Detroit Issues a Challenge to Save the City

[p69rrh51]

I disagree, in terms of overall benefit [[I think the suburbs, overall, would probably be stronger with a stronger central city), but you're right that the suburbs don't "need" Detroit anymore.

Some suburbs could possibly be hurt by a Detroit rennaisance. I would speculate that some of the ridiculous prices I see for "urban" living in Birmingham are caused by lack of options in the region. Most folks with money would never consider Detroit, so the people wanting a "city" experience come to a few blocks in the suburbs, and tear everything down for million dollar city homes.

There are tiny city lots [[no house) as narrow as a lot in SW Detroit that go for 500k not too far from me. The surrounding area isn't really that urban or cosmopolitan, but I think the prices are so high because there are no truly high-end Detroit neighborhoods.

I guess some people could speculate that some suburban politicans/jurisdictions benefit from urban decay. Overall, though, it hurts the region.

You are correct some areas such as Birmingham could take a hit, but right now B'ham has no problems thriving and has no need for Detroit. Although B'ham does have all the necessities that once were found in every neighborhood in Detroit. Unfortunately except for a few pockets most are no longer found in the city today.

[maverick1]

The suburbs have been thriving/flourishing for decades without any need for the city. I know many who have not set foot in the city for as long as 25-30 years and who have all their needs met. Look at Ye Old Butcher Shoppe, everyone went overboard about ONE specialty market opening up when we should be asking why there are not the 30-40 YOBS that should already be here. I have not purchased clothing, hardware, electronics, and other basic needs in the city in over 25 years, and until last week I had not purchased any non eastern market groceries in the city in over 30 years. What Detroit needs to learn is the burbs have ABSOLUTELY no need for the city!

This is true depending on your point of view. If Metro Detroit wants to be considered world class and recognized nationally like it once was it needs Detroit. If it wants to be just your average functional "flyover state" metro area then it's doing great right now and nothing needs to change.

[p69rrh51]

This is true depending on your point of view. If Metro Detroit wants to be considered world class and recognized nationally like it once was it needs Detroit. If it wants to be just your average functional "flyover state" metro area then it's doing great right now and nothing needs to change.

You stated that the suburbs could not THRIVE without Detroit. I just pointed out that they were beyond thriving without the core city. We all know the burbs and the city need to work together but the City of Detroit has to come to the realization that their s**t does stink now. I doubt we will ever become a world class city but we do have the means to be a regional powerhouse [[something the burbs could do all on their own). You need to distinguish between burbs thriving on their own and the region working together.

[Crumbled_pavement]

You stated that the suburbs could not THRIVE without Detroit. I just pointed out that they were beyond thriving without the core city. We all know the burbs and the city need to work together but the City of Detroit has to come to the realization that their s**t does stink now. I doubt we will ever become a world class city but we do have the means to be a regional powerhouse [[something the burbs could do all on their own). You need to distinguish between burbs thriving on their own and the region working together.

Actually I agree with you now that you've put it this way. I mean Michigan isn't losing population and college grads aren't flocking out of this state to other states with functional cities. I wonder how sustainable some people really think this model is. Good luck with the city-less suburbs residing within a dying state that the youth don't want to stay in.

LET'S KEEP UP THE PISSING CONTEST UNTIL THERE IS NOTHING LEFT. That'll show 'em!

[stasu1213]

Detroit had always been a "working man's town". It was designed that way. It could still be a working person's town with young people of different occupations instead of just factory skills. I agree that the younger generation could bring back Detroit with young ideas on how to bring the city back. It is not General Motors alone that had brought the downtown/midtown area on the incline; it is the smaller companies such as Bedrock, Galixie Solutions, and other companies that is bringing downtown Detroit to an upswing. These companies employ many young people who would bring young ideas to the city. Young people had brought the concept restarting walkable retail districts such as The Village on Agnes, pop up stores such as MooseJaw and the Detroit Shop in downtown Detroit and the renovation of neighborhoods in Detroit such as Corktown, Woodbridge, West Village, Lafayette Park, and Midtown. Gilbert, Karmanos, and Penske had brought young ideas to the city and are building up downtown Detroit. They are the ones as well as TRU who had tried developing a simple light rail system that would take commuters from downtown to the new center area. The old idea had decided to take over the light rail project and extend it to 8 mile road which will need the assistance of federal money. The old concept had stalled the idea of any light rail being developed in detroit. The late Tony Goldman had said that the young people will bring this city back. One building at a time; one block at a time. Old ideas always try to do things of a grander scales with smaller funding and narrower shortsighted views.

[p69rrh51]

Actually I agree with you now that you've put it this way. I mean Michigan isn't losing population and college grads aren't flocking out of this state to other states with functional cities. I wonder how sustainable some people really think this model is. Good luck with the city-less suburbs residing within a dying state that the youth don't want to stay in.

LET'S KEEP UP THE PISSING CONTEST UNTIL THERE IS NOTHING LEFT. That'll show 'em!

People leaving is a function of jobs! That is a statewide problem not just a problem of one messed up city!
I just stated the burbs were self sufficient and did not need the city[[if you do not like that its not my problem). Also the brain drain could slowed/reversed without Detroit in the equation. What the core city has to realize it has been irrelevant for a long time!
I do not know how old you are for me its the 3rd "REBIRTH" of Detroit I have lived through and each time we are left with less than we had before. I am not holding my breath that this time will work. I am hopeful though as I see the region moving towards the diverse economy we had here before the auto industry took over.

[313WX]

People leaving is a function of jobs! That is a statewide problem not just a problem of one messed up city!
I just stated the burbs were self sufficient and did not need the city[[if you do not like that its not my problem). Also the brain drain could slowed/reversed without Detroit in the equation. What the core city has to realize it has been irrelevant for a long time!
I do not know how old you are for me its the 3rd "REBIRTH" of Detroit I have lived through and each time we are left with less than we had before. I am not holding my breath that this time will work. I am hopeful though as I see the region moving towards the diverse economy we had here before the auto industry took over.

I will agree with you about the rebirth of Detroit.

There have been so many so-called rebirths that I'm actually losing count [[one could even argue Gilbert is the new Ilitch). We tend to take one step forward and two steps back.

[313WX]

You stated that the suburbs could not THRIVE without Detroit. I just pointed out that they were beyond thriving without the core city. We all know the burbs and the city need to work together but the City of Detroit has to come to the realization that their s**t does stink now. I doubt we will ever become a world class city but we do have the means to be a regional powerhouse [[something the burbs could do all on their own). You need to distinguish between burbs thriving on their own and the region working together.

"Thrive" is relative.

I wouldn't call stagnant growth for the last 40 years, and rapid shrinkage relative to the rest of the country "thriving."

And it has been proven time and time again that companies and people are far more likely to invest in a region in a strong urban core than not.

Now the suburbs may continue to function just fine without Detroit [[because I admit, part of Detroit's problem is social and cultural), but don't think "SE Michigan" will be the greatest thing since sliced bread either.

[Detroitdave]

Remember if this ship sinks what do you think is going to happen to the rest of the region ???????, if this ship sinks, you are just going to be floating around in a life boat waiting for someone to come save you ! Why not repair the boat so we all can float into port ?
What happens in Detroit effects all of METRO Detroit , It's a image problem, the ENTIRE region has to work to over come .
Just because some feel "safe" in their comfy suburb , look around , it's not that much different , i've seen all the for lease signs in the burbs too. and several city are in trouble money wise also , i/e Allen Park , Ecorse , even Westland , Warren.
Granted Detroit problems are HUGE ! but don't be fooled what happens in the city will and can spill over to entire region, "those" people just move out to those "safe" suburbs , i'e Farmington Hills , Southfield, Redford , ect
Business leaders are figuring out a way around the "city clowcil ".
However the people left in the city have to deal with these so called leaders .
Until we can replace the city council completely with a functioning city government businesses will have to lead the way .
SOS

"I don't have anything against grandiose ideas, you use those ideas to build upon the things you are already doing successfully."

Exactly. It's like having a birthday cake that's all icing. I'm happy that there are signs that young people have discovered the "Big City" and are moving in, but Detroit needs sustainability. I'm going to repeat myself here, until you have in place a government that isn't concerned with self-serving interests, you have icing. And the likelyhood of regime change is small because you're out voted. Personally, I'm getting tired of pouring money into the sinking ship, it's time to man the lifeboats. And I don't need a $200 Pataginia jacket and a $15 watermelon to do that.

[p69rrh51]

"Thrive" is relative.

I wouldn't call stagnant growth for the last 40 years, and rapid shrinkage relative to the rest of the country "thriving."

And it has been proven time and time again that companies and people are far more likely to invest in a region in a strong urban core than not.

Now the suburbs may continue to function just fine without Detroit [[because I admit, part of Detroit's problem is social and cultural), but don't think "SE Michigan" will be the greatest thing since sliced bread either.

I agree SE Michigan is pretty much a joke without Detroit functioning at a reasonable level.
I do think the burbs have been thriving for the last 40 years. The residents have all their needs met. What they have not been doing is Flourishing!

[Crumbled_pavement]

I just stated the burbs were self sufficient and did not need the city[[if you do not like that its not my problem).

Okay, well if everything is just fine as it is, then let's just leave it this way. We'll see how long Michigan [[the only state to lose population in the last census) does long term as its population ages and its youth leave in droves. Let's let Detroit decay away as it is worthless and of use to no one. Your work here is done, you solved the problem and now we can move on to more important issues.

I love how people overlook the fact that if Detroit completely collapses it takes the region with it. A bankruptcy in Detroit would lower the credit rating of surrounding communities. Let's ignore, Detroit has been completely irrelevant since the 60s and has long been a lost cause.

I agree SE Michigan is pretty much a joke without Detroit functioning at a reasonable level.
I do think the burbs have been thriving for the last 40 years. The residents have all their needs met. What they have not been doing is Flourishing!

Huh? And to flourish the burbs need a functional Detroit. Notice I used the word "need" in the last sentence.

[Crumbled_pavement]

It's sad that even in the depressing state that Southeast Michigan is in right now we still have factions chest thumping and bragging about how the other side is of no consequence to them. Someday we'll tear down all these walls and fiefdoms and function like a region. Hopefully that's before the rest of the nation completely laps us in every category. Hopefully people wake up before Michigan continues to be the only state to bleed population.

[p69rrh51]

Okay, well if everything is just fine as it is, then let's just leave it this way. We'll see how long Michigan [[the only state to lose population in the last census) does long term as its population ages and its youth leave in droves. Let's let Detroit decay away as it is worthless and of use to no one. Your work here is done, you solved the problem and now we can move on to more important issues.

I love how people overlook the fact that if Detroit completely collapses it takes the region with it. A bankruptcy in Detroit would lower the credit rating of surrounding communities. Let's ignore, Detroit has been completely irrelevant since the 60s and has long been a lost cause.

Huh? And to flourish the burbs need a functional Detroit. Notice I used the word "need" in the last sentence.

Its not DYes without someone flying off the handle! Nowhere did I state the burbs were perfect! I was nitpicking on one comment that stated the burbs were nuts if they thought they could thrive without Detroit. They can and have been for decades!
But I do not understand why you restated my posts and added information that we already are well aware of!!

[bailey]

Okay, well if everything is just fine as it is, then let's just leave it this way. We'll see how long Michigan [[the only state to lose population in the last census) does long term as its population ages and its youth leave in droves.

And would that have been the case had the American Auto industry not gone into a tailspin?

Yes the fact that SeM is sprawly and Detroit proper is a trainwreck makes the area less attractive on a whole, however pining all of the losses on it being sprawly and sucky isn't telling the whole story.

If the domestic auto industry had not entered a death spiral, there wouldnt have been the net loss of population. those that moved away to find jobs would have found them right here. it would have been status quo... which is pretty much the definition of sustainable.

if it was all about new urbanism, there wouldn't be massive migration to places like Texas or Florida.

[Bham1982]

Hopefully people wake up before Michigan continues to be the only state to bleed population.

Keep in mind that Metro Detroit was one of the faster growing Rust Belt metros in the 90's. The job growth was even faster than the population growth, and Metro Detroit had low unemployment throughout the 90's. Yet the region was just as screwed up then as now.

Metro Detroit lost population in the second half of the 00's, but that's almost entirely due to the auto industry. I don't think it has much to do with Detroit city's ills, or the region's lack of cooperation, because these have been constants for decades, while the population and economy are depend on the ups and downs of the automobile industry.

[stasu1213]

Keep in mind that Metro Detroit was one of the faster growing Rust Belt metros in the 90's. The job growth was even faster than the population growth, and Metro Detroit had low unemployment throughout the 90's. Yet the region was just as screwed up then as now.

Metro Detroit lost population in the second half of the 00's, but that's almost entirely due to the auto industry. I don't think it has much to do with Detroit city's ills, or the region's lack of cooperation, because these have been constants for decades, while the population and economy are depend on the ups and downs of the automobile industry.

Detroit would had been a much better city if Karmanos, Gilbert, Penske, and others had their say back in the 80s an 90s eventhough Gilbert was just getting started then

[Bham1982]

Detroit would had been a much better city if Karmanos, Gilbert, Penske, and others had their say back in the 80s an 90s eventhough Gilbert was just getting started then

Back then you had Taubman, Illitch, Gatzoros, Pappas, and various other downtown saviors. Same story, different day.

[p69rrh51]

Back then you had Taubman, Illitch, Gatzoros, Pappas, and various other downtown saviors. Same story, different day.

Definately a bigger bunch of crooks!
Of the whole group the only one who has proven to be an asset is Penske. The jury is still out on Gilbert. I wish Penske could have been persuaded to take on more responsibility, but he knew his management style would have not worked with the current power structure!

[Gistok]

Definately a bigger bunch of crooks!
Of the whole group the only one who has proven to be an asset is Penske. The jury is still out on Gilbert. I wish Penske could have been persuaded to take on more responsibility, but he knew his management style would have not worked with the current power structure!

As much as the Ilitch's are disliked for some of their activities, I would hardly call them crooks... Marion [[and by default Mike) would NEVER have passed the states Gaming Control Commission standards if there were ANY shady dealings in their past. As for the rest of them.... well...

[p69rrh51]

As much as the Ilitch's are disliked for some of their activities, I would hardly call them crooks... Marion [[and by default Mike) would NEVER have passed the states Gaming Control Commission standards if there were ANY shady dealings in their past. As for the rest of them.... well...

Looks like you have never done work for the Ilitch family. They still owe me money from almost a decade ago. They are famous for not paying their vendors! I have chatted with dozens who have been stiffed or received payments years after the work was completed. Atonas if I get his name right refused to pay the builder of his home in Grosse Pointe, forcing the builder to sue him.
My landlord for my business was asked to bid on a job for them, I told him to get the money up front. He was not happy when he did not win the bid, but was relieved when he found out the winner of the bid was never paid and forced out of business.