Affirmative Action Ban Voted Unconstitutional

[JVB]

If you can find some white players that can play, I'd be all for it. You'd have to look real hard though

The smiley face doesn't change your meaning behind that post. Imagine if someone said you'd have to "look real hard" to find any black people competent enough to run a business, be a doctor, or do anything else traditionally dominated by whites. That wouldn't sound as funny would it? Double standards...?

Besides didn't Dirk Nowitski beat the Super team in Miami just last year for a title? Pretty sure he was MVP too

[coracle]

What about competent enough to run a City that is 84% black with financial success? To be fair that maybe beyond the achievement of any color. At least "You'd have to look real hard though."

[Cincinnati_Kid]

The smiley face doesn't change your meaning behind that post. Imagine if someone said you'd have to "look real hard" to find any black people competent enough to run a business, be a doctor, or do anything else traditionally dominated by whites. That wouldn't sound as funny would it? Double standards...?

Besides didn't Dirk Nowitski beat the Super team in Miami just last year for a title? Pretty sure he was MVP too

Don't be so sensitive. I was just suggesting that most of the good to great players in the NBA are black, which is quite obvious. And there are PLENTY of blacks competent enough to run major corporations, if given the chance, but therein lies the problem. No opportunity. In no way did I intend this statement to be racial, just stating a fact. That was 2 yrs ago, the Super team won it all last year, and I like Dirk too.

[JVB]

Don't be so sensitive. I was just suggesting that most of the good to great players in the NBA are black, which is quite obvious. And there are PLENTY of blacks competent enough to run major corporations, if given the chance, but therein lies the problem. No opportunity. In no way did I intend this statement to be racial, just stating a fact. That was 2 yrs ago, the Super team won it all last year, and I like Dirk too.

I was actually just trying to make a point with the analogy, I'm too old to try out for the Pistons and wasn't good enough anyway.

Just like there are very good white players in the NBA that are white, they are still underrepresented. Does that mean they aren't being given the opportunity, or something else? The same can be said for business leaders, doctors, etc that are black. The fact that there are competent blacks in these positions should be evidence that the opportunities are there, and just because blacks are underrepresented in those areas doesn't mean they don't have the opportunity.

Claiming that there aren't enough blacks in these types of positions due to lack of opportunity is as silly as saying there aren't more whites in the NBA because of lack of opportunity. In a capitalist system, the cream will rise to the top. If you're good enough to do something that others can't, then you will be paid well to do it. If you find yourself not in those types of positions, it's not due to a conspiracy or lack of opportunity, it's because you're not good enough.

[wolverine]

Help me out here...so does this mean that a poor white kid, from a poor area can benefit from AA too? I'm only asking because I don't know the rules.

I've seen but can't validate that it's possible in college admissions. A white student applying for college may receive affirmative action benefits from counties or communities that are economically disadvantaged or high racial minority populations. That still doesn't make a lot of sense in counties with huge disparities. Again, I cannot validate if this still exists or exactly what the language was.

[noise]

Those of you against AA...can you explain clearly how AA works at a place like UofM?

[Danny]

I'm against Affrimative Action period. Why this nation want to hire or accept more people based on color rather than qualifications? My film company I only hire people based on qualifications and experience not on race and I don't discriminate any future applicant based on race, sex, age, color, or creed.

Americans needs to quite whining on race cards and work together for a better free proletarian world society.

[noise]

I don't think you understand Affirmative Action, Danny.

[Cincinnati_Kid]

I'm against Affrimative Action period. Why this nation want to hire or accept more people based on color rather than qualifications? My film company I only hire people based on qualifications and experience not on race and I don't discriminate any future applicant based on race, sex, age, color, or creed.

Americans needs to quite whining on race cards and work together for a better free proletarian world society.

I agree with you Danny, but you know it doesn't work like that. If that were the case, there would be more black, hispanic, asian, or women CEO's that run major corporations. They allow them to reach a certain ceiling, and then that's as far as they get. Roy Roberts at one time was the highest ranking black at GM, but he was way down the totem pole compared to other white executives, as far as hierarchy and major decision making within the company was concerned. Corporate America is always going to give white males the keys to the car.

[coracle]

I agree with you Danny, but you know it doesn't work like that. If that were the case, there would be more black, hispanic, asian, or women CEO's that run major corporations. They allow them to reach a certain ceiling, and then that's as far as they get. Roy Roberts at one time was the highest ranking black at GM, but he was way down the totem pole compared to other white executives, as far as hierarchy and major decision making within the company was concerned. Corporate America is always going to give white males the keys to the car.

That's bullshit. When it comes to large or small Companies what matters most is PROFIT and the Shareholders/Board make the decision based on their pockets; not color. In a scenario where Profit is not the motive [[though it should be) the keys to the car have been given out based purely on color to a group to run Detroit and look what a mess they're making of that.

[gazhekwe]

The problem is, with fewer minorities than whites in powerful positions, the more likely it is that hiring entities will default to the idea that whites are automatically more qualified.

Some hiring qualifications that sound normal and non-discriminatory tend to favor whites, which is called disparate impact. The classic example is Griggs vs Duke Power, where entry level positions out of the foundry required a high school diploma in an area that had few minorities graduating from high school. An examination of the entry level jobs showed that whites had been hired without high school diplomas. There were no minorities outside the foundry.

I love to share the knowledge I acquired during my long career in civil rights.

One other point, re: those who insist that affirmative action is a quota system, when it is not. Quotas are like bag limits. We have to hire so many black people, then we can quit [[and hire qualified people). The implication is that minorities are somehow less qualified and need "extra points" to beat out the really qualified white applicants. That is not how affirmative action works.

The idea is to work on the requirements to fill a position, and recruit to increase the number of qualified minority applicants. These applicants have to compete on the same basis as white applicants. The "points" come in when there are people with similar qualifications, meaning each would amply qualify for the job. If there are 10 white and 0 black applicants for one job, there is a sorting process done to decide which of the 10 would be hired. When the goal is to increase minority employment in the company, if there are 8 white and 2 minority applicants equally qualified, then the minority applicants would be given first consideration. Still only one person gets hired. So, were the equally qualified minorities given special preference? Yes. Absent affirmative action, if no minorities were hired, when all were equally qualified, is it possible the white applicant was given special preference? Yes.

[JVB]

JVB, While it is true that two wrongs don't make a right, remember that many loan, employment and education opportunities are still bound by the white rules which keep minorities out.

Still waiting to hear what these "white rules" are...

[JVB]

If that were the case, there would be more black, hispanic, asian, or women CEO's that run major corporations. They allow them to reach a certain ceiling, and then that's as far as they get.

Don Thompson is the CEO of McDonald's, and he was born in the Cabrini Green projects in Chicago.
Kenneth Chenault is the CEO of American Express, and has been for over 10 years.
Ursula Burns is the CEO of Xerox, and she was raised by a single mother in the Baruch projects in New York.
Clarence Otis is the CEO of Darden Restaurants [[Red Lobster, Olive Garden, Longhorn Steakhouse)

There's other current and former big time CEO's that are black too - I'm sure they would love to hear about this "certain ceiling" that you claim has kept them back. We also have 4-star generals that are black, the President is biracial, the last two Secretaries of State were black, I could go on.

At some point you have to admit that most of the people not succeeding in life [[black, white or other) are being held back by themselves, not some mysterious ceiling.

[rb336]

There are proportionally FAR fewer minority or female board members than white male board members, even after training and experience differences are factored out [[looking at the people in board seats with x education and y experience, white males are still over-represented by a wide margin)

[Cincinnati_Kid]

That's bullshit. When it comes to large or small Companies what matters most is PROFIT and the Shareholders/Board make the decision based on their pockets; not color. In a scenario where Profit is not the motive [[though it should be) the keys to the car have been given out based purely on color to a group to run Detroit and look what a mess they're making of that.

It's not bullshit. You need to wake up from that coma you've been in.

[Cincinnati_Kid]

There are proportionally FAR fewer minority or female board members than white male board members, even after training and experience differences are factored out [[looking at the people in board seats with x education and y experience, white males are still over-represented by a wide margin)

Thank you, it's the board of directors that companies have to answer to, in regards to decisions on how that company is run. And those decisions are made overwhelmingly by white males. Those examples that JVB gave are only a sample size from the big picture. There are minority and women CEO's , I never disputed that. But there should be a lot more.

[JVB]

There are proportionally FAR fewer minority or female board members than white male board members, even after training and experience differences are factored out [[looking at the people in board seats with x education and y experience, white males are still over-represented by a wide margin)

Agreed, but if you look at my NBA analogy you'll see that it may not be indicative of some grand conspiracy.

Why do we think it's perfectly normal that blacks are over represented in the NBA, but it's not normal that whites are over represented in board rooms? In a capitalist system, the best person for the job will always be sought. Whoever best maximizes profit is the person that will be sought to fill that position.

[Cincinnati_Kid]

Why is that? Let's hear your theory.

[JVB]

Why is that? Let's hear your theory.

My theory may not be particularly ground breaking or interesting. I think you get as far as your talent and hard work takes you. There is some luck or serendipity involved to some extent but for the most part your lot in life is directly related to how hard you're willing to work at something.

I'd love to hear your theory on why some blacks end up as CEO's and directors of Fortune 500 companies [[or President, or Secretary of State or 4-star general etc) if there is some invisible ceiling supposedly preventing it? How did they slip through?

[gazhekwe]

JVB What white rules? There are so many, all predicated on the foundations of society.

Qualifications -- weight given to relatives of all white work forces, graduation from recognized "good" schools [[NOT GPA in any school), requirements for high school diplomas for entry level type jobs like gas station attendant, or Bachelor's degree for things like wait staff, tests designed to test for values recognized by the mainstream or white society. Tests can be tricky things, designed mainly by white professionals. What makes sense to them does not always trigger recognition in other groups.

Example: I was given an IQ test which I completed, all except for one question which I could not decipher. When I finished the rest of the test, I went back to the troublesome question. It was in a part of the test which was devoted to deciding whether the object pictured was a left or right object. There were hands, wings and other things which I was able to easily identify. I never did figure out what the mystery object was, but based on the orientation I guessed it was right. After the test, I asked a white girl I knew what was that object. I sketched it for her. She said it was a suit lapel. Well, of course I had seen suits on people in the bank or on TV, but I didn't examine them closely. If anyone in my large extended family had a suit, they never wore it where I saw it. I had never handled a suit or worn one. Turns out, it was a left lapel, because you had to turn it around. Facing, as it was shown, it was on the right, but if worn, it was a left lapel.

When someone alleges they were unfairly denied employment based on race, it is not enough to look at whether they met the stated qualifications, we must also check to see if everyone hired met those qualifications, and whether the qualifications are disparately excluding minority applicants.

The fact that there are black CEO's and a black President are not evidence of the absence of discrimination, since discrimination so clearly still exists when we get people saying things like, Let's make it a White House again. They are evidence of the good works of affirmative action and the refusal of the person to be put in a box by the majority society. Our President was raised by his white relatives and learned those values and how they worked quite well, all the while battling the skin color prejudices against others like him held by those same beloved relatives.

When you walk in two worlds as I do, and as the President did, you can clearly see the wall that separates the minority world and the white world. With the right mentors, you can find a way to open the gates and get through.

[JVB]

Qualifications -- weight given to relatives of all white work forces

How would that benefit poor whites without those connections?

graduation from recognized "good" schools [[NOT GPA in any school)

How would that benefit poor whites that didn't go to "good schools"?

requirements for high school diplomas for entry level type jobs like gas station attendant, or Bachelor's degree for things like wait staff

How would that benefit poor whites that didn't have the same educational opportunities?

After the test, I asked a white girl I knew what was that object. I sketched it for her. She said it was a suit lapel. Well, of course I had seen suits on people in the bank or on TV, but I didn't examine them closely. If anyone in my large extended family had a suit, they never wore it where I saw it. I had never handled a suit or worn one. Turns out, it was a left lapel, because you had to turn it around. Facing, as it was shown, it was on the right, but if worn, it was a left lapel.

Lots of poor whites have never worn or seen suits worn either. And lots of blacks [[and whites) wear suits to church.

See, all of these things you listed are not race-based issues, but rather socioeconomic issues. That's the problem with race-based affirmative action. It addresses issues experienced by poor minorities, but ignores poor whites even though they make up larger numbers. That was my whole point - any affirmative action should be based on socioeconomic background, not race. Otherwise, you're just discriminating on race, and adding fuel to the fire of race relations.

If affirmative action type policies were designed along socioeconomic lines rather than race, it would be hard for people to point the finger at these policies as being unfair to any group of people. I don't believe the government should be involved in any social engineering [[because they don't do anything well), but if they insist then it certainly shouldn't be in a divisive manner like race-based or gender based programs.

Remember, when we talk about poor whites, we're not talking about a small group of people here. There are more poor white people in this country than poor blacks. Ignoring them is extremely unfair.

[gazhekwe]

We are talking about affirmative action under civil rights law to increase representation of the underrepresented by race, and whites are not underrepresented. Lower economic condition is not protected by civil rights laws. For all your arguments that they SHOULD represent poor people regardless of race, civil rights laws do not contain those provisions.

You may not think it is fair, but it is law. I could argue about a poor black person's chances versus a poor white person's chances, but I suspect it would not increase your understanding of affirmative action or civil rights law.

[rb336]

Agreed, but if you look at my NBA analogy you'll see that it may not be indicative of some grand conspiracy.

That is a very inept analogy that ignores every aspect of what you quoted from me. It ignores that a far higher portion of the African American community plays basketball religiously [[and in case you were wondering, there are socio-economic and cultural factors that play into it). If you take proportionality into account, I would bet you would find a ratio in the NBA that is far more in keeping with a "hired based on skills/experience" model than you find in the board rooms

[JVB]

That is a very inept analogy that ignores every aspect of what you quoted from me. It ignores that a far higher portion of the African American community plays basketball religiously [[and in case you were wondering, there are socio-economic and cultural factors that play into it). If you take proportionality into account, I would bet you would find a ratio in the NBA that is far more in keeping with a "hired based on skills/experience" model than you find in the board rooms

That's a lot of assumptions so I'd love to see some numbers to back that up.

Lower economic condition is not protected by civil rights laws. For all your arguments that they SHOULD represent poor people regardless of race, civil rights laws do not contain those provisions.

But shouldn't they?

You may not think it is fair, but it is law.

That same argument has been made to violate human rights since governments have existed. I don't think we need a history lesson in this thread, do we? Just because something is the law, doesn't make it right and bad laws should be changed. Discriminating by race is immoral, and anybody that supports it in any form is in bad company historically.

[oladub]

I've seen but can't validate that it's possible in college admissions. A white student applying for college may receive affirmative action benefits from counties or communities that are economically disadvantaged or high racial minority populations. That still doesn't make a lot of sense in counties with huge disparities. Again, I cannot validate if this still exists or exactly what the language was.

Yes, white students applying for college may receive affirmative action benefits from counties or communities that are economically disadvantaged. Well, not actually from those communities but they may receive consideration from college admissions offices that their math placement scores, for instance, might be lower because the schools they attend to not have honors courses and other advantages. My kids attended a school system in which the average family had only 70% of the state median income. They didn't even have college prep chemistry offered them in High school.

However, key point, those white students never receive admissions points for being white; only for having attending a poor school district.

Detroit, by the way, has a median family income of only 59% that of the average Michigan family.