Meijer might come to Detroit

[jt1]

Does anyone else see the irony of this discussion. There are two situations in play that are completely contradictory and used by the people will discount any possibly positive news.

The claims are
1. If a business such as Meijer doesn't locate in the city then they are making a sound business decision because money can't be made in Detriot.
2. If a business such as Meijer is considering a store in the city they don't understand the issues/situation and will not be successful.

If a business doesn't locate here the naysayers praise their business acumen. If they are considering locating here then their due diligence must not be sufficient and they will fail.

Pick a side of the argument and stick with it.

[hudkina]

It isn't anecdotal. It's a fact. I work in commercial real estate. Call Ashkenazy and ask. While you're at it, ask for Eastland city/suburban market share [[they own both).

It's anecdotal until we see an indepth scientific study on the mall's customer base.

When Northland Mall was built in the 1950's it catered mostly to residents of Detroit's Northwest Side. The fact that it was called "Northland" Mall when it was in Southfield TWP at the southern end of Oakland County, shows who the mall was geared to. While I'm sure plenty of people from Oakland County initially shopped at Northland, as more and more malls opened in the northern areas of Oakland County there was no reason to go out of the way to Northland.

Today I'm sure a huge chunk of Northland's customer base comes from Detroit [[just as it always has), but even if a study found that 95% of the customers did indeed come from Detroit, that still doesn't change the fact that the original "95%" statement is anecdotal.

[hudkina]

As far as the bitchy, whiny morons...that's human nature. Denial and fear of the unkown are two traits that humans evolved that apparently helped with our survival.

The funny thing is that I'm sure most of the "nay-sayers" don't even live in North Central Detroit, Ferndale, or Hazel Park. They're speaking for 100,000 people that they don't necessarily know. It's silly to assume that all residents of Ferndale or Hazel Park will drive 8-10 miles to the next nearest Meijer when there is one directly across the street.

BTW, this development sort of reminds me of the "Crossroads Center" development in Detroit near the intersection of Southfield and Ford. It is across the street [[on two sides) from Dearborn and I'm sure many people who go to this center are in fact from Dearborn. The shopping center is home to a Residence Inn, Doubletree Hotel, Wendy's, Chili's, Office Depot, and Comp USA. A block away there is a Red Robin restaurant, also in the city limits.

While the Shopping Center at 8 Mile and Woodward will be much larger, I think it will be similar in nature. I don't think a Detroit address will have as much of a stigma for a "Red Robin" or a "Chili's" especially at this location. The area is relatively isolated. To the west you have a massive cemetery and to the east/southeast you have the massive State Fairgrounds. Really the only people that live within a 3/4 mile radius of this intersection are residents of Ferndale. [[and a few Detroit residents on Woodstock)

[Crumbled_pavement]

BTW, this development sort of reminds me of the "Crossroads Center" development in Detroit near the intersection of Southfield and Ford. It is across the street [[on two sides) from Dearborn and I'm sure many people who go to this center are in fact from Dearborn. The shopping center is home to a Residence Inn, Doubletree Hotel, Wendy's, Chili's, Office Depot, and Comp USA. A block away there is a Red Robin restaurant, also in the city limits.

HORSEPOO!@!!!! No way are any of the customers of any of those businesses from the suburbs. It's just not possible. I have tons and tons of data and reports for decades and decades that prove it is absolutely impossible for a suburbanite to shop in a store in Detroit. On top of that, if those businesses really do exist, they are only a week old as they will go out of business in about a week's time as they can't make a profit with a bunch of welfare recipients being their primary customers. Comp USA has already gone under for thinking they can make money accepting food stamps for computers.

How would the arguments put forth here change if this was a development on the NORTH side of Base Line Road?

I bet a lot of negativity here would be quite positive...

Detroit is the ugly duckling. Nothing that Detroit will ever do will be seen in a positive light. I honestly believe many of the naysayers want Detroit to succeed from the bottom of their hearts. Problem is, it can only succeed in their eyes if it is done their way. Otherwise it is automatically a failure to them.

[iheartthed]

BTW, this development sort of reminds me of the "Crossroads Center" development in Detroit near the intersection of Southfield and Ford. It is across the street [[on two sides) from Dearborn and I'm sure many people who go to this center are in fact from Dearborn. The shopping center is home to a Residence Inn, Doubletree Hotel, Wendy's, Chili's, Office Depot, and Comp USA. A block away there is a Red Robin restaurant, also in the city limits.)

Well, the Comp USA is no longer there because they went out of business... But the only logical conclusion for the entire chain going out of business MUST be because they actually operated a store within Detroit's city limits for over a decade.

[Bearinabox]

I love how someone's anecdotal "95%" is now in a news article...

I love how they quoted Crawford twice and implied that he was two different people. I guess if you want to be quoted, be memorable...

[EMG]

You do realise that the Target at Eastland Mall is in the top 5 highest for theft rates in the country right? How do I know? Buddy works in the Twin Cities at Corporate HQ. They have debated about closing this store many times...EVEN after renovating it.

Now that surprises even me. I would easily have believed "top five in Michigan" but the country? Wow.

[crawford]

Does anyone else see the irony of this discussion. There are two situations in play that are completely contradictory and used by the people will discount any possibly positive news.

Please take a logical reasoning class; then report back.

The claims are

1. If a business such as Meijer doesn't locate in the city then they are making a sound business decision because money can't be made in Detriot.

Nobody claimed this. The claim was that Meijer was specificially looking in Detroit because of suburban dollars, despite the fact that people who actually make their living in commercial real estate know that the urban market does not draw suburban consumers.

2. If a business such as Meijer is considering a store in the city they don't understand the issues/situation and will not be successful.

Nobody claimed this. I don't even know what this means.

[crawford]

BTW, this development sort of reminds me of the "Crossroads Center" development in Detroit near the intersection of Southfield and Ford. It is across the street [[on two sides) from Dearborn and I'm sure many people who go to this center are in fact from Dearborn. The shopping center is home to a Residence Inn, Doubletree Hotel, Wendy's, Chili's, Office Depot, and Comp USA. A block away there is a Red Robin restaurant, also in the city limits.

Actually, you're 100% correct on this, but still you miss the point.

The point is not that if a chain retailer is within Detroit city limits, there is a giant force field that repels suburbanites.

The point [[backed up by mountiains of data) is that the PERCEPTION of undesirables repels most folks. In most suburbanites minds, something within the city limits will draw undesirables, so is to be avoided. Retailing is all psychology.

In this case, however, the consumer does not even know they're in the city of Detroit. They don't have a clue. They think they're in Dearborn. Whether or not this is true is besides the point. It's the perception that is critical. If you put up a giant Detroit City Limits sign, the stores could possibly go under.

Now why does this perception not deter similarly middle class city residents? Well it does deter many, but not all, which makes intuitive sense. The fact that a middle class resident has willingly chosen to live in the city limits shows a higher threshold for proximity to undesirables. A University District homeowner is much more likely to not be deterred by undesirables than one from Huntington Woods.

In the case of 8 Mile, though, everyone knows it's Detroit, and therefore non-ghetto chain retail has proven unworkable. If it works here, it will be a first, and will be fodder for a Business School dissertation or two...

[DetroitDad]

Actually, you're 100% correct on this, but still you miss the point.

The point is not that if a chain retailer is within Detroit city limits, there is a giant force field that repels suburbanites.

The point [[backed up by mountiains of data) is that the PERCEPTION of undesirables repels most folks. In most suburbanites minds, something within the city limits will draw undesirables, so is to be avoided. Retailing is all psychology.

In this case, however, the consumer does not even know they're in the city of Detroit. They don't have a clue. They think they're in Dearborn. Whether or not this is true is besides the point. It's the perception that is critical. If you put up a giant Detroit City Limits sign, the stores could possibly go under.

Now why does this perception not deter similarly middle class city residents? Well it does deter many, but not all, which makes intuitive sense. The fact that a middle class resident has willingly chosen to live in the city limits shows a higher threshold for proximity to undesirables. A University District homeowner is much more likely to not be deterred by undesirables than one from Huntington Woods.

In the case of 8 Mile, though, everyone knows it's Detroit, and therefore non-ghetto chain retail has proven unworkable. If it works here, it will be a first, and will be fodder for a Business School dissertation or two...

I think that it might work, given that the suburbs are currently being filled with a lot of "undesirables" and crime. Crime, blight, and the old problem of rising taxes while services decline is going to be a huge problem for suburbanites, and this time they can't run from their problems.

Time to turn around and take the bull by the horns suburbanites. Let's fix our Metro by fixing our city!

[hudkina]

Crawford, you're putting WAY too much emphasis on the city/suburban divide. Do you honestly think every resident in Ferndale would travel the extra 5+ miles to go to the Madison Heights, Royal Oak, or Warren stores? Seriously? I don't know if you are arguing just for arguments sake, or you honestly believe the stuff you say.

This store isn't being built on Joy Rd in the middle of Detroit's West Side. It will sit on a very isolated area on the edge of the city. The State Fairgrounds act as huge buffer between the not so nice neighborhoods on the east side of the "mall." The neighborhoods on the west side contains some of the wealthiest people in the damn region!

The point is not that if a chain retailer is within Detroit city limits, there is a giant force field that repels suburbanites.

How do you know that? How many Meijer or Target stores have been built in Detroit? You don't have any comparable precedent!

If this store does open, there's no doubt in my mind that a large number of Ferndale and Hazel Park residents will shop here. They will see a nice, clean new store that is run just as well as [[if not better than) the other Meijer stores in the area and they will choose to shop there. It's as simple as that.

Most people aren't stupid enough to see a nice clean Meijer and think "My mommy told me not to cross the street..." They're going to see a nice clean Meijer and think "Hey, I need to get some groceries!"

[iheartthed]

In this case, however, the consumer does not even know they're in the city of Detroit. They don't have a clue. They think they're in Dearborn. Whether or not this is true is besides the point. It's the perception that is critical. If you put up a giant Detroit City Limits sign, the stores could possibly go under.

Except that there is a big giant Detroit City Limits sign on the Southfield service road that even gives the impression that everything on that side of Ford Road is on the Detroit side of the border.

[French777]

http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article...FREE/908139995

Came out Today!

[iheartthed]

If they do build there then Detroit would be the largest city to have a Meijer location. I wonder if they are interested in following the lead of Target, K-Mart and big box retailers who are trying to adapt to urban markets? Even Wal-Mart has built several stores in urban locations [[like Baltimore), and they have been trying to build a store in NYC for years.

[dcmorrison12]

French, thank you so much for the article. You have no idea how excited I am about the Meijer and the mall in Detroit. It's about time Detroit got some damn respect - we HAVE market for retail. A meijers could work in the middle of Detroit as well. Hell, it's a discount grocery store, how could it NOT work?

[French777]

Im really excited for this because it seems that the majority of woodward is coming along nicely. And this Shoppes at Gateway plaza would be a good first impression to first timers in "The D"

[2blocksaway]

Im really excited for this because it seems that the majority of woodward is coming along nicely. And this Shoppes at Gateway plaza would be a good first impression to first timers in "The D"

When was the last time your parents let you take the Town and Country on your own and drive down Woodward? Did you talk them in to letting you go to the Warped Tour all by yourself?

If you did you had the rose colored glasses the entire ride.

Not much has improved on Woodward. Some areas are better but most are worse than they were couple of years ago.

[313WX]

http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article...FREE/908139995

Came out Today!

It seems like they're signing the same agreement JC Penney signed [[and backed out of). So I would take it with a grain of salt until the construction actually begins...

Meijer Inc. plans to sign an agreement to develop a site plan for a 190,000-square foot store at the Shoppes at Gateway Park project.

Meijer President Mark Murray told Crain's that the site plan will be developed over the next 120 days, but that the Grand Rapids-based retail chain hasn't fully committed to building the store.

[313WX]

When was the last time your parents let you take the Town and Country on your own and drive down Woodward? Did you talk them in to letting you go to the Warped Tour all by yourself?

Considering the fact his family resides in Oakland County [[specifically Rochester), he probably owns a brand new Town & Country [[insured & everything) that his parents brought him & put in his name.

If you did you had the rose colored glasses the entire ride.

Not much has improved on Woodward. Some areas are better but most are worse than they were couple of years ago.

But more to the point, French777 is one of those optimistic "happy-go-lucky" people. In other words, even the truth can't rain on his imagination parade.

[French777]

its not a Town and Country its a Malibu....And yes I have been downtown Many times by myself...Never once have felt threatened. Last time I was there I tripped on the side on the curb and fell on my face and a nice person who was waiting at a bus stop came over and helped me up. Such Friendly people In Rochester most people would just point and laugh.

I take I- 75 down and Woodward home so its not like I haven't been on it before.

[dtowncitylover]

As someone who lives in Royal Oak, I for one would love to dump the one on Coolidge, for this one. Plus, it will be placed in a mall which means I could go both grocery and material shopping.

[dtowncitylover]

When was the last time your parents let you take the Town and Country on your own and drive down Woodward? Did you talk them in to letting you go to the Warped Tour all by yourself?

If you did you had the rose colored glasses the entire ride.

Not much has improved on Woodward. Some areas are better but most are worse than they were couple of years ago.

Saw your from GPW, when was the last time you went downtown in your Bentley? Did you make sure all the doors were locked?

[2blocksaway]

Saw your from GPW, when was the last time you went downtown in your Bentley? Did you make sure all the doors were locked?

Don't want to steroetype or anything do we?

I'm actually from the Park. So put that in your pipe and smoke it Royal Oak boy.

I work just off of Woodward around McNichols. I see plenty of bad sh*t everyday.

I wish I had a Bentley, but the Focus will have to do for now. Thats what happens when you don't live with the rents' anymore.

I used to live around your hood' and I too would love to see the Coolidge Meijer go bye-bye. What a dump.

[REL]

CrumbledPavement, I also sometimes shop at the K-Mart on Telegraph & 8 Mile and agree with your observations.

As for everyone talking about the "wealthy" people and where the "money" is a puzzling thing to hear in this thread. Last I heard, Meijer is a discount big-box store. If they were after the well-heeled, they'd build in Birmingham :P

[pffft]

http://www.detnews.com/article/20090...-Detroit-store