Economic Stimulus.. Where are the jobs?

[ccbatson]

Obama is, in fact a liberal fascist in the truest sense. Proof, his own words will suffice. Start with the definition of fascism and apply it to Obama...bingo.

[Lorax]

You are just kidding, right? You, the biggest lexicographer and most colorful writter on the forum is accusing others of shifting the definitions of words for dramatic effect? "Rethugican knuckle draggers" was a proper literal description and not a visciously figurative one? You still haven't answered any of the questions regarding what definitions apply to your words. I don't want to twist the clear honest dialogue you meant to convey.

Of course terms like "Rethugnican knuckle dragger" are figurative, decorative, whatever adjective you choose to use will do.

But it's not dishonest.

The ideas and ideology of the right is in keeping with a Neanderthal mindset.

It is used as a metaphor for looking backward, or being backward. Not viscious as you say, but witty and descriptive.

I haven't answered any questions regarding my words, since I don't remember being asked. If it's so important for you to understand the meaning of my words, then you need to return to the second grade and try playing a round of "similie" with your friends again.

I think the word associations I use are fairly self-explainatory to anyone who's been awake and absorbed a modicum of history.

You say I'm a colorful "writter"- is that some sort of shape-shifting of the words "writer" and "twitter"?

That would be very modern and thoughful of you. I may use that one while "writtering".

[ccbatson]

Lorax, I was about to take you seriously for a moment, but then I recalled that in another thread you just claimed that capitalism is the root of our economic troubles...and all your credibility went bye bye.

[Lorax]

I thought your issue was that the American capitalist pigs and the Rethugicans views were too different from that of China and Viet Nam. Socialism, your political idealogy, not mine, is the one thats next to communism. If the united workers of the world have it better under communism, why aren't they getting paid more over there? I favor tougher trade policies on China until they start treating their citizens and the environment better. With a free Russia, we no longer need detante to weaken China. We just need to cut our support and let their economic models do them in.

That's not what I said or even inferred.

Fascism and Communism are flip-sides of the same coin. Both are dogmatic, and extreme by nature. One represents the extreme views of the far fascist right, the other, the extreme ideology of the far left. If they turn around and face each other they may as well be twins. It's like saying there is no difference between a multi-billion dollar multi-national corporation and the bureaucracy of a government.

Both operate in their own world, are accountable to practially no one, and are allowed to operate with impunity toward those they employ.

A socialist democracy, which is what the United States was arguably founded as, and the current crop of socialist democracies in Europe are more alike than different.

France has been socialist for years now, as has much of Scandanavia. There is nothing inherently evil in a nation taking care of it's people with socialized medicine, transporation, what have you.

The Chinese has socialized medicine, public transportation, job programs, subsidized farming, and have made a tacit agreement with American corporations to produce the goods to be resold to us, with the understanding that American corporations are willing to destroy the manufacturing bas of their own nation in order to turn a larger profit, in most cases and obscene profit, while throwing Americans out on the street for lack of work.

That's what gave rise to our credit-based economy which allowed people who's income constantly has trailed the rate of inflation [[cost of goods and services) that credit was the only way anyone was going to be able to buy things going forward.

And look where that has gotten us. Unregulated banks and lenders nationwide were allowed to gut the system for their own personal gain, leaving the American taxpayer holding the sack.

That's why I refer to American corporations as largely run by fascists, since, as my favorite so-called "american" corporation, Halliburton, ended up moving it's HQ from Texas to Dubai in order to avoid paying ANY taxes as it relates to their overseas businessses. And this was after 8 years of getting billions in no-bid contracts from the Bush Administration! How much corporate welfare are we suppose to hand out to these fascists?

And these are Americans?

Your belief system is that when government controls or manages something, it cannot possibly work.

Funny how I never hear any outrage at the way our military has been funded or managed, our postal system, Social Security, etc.

These are all proven to work well, especially when funded properly, and most often when Democrats are in charge in Washington.

When Republicans get in control, they work feverishly to break government by underfunding it, slashing needed programs, then point to it at election time and shout "look, it's broken, it doesn't work, get rid of it!"

This is their MO for privatizing everything, proving that worship of the CEO supplants all other loves.

The same metric is not applied to the military, which in spite of years of wasteful spending bordering on the obscene, has no one willing to blow the whistle on it.

Republicans don't do it because they believe in using the military as a personal police force, bringing down dictators they don't like in order to set up phony governments which will allow the corporations to operate with ease and impunity in getting what they want, in the case of Iraq, oil.

The Democrats don't do it for fear of being labeled weak on national security.

Basically our system is broken, and fixing it will require choices that will send the Republicans screwing themselves into the ground. Problem for them, is that just about every negative thing to impact our economy, our nation's prestige, and our inability to chart our own destiny in the last thrity years has happend on their watch.

If Republicans were so great at managing economies, we wouldn't find ourselves bankrupt and exposed to the vagaries of the Chinese and the Russians.

Republicans did this to us- with this last year being the harvest we've reaped from thrity years of Reagan/Bush trickle down economics, led by cheerleading stooges like Milton Friedman and Alan Greenspan.

[ccbatson]

If fascism and communism are on a continuum [[they are not necessarily, however, for sake of argument), and socialism is a milder form of communism [[on a continuum with it, which is true), then socialism necessarily leads to fascism.

Your logic, not mine.

[Lorax]

Lorax, I was about to take you seriously for a moment, but then I recalled that in another thread you just claimed that capitalism is the root of our economic troubles...and all your credibility went bye bye.

Capitalism is the root of the problem. When it is unregulated, and allowed to operate with impunity.

You need to stop reading only sound bites, and read the qualifiers that go with the statements.

This is Fox Noise trick, they love to pull out a few words of a statement, making it look black and white, when there are shades of gray- the qualifiers.

This reduces the dialogue to sound bites, which is intellectually dishonest.

[mjs]

A socialist democracy, which is what the United States was arguably founded as, and the current crop of socialist democracies in Europe are more alike than different.

I'm shocked and perplexed by everything you put into that post, but this is the one that really blew me away. If you think the founding federal government, which wasn't trusted with a big enough budget to make the interest payments on the debt from Obama's programs was socialist, I'm sorry I argued with you. Please don't blow up any buildings. Just take your meds and call your doctor. All will be fine comrade.

[oladub]

Lorax, my thoughts on definitions. The English language being what it is, words mean different things to different people. "Fascism" is a particularly problematic word. When I mean it as a synonym for "corporatism" I use it with an adjective, economic fascism = corporatism; a collusion of big business and big government. e.g. Bush's Wall Street Bailout. Mussolini and Hitler's brands of fascism began as economic fascism. Other people use fascism as a synonym for Nazism with suggestions of gas chambers. Others just use it to mean 'bad'.

'Authoritarianism' or 'autocracy' are sometimes better words to describe what many of us do not like about fascism and communism. They are both economically authoritarian and autocratic. One is an especially autocratic version of socialism. Under socialism, the government owns means of production such as banks and auto companies. The other is, as previously stated, a collusion of government and business control although the businesses are nominally independent entities.

I prefer at least a two dimensional map showing Democrats to be more socially libertarian and economically authoritarian and Republicans more socially authoritarian while being a little more economically libertarian.

I wouldn't declare Sweden to be socialist. Sweden has more socialist institutions than we do but it also is the home of capitalist Ingvar Kamprad the fourth richest man in the world.

[jiminnm]

Two things for you oladub.

First, I think your date of July 2010 may be too generous. After all, there are a fair number of people who believe that Bush could have acted to stop 9/11 [[8 months after his inaugaration). If so, why give Obama any longer?

Second, the problem with everyone throwing terms around is that their actual definitions get lost. Capitalism, socialism and communism are forms of economic systems dealing with who owns and/or controls the means to supply goods and services. Democracies [[in various forms) and other types of representative-based systems, facism, totalitarianism, monarchies, etc. are forms of governance. In theory, any type of economic can exist under any type of governance. Although, in practice, those societies with communism as their economic system have tended to be totalitarian.

Labeling folks as only left or right, or only Dem or Repub, is equally nonsensical, as a minority of people hold to that status on all issues. It makes it easy to call others names [[as many here do), but it doean't add anything to the discussion.

[ccbatson]

We were founded as a socialist democracy?? That is insane...we fought a revolution to get away from that kind of system.

[Detroitej72]

Labeling folks as only left or right, or only Dem or Repub, is equally nonsensical, as a minority of people hold to that status on all issues. It makes it easy to call others names [[as many here do), but it doean't add anything to the discussion.

That is a major problem with people. Both sides engage in this stupid name calling, but the right seems to have it down to a science, if only because of all the blowhards on AM radio and Fox News.

One of America's biggest problems today is this great divide between the two camps. Until we come together and stop the foolish finger pointing and name calling, don't expect much of the SOP to change for the better.

[Detroitej72]

The problem I see with the stimulus package [[or GWB's $600 giveaway for that matter)... is that when individual people spend extra money that they might get for ANY stimulus package... if they go to a Walmart, or a dollar store or appliance store... much of their money ends up going for Asian made goods. So the effect on the US economy is minimal at best.

But that's one of the major problems with having a "global" economy.... the benefits of any stimulus package often becomes difffused and goes well beyond the USA.

We made our proverbial beds... and now we have to suffer the consequences of it.

That is an excellent example of why this county is doomed to be relegated to second tier status. If we don't have the manufacturing base to provide us with our essential products, we will continue to be at the mercy of countries such as China. That may be fine if you support a global economy, but we need to think in terms of what's best for America. Are we going to buy our military weapons from the Chinese?

Its no coincidence that this country enjoyed its best prosperity when we were a manufacturing powerhouse. Then the big companies started merging and buying out weaker and smaller ones. To maximize profits, it was cheaper to move production to third world counties. Combine that with the lack of patriotism on behalf of the corporate officials, and we now far more dependent upon others for our basic goods.

That is why we need to scrape this whole global economy farce that is being implemented in the boardrooms. Its time to go back to an "America First" trade policy.

[jams]

We were founded as a socialist democracy?? That is insane...we fought a revolution to get away from that kind of system.

Funny, I thought the American Revolution was about a monarchy oppressing the colonies with taxation and trade restrictions.

[Sstashmoo]

Quote: "Its time to go back to an "America First" trade policy."

DJ, You are right again...

Sometimes I think all this hawkishness, i.e. Iran, Korea etc. is just a diversion, and as anyone that knows anything about scams, diversion is the key element. Diverting our attention away as our economy is fleeced head to toe.

[Detroitej72]

Sometimes I think all this hawkishness, i.e. Iran, Korea etc. is just a diversion, and as anyone that knows anything about scams, diversion is the key element. Diverting our attention away as our economy is fleeced head to toe.

You may be onto something there...

[Lorax]

Interesting points here, and some good replies. I agree with Oladub on these points, as the majority of people are rarely fixated 100% in their ideology, save, of course the most reactionary of the religious right.

Further to the point, there is a blending of terms, which I'm sure we all have to describe ourselves.

When I refer to socialist democracies, I refer to many European nations which operate as such, and have had great success in blending the public need with regulated free enterprise.

As for this country being founded as a socialist democracy, if those of you care to read the writings of Jefferson and Madison, you'll see how it was their intent for government to serve the people- since in the truest sense, it was government of, by, and for the people.

People were not as far removed from their government as they are today. This model can still work with a population of over 300 million, as it did with the original 13 colonies.

The model laid out by Franklin Roosevelt was the beginning of this, and it was cut short abruptly, and should have been expanded to keep up with the progress of our society, and especially in recent years with technology. We would have enjoyed 60+ years of socialized medicine had it not gone down to defeat by 1 vote in the Senate under Harry Truman.

European socialist democracies have passed us in this area, with socialized medicine, taxes used for culture and infrastructure, such as museums, trains, green technologies, medical research, etc.

There is no disputing this. We trail the world in so many of these areas.

The problem with some of you guys, is you still view the word "socialist" and "socialism" as dirty words.

We are already largely socialized, as we pay taxes to fund our police, fire departments, parks, schools, Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, etc.

If you feel more comfortable re-naming it, then do so, but socialism when designed correctly, works very well.

People think of the old USSR as being socialist, when it really was communist, terms which can be about as far apart as it gets.

[Sstashmoo]

Quote: "We are already largely socialized, as we pay taxes to fund our police, fire departments, parks, schools, Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, etc."

Yeah, and there all broke, any other great ideas?

[Lorax]

So glad you finally argee on what is already established fact.

They may be broken in many places, thanks to the bankrupted ideology of the Rethugnican Reich.

Better start voting for progressives like Dennis Kucinich and Bernie Sanders an admitted and true [[gasp) socialist!

[Sstashmoo]

This person makes no sense.

Them: "I'm for socialism"

Me: "It doesn't work"

Them: "At least we agree on that"

[Lorax]

This person makes no sense.

Them: "I'm for socialism"

Me: "It doesn't work"

Them: "At least we agree on that"

You had a thought, and thankfully for the rest of us, let it go.

[Sstashmoo]

Quote: "You had a thought, and thankfully for the rest of us, let it go."

On your next session of clarity, if that ever happens, you should take a minute and read your own posts, they look like four people typing on the same keyboard.

[Lorax]

And yours look as though they were typed without opposing thumbs.

So what's your point, Sparkles?

[ccbatson]

Sstashmoo has this one exactly correct.

[oladub]

"It’s no surprise therefore that the country is already being prepped for a second stimulus. Sure, Washington would like to act tough and tell the States to clean up their act. This is the moral hectoring version of Ben Bernanke saying in 2006 he doubts US real estate will ever decline year over year, or Treasury Secty Paulson saying that the front-end of the crisis was just a problem contained to sub-prime. We’ve seen this script before. If California issuing IOUs in a state where banks refuse to accept them doesn’t get the message across, nothing will. We are on the front end, not the back end, of a crisis within the States."
https://www.kitcomm.com/showthread.php?t=46492

[ccbatson]

The country can't withstand another stimulus....heck, I am not sure we can handle the first pork laden, liberal power grabbing nonstimulus package that has yet to be paid for and will cost 1 trillion in INTEREST ALONE each year.