Young People Moving into the Downtown Area from the Suburbs: Reviews, Please.

[Hermod]

It's quite simple. You need two variables for a crime to happen...

1. A victim
2. A perpetrator.

FIFY [[fixed it for you)

[Eber Brock Ward]

A few things to add:

1. Background. My wife and I moved to Woodbridge from Chicago about six months ago. She's a Texan, and I grew up near A2 and in Warrendale [[the whole split parents thing) and spent my post HS time in A2 [[college), on Army bases, in NY, and in Chicago,

2. Facts. There are occasional breakins in our neighborhood, sometimes people get jacked at the Marathon at GR and Avery, every couple months we'll hear shots from west of Rosa and southwest of GR, they just got some folks with a stolen car at Commonwealth and Alexandrine like last Tuesday, and theres a rabblerouser named Darius on the northside of the neighborhood that is the cause of much of the crime around here and allegedly torched that house up at like Avery and Merrick a couple of months ago.

And that's it. I haven't seen, heard, or heard of anything more in my time here.

3. Observations. That's pretty damn good. In my ten years in Chicago, I lived in River North/Gold Coast a number of them, but neighborhood-wise I lived in East Lakeview, Ukranian Village, and on the Wicker Park/Bucktown border. Woodbridge is most like UV in that it's really nice and relatively safe in and of itself, but you dont want to walk west of Rosa or southwest of GR if you dont have to [[walking east to Midtown bars/restaurants is fine during summer when it's light, IMO), just as in UV you had to be careful if you went west of Damen [[2000 west) or Augusta [[1000 north). While there, on my block [[Cortez east of Ashland for you google maps folks), we had a trap house down the way toward Milwaukee, heard of folks getting harassed/mugged on Ashland, heard shots every week or two, etc. These are, IMO, just as in Woodbridge, the costs of living in a neighborhood in that certain stage of the gentrification process.

My ultimate point being: Don't sugarcoat things. Shit happens in cities and these folks should be fine so long as they don't get wrapped up in underhanded bullshit or walk around alone at 2:00 am like a target. Move to the areas a recent UM grad is likely looking and, if they stay street smart, they'll likely be unaffected by random crimes against them [[rather than petty property crimes) for the duration of their stay.

[Zacha341]

Personal property theft is a big one in Detroit. Be vigilant, do walk-arounds of your property to make sure no one has entry, or 'attempts' of entry; use double-locks, nothing in view in car, timers on lights, wheel locks, car alarm that disables engine etc... and for certain don't live in isolation. Get to know your neighbors!

[Eber Brock Ward]

On the school note, we are planning on kids in the next year or two. We are city birds at heart and looked at a lot of cities before settling here. Detroit is the best value we found. Given that there is no other "city" in SE Michigan [[world-class cultural institutions, pro sports and show venues easily/cheaply accessed by transit/bike/cab, etc.) our points of comparison were all out of state and across the nation.

We have, inclusive of mortgage/tax/insurance, plus utilities on a larger house and the increased cost of having to get a second car and insure it [[basically all of our "living expenses"), about $1500 less in expenses per month than we had in Chicago.

We consider both Most Holy Trinity [[Corktown) and Waldorf [[Indian Village) to be fine schools. The former is about $350/mo for the first kid and $300 for the the second and thereafter. If we have 2 kids we come out well ahead. Waldorf is like $1000/mo for the first kid and $900/mo thereafter. There, we'd be about $400/mo down from our Chicago baseline and have our kids in an outstanding school. Not to mention that our Chicago baseline would grow as we had kids, because like any large city, the public schools [[save for a few magnets) are a bad proposition.

So I dont buy the "no schools" argument in Detroit because paying for private schools for your kids is just part of the cost of doing business and living in the city if you have kids in any of the major cities I've lived in [[Chicago, NY, Det). If you can't build that into your budget model, move to the suburbs when you have kids, which I've known many folks to do in all of those cities.

But lets not get facts mixed up on the school issue. At least in some cases, and for sure ours, Detroit is so cheap that you can rock a DINK-style cash flow *AND* put your kids in great schools, all without a huge hit to lifestyle if you like easy access to museums, bars/restaurants, and shows/games and that sort of stuff. Frankly, you just can't do that in most other cities without making a lot of money.

[Zacha341]

^^^ Sounds like a good plan to me. Pay off any car notes [[or purchase cash cars only) and that will help offset the high 'car insurance' rates you pay to live in Detroit!

[corktownyuppie]

On the school note, we are planning on kids in the next year or two. We are city birds at heart and looked at a lot of cities before settling here. Detroit is the best value we found. Given that there is no other "city" in SE Michigan [[world-class cultural institutions, pro sports and show venues easily/cheaply accessed by transit/bike/cab, etc.) our points of comparison were all out of state and across the nation.

We have, inclusive of mortgage/tax/insurance, plus utilities on a larger house and the increased cost of having to get a second car and insure it [[basically all of our "living expenses"), about $1500 less in expenses per month than we had in Chicago.

We consider both Most Holy Trinity [[Corktown) and Waldorf [[Indian Village) to be fine schools. The former is about $350/mo for the first kid and $300 for the the second and thereafter. If we have 2 kids we come out well ahead. Waldorf is like $1000/mo for the first kid and $900/mo thereafter. There, we'd be about $400/mo down from our Chicago baseline and have our kids in an outstanding school. Not to mention that our Chicago baseline would grow as we had kids, because like any large city, the public schools [[save for a few magnets) are a bad proposition.

So I dont buy the "no schools" argument in Detroit because paying for private schools for your kids is just part of the cost of doing business and living in the city if you have kids in any of the major cities I've lived in [[Chicago, NY, Det). If you can't build that into your budget model, move to the suburbs when you have kids, which I've known many folks to do in all of those cities.

But lets not get facts mixed up on the school issue. At least in some cases, and for sure ours, Detroit is so cheap that you can rock a DINK-style cash flow *AND* put your kids in great schools, all without a huge hit to lifestyle if you like easy access to museums, bars/restaurants, and shows/games and that sort of stuff. Frankly, you just can't do that in most other cities without making a lot of money.

I feel you on the private schools. I went to private/parochial schools my whole life and -- if I have boys when I start raising a family -- was planning on sending them to U-D Jesuit, anyway. So if I'm going to pay $10,000 per year to send them to school anyway, the quality of the local public school system is a less urgent need for me.

You're right about the DINK cashflow...when $100,000 gets you a nice starter home and $250,000 gets you a mansion, you can build in lots of budget to pay for good schools.

[DetroitPlanner]

We consider both Most Holy Trinity [[Corktown) and Waldorf [[Indian Village) to be fine schools. The former is about $350/mo for the first kid and $300 for the the second and thereafter. If we have 2 kids we come out well ahead. Waldorf is like $1000/mo for the first kid and $900/mo thereafter. There, we'd be about $400/mo down from our Chicago baseline and have our kids in an outstanding school. Not to mention that our Chicago baseline would grow as we had kids, because like any large city, the public schools [[save for a few magnets) are a bad proposition.

So I dont buy the "no schools" argument in Detroit because paying for private schools for your kids is just part of the cost of doing business and living in the city if you have kids in any of the major cities I've lived in [[Chicago, NY, Det). If you can't build that into your budget model, move to the suburbs when you have kids, which I've known many folks to do in all of those cities.

What if you lived in Warrendale again? There is no Sts Peter and Paul, no St. Christopher, no St. Thomas Aquinas to send your kids to. My mom went to St. Leo's which is in Woodbridge, but it too was shut down decades ago. You may have some choices that are not available to others due to your mobility and discretionary income.

Those who live in Woodbridge are privileged whether you think so or not. Most of the City is more like Warrendale, with folks struggling to get by and with fewer options that mobility and income bring.

[313WX]

Highland Park is not very big and has an outrageous crime rate. 1 murder in Highland Park would give it a much higher homicide rate than 1 murder in Detroit. Harper Woods crime rate is almost as high as Detroit and it's pretty small.

The difference is Highland Park and Harper Woods have pretty high population densities for communities their size [[and in Harper Woods case, people with higher incomes).

[aj3647]

Yes, a lot of these mid-20's white college grads who move downtown are isolating themselves from Detroit's ills. How many of them live in multi-story condo buildings downtown, with security guards at the entrance and gated or underground parking protected by cameras and floodlights? I don't see how anyone can claim living in a little fortress such as that is the typical living situation for your average Detroiter who has to deal with the bad stuff on a daily basis.

It's the urban equivalent of living in a gated suburb community. And hey, there's nothing inherently wrong with living in those places and wanting to be safe, but these young urban professionals shouldn't delude themselves into thinking that they are living the same "Detroit experience" as everyone else. You're living in the Green Zone, whereas the vast majority of Detroiters live in the Red Zone.

[Eber Brock Ward]

What if you lived in Warrendale again? There is no Sts Peter and Paul, no St. Christopher, no St. Thomas Aquinas to send your kids to. My mom went to St. Leo's which is in Woodbridge, but it too was shut down decades ago. You may have some choices that are not available to others due to your mobility and discretionary income.

Those who live in Woodbridge are privileged whether you think so or not. Most of the City is more like Warrendale, with folks struggling to get by and with fewer options that mobility and income bring.

Agreed. But this thread is in the context providing advice to people graduating from UM, not your typical Warrendale resident.

Many outlying neighborhood residents, like those in your Warrendale example, have done just what I said and uprooted for the suburbs, which I think is the rational move. Again, though, this particular thread isnt tailored for that particular crowd.

[[Useless personal facts re Warrendale. I spent my formative years on the 6400 block of Brace, spent my "dad time" there as I grew up, and went to mass at SSP&P until my grandma got too old to go. I "get" Warrendale more than most neighborhoods.)

[Eber Brock Ward]

Yes, a lot of these mid-20's white college grads who move downtown are isolating themselves from Detroit's ills. How many of them live in multi-story condo buildings downtown, with security guards at the entrance and gated or underground parking protected by cameras and floodlights? I don't see how anyone can claim living in a little fortress such as that is the typical living situation for your average Detroiter who has to deal with the bad stuff on a daily basis.

It's the urban equivalent of living in a gated suburb community. And hey, there's nothing inherently wrong with living in those places and wanting to be safe, but these young urban professionals shouldn't delude themselves into thinking that they are living the same "Detroit experience" as everyone else. You're living in the Green Zone, whereas the vast majority of Detroiters live in the Red Zone.

How is that different than any other city?

Fact is the city *needs* those folks to, eventually, move in and subsidize services for the rest of the city, provided we reach a point where subsidies arent required down there.

Do you think most Northsiders often venture south of Roosevelt in Chicago other than a few spots [[ballgames, museums, hyde park, etc.)? Do you think most people in NY often head out to the outer boroughs?

Nope. And you'd expect it to eventually be much the same here.

[DetroitPlanner]

[[Useless personal facts re Warrendale. I spent my formative years on the 6400 block of Brace, spent my "dad time" there as I grew up, and went to mass at SSP&P until my grandma got too old to go. I "get" Warrendale more than most neighborhoods.)

A Jet.... should have known... lmao. I am a Golden Hawk!

[p69rrh51]

The difference is Highland Park and Harper Woods have pretty high population densities for communities their size [[and in Harper Woods case, people with higher incomes).

Harper Woods crime rate is much lower if Eastland is removed from the equation.

[Zacha341]

A mall I don't even consider shopping at now...

Harper Woods crime rate is much lower if Eastland is removed from the equation.

[313WX]

Harper Woods crime rate is much lower if Eastland is removed from the equation.

That's true as well.

One can probably argue the same for Northland and Southfield.

[DetBill]

A few things to add:

1. Background. My wife and I moved to Woodbridge from Chicago about six months ago. She's a Texan, and I grew up near A2 and in Warrendale [[the whole split parents thing) and spent my post HS time in A2 [[college), on Army bases, in NY, and in Chicago,

2. Facts. There are occasional breakins in our neighborhood, sometimes people get jacked at the Marathon at GR and Avery, every couple months we'll hear shots from west of Rosa and southwest of GR, they just got some folks with a stolen car at Commonwealth and Alexandrine like last Tuesday, and theres a rabblerouser named Darius on the northside of the neighborhood that is the cause of much of the crime around here and allegedly torched that house up at like Avery and Merrick a couple of months ago.

And that's it. I haven't seen, heard, or heard of anything more in my time here.

3. Observations. That's pretty damn good. In my ten years in Chicago, I lived in River North/Gold Coast a number of them, but neighborhood-wise I lived in East Lakeview, Ukranian Village, and on the Wicker Park/Bucktown border. Woodbridge is most like UV in that it's really nice and relatively safe in and of itself, but you dont want to walk west of Rosa or southwest of GR if you dont have to [[walking east to Midtown bars/restaurants is fine during summer when it's light, IMO), just as in UV you had to be careful if you went west of Damen [[2000 west) or Augusta [[1000 north). While there, on my block [[Cortez east of Ashland for you google maps folks), we had a trap house down the way toward Milwaukee, heard of folks getting harassed/mugged on Ashland, heard shots every week or two, etc. These are, IMO, just as in Woodbridge, the costs of living in a neighborhood in that certain stage of the gentrification process.

My ultimate point being: Don't sugarcoat things. Shit happens in cities and these folks should be fine so long as they don't get wrapped up in underhanded bullshit or walk around alone at 2:00 am like a target. Move to the areas a recent UM grad is likely looking and, if they stay street smart, they'll likely be unaffected by random crimes against them [[rather than petty property crimes) for the duration of their stay.

Couldnt agree more, have lived downtown in the Lafayette Park neighborhood for the better part since 1989.. I have never as yet experienced a break in, auto theft or damage, personal assault or anything we equate with crime. I made sure I purchased a place where I and my car were safe. .I walk and or run almost daily in the downtown area as well as mostly walk to many social evenings and sporting events. I dont try to be stupid about things when Im out and do look over my shoulder and dont venture in areas which might seem unsafe, but there is a ton of areas that are fine all over so I dont feel restricted at all. Ofcourse there is crime,, this a older urban city,, unfortunately we also have it today in what were safe country hamlets so one must be realistic about crime in regards to where you choose to live. Food purchases are great now, and soft/dry goods and take outs easy..I get so tired over the years of people always telling us here there is no safe place to exist,, when they dont even live close to our area. Maybe Im just extraordinarily lucky but living here is for the most part fun, reasonable and convenient. Sorry to blow some misconceptions.

[Bham1982]

Do you think most people in NY often head out to the outer boroughs?

I would definitely disagree on this.

Because average market-rate rents are so much higher in NYC, most newcomers these days don't move to Manhattan. I think most are in Brooklyn, with significant numbers in Queens, Bronx, Jersey City/Hoboken.

Unless they're investment bankers or independently wealthy, I would guess that the "average" UofM grad headed to NYC is living somewhere like Williamsburg or Park Slope, both in Brooklyn.

They aren't living in, say, the Upper West Side, or the Village, in Manhattan. Those areas are for wealthy, more established folks, international types, and the like.

But nowadays, Brooklyn is generally considered cooler than Manhattan, so it isn't really settling. It's just different.

[AGinthe313]

It's the urban equivalent of living in a gated suburb community. And hey, there's nothing inherently wrong with living in those places and wanting to be safe, but these young urban professionals shouldn't delude themselves into thinking that they are living the same "Detroit experience" as everyone else. You're living in the Green Zone, whereas the vast majority of Detroiters live in the Red Zone.

Please define [[the) "Detroit experience"? What does this mean?

[Bham1982]

Please define [[the) "Detroit experience"? What does this mean?

I think he means that the Downtown experience, as described, is one where you're basically isolated from the rest of the city.

I don't think it's necessarily true, as you can live downtown and immerse yourself in the city, but if you're living somewhere like Riverfront Towers, Millender Center, Harbortown, or even Lafayette Park, yeah, I don't see how it's dramatically different than living in some suburb.

[softailrider]

Para 1: Pretty arrogant and ignorant thing to say. Some neighborhoods this is true, but this is written as all. All it not true.

Para 2: If the increase in population is joined with more police or the closing off of large parts of the City [[places like Brighmoor) then you could mitigate the crime with more police present. Should there be more market rate housing downtown, then the City could afford more police. Unfortunately nearly all of the development downtown has come from large tax abatements [[sans casinos) which do not pay the amount of taxes needed to service the developments.

People won't move back in [[in appreciable numbers) until public safety and schools are better. Without this young people will be nomads, moving to the burbs once married because they don't want folks breaking in, or to send thier kids to horrible schools.

Your last paragraph says a lot. The way the situation is now, anybody who moves into any area of the city who has kids better be able to afford to send them to private schools.

[MidTownMs]

When I completed grad school at Univ. of Mich. in 1998 recruiters from all over the country were in Ann Arbor talking to graduates and offering big bucks which included relocation costs. But instead of moving away I decided to move to Detroit and try to make some type of impact on the community I left when I moved to Ann Arbor six years prior. After almost 15 years of giving back to my community I decided that the quality of life became more important than my loyalty to Detroit. As far as employment, housing, financial security, I had all that. And for a while that was great. But the day to day struggles one goes through just to live in Detroit became overwhelming. I can't say that Detroit is the best place for young college graduates. Perhaps it is for some but for me having a great job and a great place to live did not make up for the rest of the things that came with living in Detroit.

[Honky Tonk]

Personal property theft is a big one in Detroit. Be vigilant, do walk-arounds of your property to make sure no one has entry, or 'attempts' of entry; use double-locks, nothing in view in car, timers on lights, wheel locks, car alarm that disables engine etc... and for certain don't live in isolation. Get to know your neighbors!

"nothing in view in car"
I'd like to share a couple of true ancedotes if I may. A couple of years ago, after arriving @ my destination in winter time, I left my gloves and knit hat, [[these were very inexpensive, not mink or ostrich or ardvark or anything), when I came out, the passenger window was lying in the street, the hat and gloves gone. It cost me $175 to replace the window, I wouldn't DARE claim it on my insurance. A friend of mine had his rear car window broken out. What did they take? His Club! He had neglected to put on his steering wheel. This was @ the height of metal theft, and we figured someone probably sold it for scrap. Don't be discouraged, but be very vigilant.

[Zacha341]

Dangy! And I was just about to purchase me some ardvark gloves and lay them on de' passenger seat. SO MUCH FOR THAT! ------ You just have to laugh sometimes to keep sane. The justification for stealing is as bad as the act... the thief rationalizes that you left it out for them to purchase - you pay the tab!

I had a robber crawl out of my car [[which I stupidly left unlocked) as I was approaching it downtown decades ago. I yelled and asked him put my cassette tapes etc. back. He calmly complied and ran off, though some of the stuff he'd stuffed into his pockets. I would not do that now for fear of being 'SHOT' FOR ASKING!

"nothing in view in car"
I'd like to share a couple of true ancedotes if I may. A couple of years ago, after arriving @ my destination in winter time, I left my gloves and knit hat, [[these were very inexpensive, not mink or ostrich or ardvark or anything), when I came out, the passenger window was lying in the street, the hat and gloves gone.

[rencense]

I moved to west village a few months ago and absolutely love living here. Beautiful neighborhood, good neighbors, close to downtown/belle isle/etc and we're starting to see some new businesses come in not to mention the beergarden in october. I have an awesome apartment thats enormous and the rent is absurdly cheap. Granted its not a really high end place with granite counters etc but nice nonetheless.

I can hop on one of two buses within a block of my house and be downtown in 15 minutes or its about 20-25 minutes by bike. The closest I've come to being a victim here is having the seat stolen off of my bike while it was chained up outside. Anyway as always your mileage may vary but i love it here and have no plans to leave. I looked at corktown and a few other spots and found myself priced out of many of them; but at the end of the day I'd say thats a pretty good problem to have.

[poobert]

Make no mistake: Detroit is a dangerous place. For most people - especially young people with few other familial ties to the city - it mostly translates into the need for "street smarts." That is, looking over your shoulder, being on your guard, locking everything. It affects the quality of life, to be sure. It wears on you, having to be wary virtually all the time. Still, you don't feel as if you are in imminent danger. In fact I write this on a particularly cold, quiet evening in Detroit, in a single family home no less, far from any apartment-bunkers, and all is quiet on the eastern front.

Therein lies the difference. The Frank Rizzos - mostly 'boomers - often feel that simply crossing the city limits is like stepping into a minefield - That an apartment is automatically a slum, that minorities are criminals, that the highest status symbol one can attain is not fame, wisdom, fortune, glory, women, or power, but a poorly constructed suburban dwelling. This has all changed. The American capacity for change is astounding, witness the last decade, even.

I don't live downtown, and in fact I never did. I lived in greater downtown and now in one of Detroit's better neighborhoods [[EEV). I have liked them all in their particular ways. As I have said before, though, Detroit is fucked beyond belief. Part of it is math. There isn't the population/taxes to deliver the services needed over the landmass. The other part is leadership. No one here is willing or able to bring this city into the last quarter of the 20th century, let alone the 21st.

Young people will move to Detroit but I think the greater issue is that young people will move on. Detroit is the stepping stone to real, functioning cities for too many people. We have made clear our institutional opposition to change here.

We can talk about Corktown and Woodbridge but at the end of the day the most mundane neighborhoods in Chicago or Boston are still much more expensive. And the suburbs have no reason to rejoice over this - the prices in Detroit suburbs are laughable - and I'd rather be set on fire than live in most of them.