make no mistake: Detroit is a dangerous place. For most people - especially young people with few other familial ties to the city - it mostly translates into the need for "street smarts." That is, looking over your shoulder, being on your guard, locking everything. It affects the quality of life, to be sure. It wears on you, having to be wary virtually all the time. Still, you don't feel as if you are in imminent danger. In fact I write this on a particularly cold, quiet evening in Detroit, in a single family home no less, far from any apartment-bunkers, and all is quiet on the eastern front.

Therein lies the difference. The Frank Rizzos - mostly 'boomers - often feel that simply crossing the city limits is like stepping into a minefield - That an apartment is automatically a slum, that minorities are criminals, that the highest status symbol one can attain is not fame, wisdom, fortune, glory, women, or power, but a poorly constructed suburban dwelling. This has all changed. The American capacity for change is astounding, witness the last decade, even.

I don't live downtown, and in fact I never did. I lived in greater downtown and now in one of Detroit's better neighborhoods [[EEV). I have liked them all in their particular ways. As I have said before, though, Detroit is fucked beyond belief. Part of it is math. There isn't the population/taxes to deliver the services needed over the landmass. The other part is leadership. No one here is willing or able to bring this city into the last quarter of the 20th century, let alone the 21st.

Young people will move to Detroit but I think the greater issue is that young people will move on. Detroit is the stepping stone to real, functioning cities for too many people. We have made clear our institutional opposition to change here.

We can talk about Corktown and Woodbridge but at the end of the day the most mundane neighborhoods in Chicago or Boston are still much more expensive. And the suburbs have no reason to rejoice over this - the prices in Detroit suburbs are laughable - and I'd rather be set on fire than live in most of them.

Doesnt this just sum up this entire discussion right there? I know people who live in the city who feel this way about the suburbs and people in the suburbs who feel this way about living in the city - and who cares? You should live where you want to live and be happy - this debating/arguing/discussing of city versus suburb is pointless. If you desire an urban experience, live in the city. If your thing is more the suburbs, then off you go!

I live in Ferndale, and have for over 20 years now. That works just great for me. I'm close to events throughout the area, and I live in an area that I truly enjoy - I see no need to apologize for that to anyone, city or suburb.

[iheartthed]

"nothing in view in car"
I'd like to share a couple of true ancedotes if I may. A couple of years ago, after arriving @ my destination in winter time, I left my gloves and knit hat, [[these were very inexpensive, not mink or ostrich or ardvark or anything), when I came out, the passenger window was lying in the street, the hat and gloves gone. It cost me $175 to replace the window, I wouldn't DARE claim it on my insurance. A friend of mine had his rear car window broken out. What did they take? His Club! He had neglected to put on his steering wheel. This was @ the height of metal theft, and we figured someone probably sold it for scrap. Don't be discouraged, but be very vigilant.

Nearly the exact same thing happened to me in NYC except it was a cheap conference bag with a beach towel and a book in it. The window was far more costly to replace than what they stole from the car.

When I first got my driver's license my parents would tell me never to park on the street in Detroit [[or any city) and leave change in in plain view because "crack heads" would smash the window for it. The day my car was broken into I deliberately took all of the change out of my cup holder and put it into my pocket but it never occurred to me that someone might think anything of value was in that bag...

[aj3647]

Please define [[the) "Detroit experience"? What does this mean?

The typical life experience that the majority of the city's ~700,000 residents [[those who live in actual neighborhoods) have to deal with on a daily basis. I'm guessing that most Detroiters don't have a secure, gated lot with security cameras to park their cars in every night. I'm sure that most Detroiters don't have a security guard guarding the entrance to their home 24-hours a day.

And those things are fine, they're not bad or wrong, they're just ATYPICAL of what it is like to live in Detroit for most of the 700,000 people who live in Detroit and it's a false dichotomy to suggest that living in the same city brings with it the same exposure to society's ills.

[iheartthed]

The typical life experience that the majority of the city's ~700,000 residents [[those who live in actual neighborhoods) have to deal with on a daily basis. I'm guessing that most Detroiters don't have a secure, gated lot with security cameras to park their cars in every night. I'm sure that most Detroiters don't have a security guard guarding the entrance to their home 24-hours a day.

And those things are fine, they're not bad or wrong, they're just ATYPICAL of what it is like to live in Detroit for most of the 700,000 people who live in Detroit and it's a false dichotomy to suggest that living in the same city brings with it the same exposure to society's ills.

But is there a typical "Detroit" experience? Is someone who lives downtown in multi-story condo with gated parking any less legit than a person who lives in EEV? Is the typical experience of a Palmer Woods resident really that similar to a Brightmoor resident?

[Parkguy]

Sure, there are young people moving in to Detroit. But will they stay there when they marry and/or have children and have to decide where they will go to school.

That will be less and less of an issue. Right now, only about 25% of households have school-age children in the U.S., and I just read that the projection for two decades from now is that only 12% will have school age children.

[[I think that may be the real underlying issue with "school quality" right now. It is really a problem of funding schools in an era when 75% of the population really doesn't give a rip whether schools are funded or not. God, I hope I am wrong.)

[Islandman]

But is there a typical "Detroit" experience? Is someone who lives downtown in multi-story condo with gated parking any less legit than a person who lives in EEV? Is the typical experience of a Palmer Woods resident really that similar to a Brightmoor resident?

I think aj's point is that there is a BIG difference between moving to 6 and Southfield [[hell, pick almost any intersection) and moving in the Broderick [[pick any other midtown/downtown development).

No one is saying that the location invalidates one's "credibility", but the experience and daily life will be completely different.

As Corktownyuppie has stated, he has not experienced a lot of the negative experiences the majority of Detroit residents have to deal with and be vigilant of as part of daily life.

[corktownyuppie]

...it's a false dichotomy to suggest that living in the same city brings with it the same exposure to society's ills.

The people who are looking to move downtown aren't doing so out of interest curing society's ills. In fact, I'd guess that most people living in those areas where social problems prevail are trying to get out. [[Wasn't there an article claiming that 50% of Detroiters trying to leave the city over the next 5 years?)

What I believe is problematic is that these social ills aren't just present in the city, they're now ingrained in the culture -- even in the identity -- of the people who live there. The goal isn't to bring outsiders into a system so that they can understand the social problems in the city. The goal, if we are looking at this from a holistic perspective -- is to bring outsiders into a system that can create the resources necessary to treat and diminish those social problems.

I don't know how it can happen, but I would like our social problems to be "something we have" not "something who we are".

[gthomas]

I lived in several neighborhood's in Detroit and never really felt in danger or been threaten in no such. I lived east, west, downtown, lafayette park, and now in Midtown. What I hear on the news I've never experienced and hope not to, actually the only time where I was robbed and felt threaten was in the suburbs a few years back. So should I "stereotype" the suburbs, crime is everywhere..so what's the point here. You are either racist or just want to base your thoughts off of myths, you probably never lived here.

[Islandman]

Who is this directed to?

Oh, and please peruse this: http://theoatmeal.com/comics/apostrophe

[gthomas]

This is directed to all who thinks there is a "typical Detroit experience" MYTH. Which is some cases, BAD is most eyes...if the shoe fits, wear it.

[Jason]

The thing is, people moving to Detroit are moving to specific neighborhoods that they find attractive. They're not moving to "Detroit" in general.

Just because good neighborhoods and bad neighborhoods exist in the same municipality it doesn't make either experience fake or real.

[gthomas]

The thing is, people moving to Detroit are moving to specific neighborhoods that they find attractive. They're not moving to "Detroit" in general.

Just because good neighborhoods and bad neighborhoods exist in the same municipality it doesn't make either experience fake or real.

Great point, well said!

[Flintoid]

The thing is, people moving to Detroit are moving to specific neighborhoods that they find attractive. They're not moving to "Detroit" in general.

Just because good neighborhoods and bad neighborhoods exist in the same municipality it doesn't make either experience fake or real.

YES! Thank you Jason! I'm so tired of people saying that if you move to Downtown or Corktown or West Village that you "aren't really living in Detroit." Guess what, those neighborhoods are Detroit. As is the East Side. As is Palmer Woods. As is Brightmoor. Cities are diverse across races, income, crime levels, etc. The sooner people realize this the sooner we can start appreciating the city more.

[Bham1982]

YES! Thank you Jason! I'm so tired of people saying that if you move to Downtown or Corktown or West Village that you "aren't really living in Detroit."

Of course those neighborhoods are all Detroit, but the point is that they are extreme outliers.

There's a few streets of hillbilly shacks in Bloomfield Township [[hard by the Pontiac border), but if you moved there, some folks wouldn't think you live in the real Bloomfield.

Similarly, if I moved to Detroit, but lived in some highrise building downtown, you're experiencing something remotely typical of maybe .5% of Detroiters.

[marshamusic]

YES! Thank you Jason! I'm so tired of people saying that if you move to Downtown or Corktown or West Village that you "aren't really living in Detroit." Guess what, those neighborhoods are Detroit. As is the East Side. As is Palmer Woods. As is Brightmoor. Cities are diverse across races, income, crime levels, etc. The sooner people realize this the sooner we can start appreciating the city more.

This is often said about beautiful Lafayette Park where I live; that it's "not Detroit" - but on the contrary, as I've written in other places, it is quintessentially Detroit, in many ways.

[gthomas]

People need to realize the fact that Detroit has great neighborhoods, some are horrible. But, we do have some of the best assets, good housing stock and one-of-kind architecture in this region, in some cases the world. They hate the fact that it's in Detroit, period. There's plenty of nice things in Detroit no suburbs can stand up to, I appreciate it all, flaws and all. Why is it so hard to believe that we a new coffee shop on 7-mile or a grocery store in a 96% occupancy rate neighborhood, they're still good people here who will do whatever it takes to maintain neighborhoods. What we need is for more leaders to make a physical change..starting with self.

I try to introduce the city in so many good ways, I convinced about six people from three major cities to move and invest here. Despite the bad news local and national media put out there about Detroit, all my friends that recently moved here says it's been great so far. They say the only thing missing is reliable transit... all of us live in great neighborhoods in Detroit.

[313WX]

You know, as much as we all are interested in Detroit's developments, the downtown-only boosters lately have really been coming across as condescending to those [[I.E. residents outside of downtown) who have different experiences with Detroit.

That does nothing to help us all grow as one either.

[corktownyuppie]

You know, as much as we all are interested in Detroit's developments, the downtown-only boosters lately have really been coming across as condescending to those [[I.E. residents outside of downtown) who have different experiences with Detroit.

That does nothing to help us all grow as one either.

How do we solve this? The reality is that what attracted me back to the city was precisely because it was not in the condition that East English Village had become. This isn't a slap in the face to EEVers, and I dream of one day buying property there and making it nice like it was 25 years ago.

I'm not trying to be condescending, and I don't believe that most people are. Considering how much people are frustrated with their quality of life in their neighborhoods, you can't possibly expect people with a much higher standard of living to take an interest in living there.

That's not condescending on purpose, though it may be de facto. It's not racial, either. My neighborhood was probably 60-70% black when I grew up on Detroit's east side, and we were happy there. The only neighbor that caused problems was the guy behind me who had two dobermans and then destroyed the house upon hearing that he was getting evicted...and he was white. I promise you that if it weren't for the increase in violent crime and petty theft, my parents would never have moved out.

So I humbly ask, how can I get excited about a $5000/mo penthouse at Broderick Tower in a way that doesn't sound condescending to someone living in Warrendale or Del Ray... how do I get excited about Whole Foods opening up without sounding condescending to University Foods?

How do we attract investors -- and the investment they bring with them -- when their mere presence and way of life is, well, somewhat condescending.

The answer is, I don't know how.

[JVB]

How do we attract investors -- and the investment they bring with them -- when their mere presence and way of life is, well, somewhat condescending.

The answer is, I don't know how.

That's every city isn't it?

[corktownyuppie]

That's every city isn't it?

Yes. It's just that in Detroit's case, we are atrociously bad -- almost in a remarkable way -- of letting rich investors know that they aren't welcome.

-- $200 million...million...that Detroit turned down for the school system
-- $6 million per year in saved operating costs letting Michigan run Belle Isle
-- $160 million to invest in the Detroit lighting system, opposed by Detroit reps
-- $221 million...upgrades at Cobo Hall, but only after it was "hijacked" by the suburbs.

In most cities, people make fun of the rich. People even dislike the rich. Here we tell them to GTFO and get mad at them for not leaving their money behind before they leave.