Affirmative Action Ban Voted Unconstitutional

[gazhekwe]

You keep ignoring the salient point that white privilege extends to those of lower socioeconomic status. Whites get preferred treatment over blacks at all levels. That is what affirmative action addresses. Testing methods have been changing over time, but as Noise's example clearly illustrates, the tests have always favored whites, as the designers are from white middle income group, so they design to test their own cultural literacy.

And I have been explaining throughout this thread how affirmative action actually works, not as a quota system absent any consideration of merits. The assumption on the part of whites usually is that the minorities needed help to meet the qualifications. NO. They need help to step up to the policies and selection methods that have traditionally favored whites.

[JVB]

You keep ignoring the salient point that white privilege extends to those of lower socioeconomic status.

You keep saying that, but you fail to explain to me how so many white people are so poor if they have "white privilege". I'm still waiting to hear some examples of how poor [[particularly rural) whites are benefiting from this magical "white privilege" you keep talking about. The poorest county in Michigan is Isabella County which is over 90% white. Where is their white privilege?

And I have been explaining throughout this thread how affirmative action actually works, not as a quota system absent any consideration of merits. The assumption on the part of whites usually is that the minorities needed help to meet the qualifications. NO. They need help to step up to the policies and selection methods that have traditionally favored whites.

I've already posted exactly how it works in the 2 Supreme Court cases in which both times it was found that the white victims were discriminated against due to skin color. If you add 20 points to a persons test score because they're black, or throw out all the tests for a promotion just because no blacks scored high enough then that's racial discrimination.

[gazhekwe]

As I said, which you keep ignoring, whites applying for loans receive better terms than blacks applying for loans. Tests for jobs, for school admission and more are designed by whites to a white cultural literacy standard. This makes it difficult for minorities to compete on an equal basis. In real estate to this day, steering takes place. People have been steered away from Southfield, for example, because of the perception that the schools are inferior [[majority black). This makes it difficult for integration which could eventually even things out. People who learn together teach each other as well.

[jiminnm]

Keep your eye on Fisher v. Texas, currently under consideration by the US Supremes, which deals with the use of race in admission to the Univ of Texas. I expect that Gutter v. Bollinger is going to be weakened [[unsure of how much or the impact on Michigan's law). Some commentators, however, have speculated that the Court may go so far as to determine that the Constitution should be colorblind and that any use of race in admissions is not permissible.

This discusses some of the arguments:
http://www.scotusblog.com/?p=153659

[JVB]

As I said, which you keep ignoring, whites applying for loans receive better terms than blacks applying for loans.

That is highly illegal, can you provide some evidence of companies doing that? I don't doubt that there have been isolated cases, but if this is an ongoing practice they will be sued out of existence.

Tests for jobs, for school admission and more are designed by whites to a white cultural literacy standard. This makes it difficult for minorities to compete on an equal basis.

Are you saying there are no minorities working on the design of tests? Can you provide some evidence of that? Is this all tests, or just certain tests?

In real estate to this day, steering takes place.

Can you provide some evidence of that? Again, we could have some serious lawsuits on our hands of this is actually happening, not to mention you would be doing us all a favor by outing the disreputable agents so their company can fire them.

People have been steered away from Southfield, for example, because of the perception that the schools are inferior [[majority black). This makes it difficult for integration which could eventually even things out. People who learn together teach each other as well.

Southfield schools do suck, at least Southfield High School does [[3/10 on the GreatSchools.org website). But your assumption that it has something to do with "majority black" is again another example of you seeing racial boogeymen. You know another school that sucks - Roseville High School [[3/10) which is majority white. How do I know? Because when we were looking for a house we told the agent that good schools were very important to us and so he took Roseville right off the list. How racist of him to steer us away from a majority white school system huh?

So you see, just because you jump to a racial conclusion for every little thing doesn't mean there is anything racial about it.

[Kevgoblue]

Speaking of U of M and Gratz vs Bollinger, why the laser focus on points for an underrepresented minority? Other criteria can earn a prospective student additional points towards admission.

*Graduating from a "strong" school. 10 points
*Graduating from a school with a "strong" curriculum. 8 points
*Any applicant from a socio-disadvantaged group. 8 points
*Provost discretion. 20 points
*Athletic scholarship. 20 points
*Coming from an underrepresented Mich county. 6 points
*Legacy. 4 points

These are all things which can create oportunity for students, outside of merit. They also tend to disproportionately benefit white students. Never have I heard any of these criteria called into question [[white privilige?).

Not to mention the fact that hundreds of white applicants with lesser GPA's were admitted. But it's only the minority students who were accepted that created some type of damage against Ms. Gratz

[oladub]

These are all things which can create oportunity for students, outside of merit. They also tend to disproportionately benefit white students. Never have I heard any of these criteria called into question [[white privilige?).

If a poor white or working class white came from "an underrepresented Michigan county" they might get 6 points. Otherwise, what points would poor or white working class students likely qualify for off of that list because of "white privilege"? No one is taking anything away from rich whites. Your list gives them up to 18 extra points for attending a strong school with a strong curriculum if they weren't also legacy students; almost as much as the 20 points for being black. Guess which group gets squeezed out of the U of M application process for having an 18-20 point handicap.

[noise]

Noise, that is what I have been doing throughout this thread.

Yes, my comment was poorly directed. It was in the context of those who are "against" some strange and distorted view of Affirmative Action policies. My apologies.

[noise]

You keep saying that, but you fail to explain to me how so many white people are so poor if they have "white privilege". I'm still waiting to hear some examples of how poor [[particularly rural) whites are benefiting from this magical "white privilege" you keep talking about. The poorest county in Michigan is Isabella County which is over 90% white. Where is their white privilege?



I've already posted exactly how it works in the 2 Supreme Court cases in which both times it was found that the white victims were discriminated against due to skin color. If you add 20 points to a persons test score because they're black, or throw out all the tests for a promotion just because no blacks scored high enough then that's racial discrimination.

Have you read anything about being black in America? There is an endless supply of material out there to quench your thirst for knowledge, if you're truly interested in learning.

[noise]

Denying white privilege exists in a white-dominated country is denying that any sort of racism exists.

[noise]

On a 150 point scale, 100 points would guarantee admission. For getting a perfect SAT score [[something that is merit based and doesn't consider something you have no control over such as your race)

Woah, woah, woah! Unbelievably naive! Do you research anything you type? May I introduce you to Google Scholar? Racial bias in standardized testing has been studied and reported on at length.

I'm not "ignoring" your posts. I don't care to read every word you type. I'm not going to change your racist mind and I'm not interested in doing so. The only person here I actually ignore [[on my ignore list) is oladub. Don't take it personally and don't feel bad if you don't respond to my posts. I assure you, I won't take it personally.

[JVB]

I'm not going to change your racist mind and I'm not interested in doing so.

Excuse me? How fucking dare you call me a racist when you know nothing about me. The fact that I don't support racial discrimination doesn't make me racist [[quite the opposite actually). You can disagree with me and give your justifications, or ignore all of my points as you have chosen to do - but don't call me a racist.

Denying white privilege exists in a white-dominated country is denying that any sort of racism exists.

No, I think you are not understanding the definitions of the words you are using. Racism is something that can exist in individuals or groups and manifest itself in various situations. White privilege is something that supposedly "all white people benefit from". Even the poor ones that can't feed their kids. That is a fiction. I'm done explaining it to you. I've given you numerous examples and hard stats, but you want to live in this make believe world where all white people are born to great families and have connections for good jobs and are smart and can pass all the culturally relevant tests to get into great schools.

The problem is obvious. You are the prototypical white liberal born to a good family who now has this sense of white guilt because you had all of these benefits so now you want to ascribe these benefits to everyone else. Go spend some time in Isabella county working with the churches trying to feed all the poor white families and tell them all about their white privilege. No seriously - it might change your view on poverty in general.

The problem with people like you [[aside from your self-hatred) is that at root, you are a true racist. You do not believe blacks and other minorities are capable of succeeding without "our help". How fucking patronizing and condescending of you. What makes you think you are so much better than minorities that they somehow need your help just to make it in life?

I deal with people like you all the time, and I'm constantly having to deprogram my daughter [[who is biracial) from all the bullshit she hears from teachers and other racist liberals such as yourself about how her options are limited in this "white world", and that she'll need government help to succeed in life. As if she isn't perfectly capable of being anything she wants to be with hard work. People like you poison children's minds into thinking they're somehow less capable than whites and that ingrains itself into the psyche and becomes the greatest limitation to success. I know the result, because I've watched it manifest itself in my daughter through the years.

When you keep telling people that they aren't smart enough and that their lack of success isn't their fault, eventually they start to believe it. Oh wise white one, tell us again how you'll help the poor incapable black folks make it in this unfair system....what a fucking joke.

[gazhekwe]

JVB, there is none so blind as he who will not see. We don't expect you to get it. It is wonderful to have the opportunity to show those who are interested the actual history and intent behind affirmative action. Hopefully there are many who will see.

Noise and Kevgoblue, your postings are so cogent and factual, very helpful.

[JVB]

Noise and Kevgoblue, your postings are so cogent and factual, very helpful.

What you mean is, they are in total agreement with you. If any of you actually believed in your position though you would address the points I keep bringing up. By ignoring them you acknowledge the flaws in your thinking.

It's very simple, you support a racist system that infers blacks and other minorities do not work hard enough or aren't smart enough to be able to make it on their own and therefore need extra help. I happen to think racial discrimination is a poisonous thing and that it causes more harm than good and that anybody regardless of race or gender can do anything they want if they're willing to work hard enough.

Your patronizing attitudes towards minorities is offensive. I only hope one day you all will see people as equals, with equal abilities to succeed in life without needing help from condescending liberals with government handouts designed to keep people dependent.

[gazhekwe]

I have addressed each of your points and you have failed to understand what I have said. Kevgoblue and Noise have addressed the same points even better than I did. You failed to understand them also. We do not expect you to get it. You do not see how you and your ilk benefit from the privilege of being the same race as the founders of the country and your community. You do not see how minorities including newer immigrants and people of color are disadvantaged by not being a member of the cadre of people who are recognized as legitimate members of the community, ie whites. We are trying to overcome more than 500 years of racial bias that is unseen by many of its practitioners. I am happy to have a chance to teach about affirmative action which is just one way of taking steps forward.

[oladub]

Based on the U of M point system as presented in posts 127 and 131, admission points are credited to blacks and the already well off presumably whites. Squeezed out in a de facto manner are poor and working class whites and Asian-Americans. Some universities have, at least in the past, even placed limits on the number of Jewish students too. There is no way around it, affirmative racists and thieving politicians need to sacrifice someone to make their self-serving schemes work. It has always been this way. Indians, Irish crofters, kulaks, Jews, and others have had their property stolen and redistributed in the past by politicians seeking favor among their own constituents. Putting a smiley face on affirmative racism doesn’t change the sacrifice theme. Promoting affirmative racism is still despicable behavior.

If tests, such as SAT, ACT, IQ, or achievement tests promote "white privilege" then the schools that offer them and look at their results must also be racist. I assume that these testing companies do everything possible to weed out "white privilege". Why aren't the beneficiaries of the affirmative racism industry protesting the use of these tests if they promote "white privilege"? Another thing, how is it that Asian-Americans outscore whites on tests that promote "white privilege"?

There are ways to address affirmative action positively; something Gazhwkwe has addressed on other threads. Discriminating against poor and working class whites and Asian Americans is not one one of those ways.

Gazhekwe is out of character calling posters on this board who disagree with her "ilk" [[post # 140). Usually she is a nice and reasonable person.

[gazhekwe]

I can't wait to see if this makes your heads explode:

The New Jim Crow, Mass Incarceration in the Age of Colorblindness, by Michelle Alexander

http://www.democracynow.org/2010/3/1...exander_on_the

[noise]

Excuse me? How fucking dare you call me a racist when you know nothing about me. The fact that I don't support racial discrimination doesn't make me racist [[quite the opposite actually). You can disagree with me and give your justifications, or ignore all of my points as you have chosen to do - but don't call me a racist.



No, I think you are not understanding the definitions of the words you are using. Racism is something that can exist in individuals or groups and manifest itself in various situations. White privilege is something that supposedly "all white people benefit from". Even the poor ones that can't feed their kids. That is a fiction. I'm done explaining it to you. I've given you numerous examples and hard stats, but you want to live in this make believe world where all white people are born to great families and have connections for good jobs and are smart and can pass all the culturally relevant tests to get into great schools.

The problem is obvious. You are the prototypical white liberal born to a good family who now has this sense of white guilt because you had all of these benefits so now you want to ascribe these benefits to everyone else. Go spend some time in Isabella county working with the churches trying to feed all the poor white families and tell them all about their white privilege. No seriously - it might change your view on poverty in general.

The problem with people like you [[aside from your self-hatred) is that at root, you are a true racist. You do not believe blacks and other minorities are capable of succeeding without "our help". How fucking patronizing and condescending of you. What makes you think you are so much better than minorities that they somehow need your help just to make it in life?

I deal with people like you all the time, and I'm constantly having to deprogram my daughter [[who is biracial) from all the bullshit she hears from teachers and other racist liberals such as yourself about how her options are limited in this "white world", and that she'll need government help to succeed in life. As if she isn't perfectly capable of being anything she wants to be with hard work. People like you poison children's minds into thinking they're somehow less capable than whites and that ingrains itself into the psyche and becomes the greatest limitation to success. I know the result, because I've watched it manifest itself in my daughter through the years.

When you keep telling people that they aren't smart enough and that their lack of success isn't their fault, eventually they start to believe it. Oh wise white one, tell us again how you'll help the poor incapable black folks make it in this unfair system....what a fucking joke.

This post can be summed up by saying "I know you are, but what am I?"

I'll call you how I see you. You can do the same to me. While I appreciate your anecdotal experience or opinions, they're simply not based in reality.

[JVB]

This post can be summed up by saying "I know you are, but what am I?"

I'll call you how I see you. You can do the same to me. While I appreciate your anecdotal experience or opinions, they're simply not based in reality.

...and just keep on ignoring point after point. Maybe if I number them:

#1 - Why is Isabella County which is over 90% white the poorest county in Michigan? How are they benefiting from "white privilege" when they can barely feed themselves? Giving some general response like "whites just benefit from privilege whether you see it or not" doesn't cut it. I'm giving you concrete real life examples - I want to know how the poverty stricken white people of Isabella County are unable to feed themselves if they really have this "white privilege" you insist all white people benefit from? Speak to them specifically, don't regurgitate the same non-specific generalities you continue to use.

#2 - Why are white people underrepresented at University of Michigan, if they are benefiting from "white privilege" and culturally biased testing?

#3 - Why are minorities such as Asians and Jews outscoring whites on tests that were designed with "white privilege" in mind?

There are around 20 other points you've failed to address, but I don't want to overwhelm you so just address these last 3 points for now, if you could.

[gazhekwe]

2010 Census Data for Isabella County

3 Largest Isabella County Race / Ethnic Groups

• The Isabella County White population is 61,514 persons or 87.5%.
• The Isabella County Hispanic population is 2,197 persons or 3.1%.
• The Isabella County American Indian population is 2,161 persons or 3.1%.

Poverty rates in Michigan in 2010 by ethnicity:

Whites 23%
Blacks 34%
American Indian/Alaska Natives 24%
Asian 14%
Other, One race 26%
Other, Two or more races 27%
http://www.milhs.org/wp-content/uplo...ertyReport.pdf

I am still looking for the most recent Isabella County breakdown, but I am betting it will mirror the state figures, higher poverty rates among the minorities than the whites.

[Kevgoblue]

When you keep telling people that they aren't smart enough and that their lack of success isn't their fault, eventually they start to believe it. Oh wise white one, tell us again how you'll help the poor incapable black folks make it in this unfair system....what a fucking joke.

Wow. That sounds like Streeter et.al. v. Ford. Remember, that class action lawsuit against Ford Motor about a decade ago that claimed that the ABC evaluation system had a disparate impact on older white men. And as I recollect the conversations at that time, the impacted demographic [[older white men) seemed to universally view the lawsuit with credibility.
So according to what you're saying, it was bullshit. They all just needed to work harder. Right?

[JVB]

Wow. That sounds like Streeter et.al. v. Ford. Remember, that class action lawsuit against Ford Motor about a decade ago that claimed that the ABC evaluation system had a disparate impact on older white men. And as I recollect the conversations at that time, the impacted demographic [[older white men) seemed to universally view the lawsuit with credibility.
So according to what you're saying, it was bullshit. They all just needed to work harder. Right?

I don't know anything about that case, and I'm not a lawyer. I'm also not an older white man, so it wouldn't impact me. But your characterization of my position is wrong.

Maybe the problem is I know too many smart, successful minorities which makes it hard for me to believe they needed "special consideration" in order to do well in life. If you're smart and you work hard you will generally be successful in life regardless of race, but equal opportunity doesn't mean equal outcomes. My ex came to this country from Cote D'Ivoire in 2002 with $4,000 and she put herself through engineering school at Wayne State. She got her own apartment and worked 2 jobs, then got an MBA - all this with English being her 3rd language. Last time I talked to her she was working in South Dakota in the oil fields as an engineering consultant making over $200k/year. When you see shit like that it's hard to have sympathy for people that do more complaining than trying and that goes for blacks, whites, hispanics or anyone else.

[Kevgoblue]

So basically you're saying "I have an opinion". Its not based on fact, on data, or on any type of research study. Its just your opinion.
You also ignore when people supply you with data, links, etc. but stand steadfast behind your earlier stated opinion.


I guess there's not much more to talk about.

[JVB]

So basically you're saying "I have an opinion". Its not based on fact, on data, or on any type of research study. Its just your opinion.
You also ignore when people supply you with data, links, etc. but stand steadfast behind your earlier stated opinion.


I guess there's not much more to talk about.

Fair enough, all any of us have are opinions. But of all of the facts and data and questions I provided, they were mostly ignored, particularly on the matters of "white privilege". I've helped feed too many poor white families in rural churches to ever believe those people had some unfair advantage in life. If you've never experienced that, and only known white people from Birmingham and Royal Oak I guess I can see how that would be a hard concept to understand. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

[noise]

...and just keep on ignoring point after point. Maybe if I number them:

#1 - Why is Isabella County which is over 90% white the poorest county in Michigan? How are they benefiting from "white privilege" when they can barely feed themselves? Giving some general response like "whites just benefit from privilege whether you see it or not" doesn't cut it. I'm giving you concrete real life examples - I want to know how the poverty stricken white people of Isabella County are unable to feed themselves if they really have this "white privilege" you insist all white people benefit from? Speak to them specifically, don't regurgitate the same non-specific generalities you continue to use.

#2 - Why are white people underrepresented at University of Michigan, if they are benefiting from "white privilege" and culturally biased testing?

#3 - Why are minorities such as Asians and Jews outscoring whites on tests that were designed with "white privilege" in mind?

There are around 20 other points you've failed to address, but I don't want to overwhelm you so just address these last 3 points for now, if you could.

#1. Your first misunderstanding. White privilege does not necessarily have anything to do with whether or not you can feed yourself. In a white-dominated society, if two equally qualified Isabella county citizens, one white and one black, are up for the same job, will they always be viewed fairly? Will one look more "suspicious" than the other? Has one grown up with a history of racial oppression? I know that racism doesn't exist in your world [[ironic), so you may answer naively again. White privilege doesn't mean every single white person is better off than every single black person. That's absurd.

#2. Your second misunderstanding. White privilege certainly can't be summed up with the demographics of a single educational institution. The University of Michigan has established its own set of admissions requirements. They made a cognizant decision.

#3. Your third misunderstanding. What makes you think any of these tests were "designed" with white privilege in mind? The fact remains, racial bias exists in standardized testing.

These are absurd straw man "points".