What happened downtown?

[Gistok]

It may be true that Detroit is larger than Manhattan, but there was indeed a land and speculative crunch in the early 20th century. William Durant built the old GM World HQ in New Center in 1920, mainly because he couldn't assemble enough land to build it downtown.

Even the former Michigan Theatre was squeezed into a smaller lot than the original developers had hoped for in 1926. The original intention was to build on the entire block, including the 9 parcels along Grand River Ave. [[the theatre was supposed to have a triple arched entryway, only the rightmost arch was ever built). When John Kunsky could not get the entire block, he had to make do with a smaller footprint, and therefore the Michigan Theatre was a very narrow [[albeit tall) theatre. Its' sidewalls were relatively flat, since the wider section along Grand River was not available to him, and he wanted to maximize the seating to over 4,000.

Of course the even grander 81 story Book Tower addition and 28 and 60 story Fisher Building additions went the way of many other future plans in 1929... cancelled due to the depression. But in the 1920s all cities across America had at least 1 or more high rises to show that the "roaring 20s" were a time of prosperity that would not stop. After 1933, the winds had been knocked out of the sails of future high rise expansion... and it wasn't until the late 1950s that any more highrises were built in Detroit.

The first 3 decades of the 20th century saw Detroit's population bursting at the seams, and although the residential areas were low density... the downtown area was booming with high rises, and many thought this would continue for many decades to come, and expand in all directions. Land along the main thoroughfares was very expensive back then, so downtown highrises reflected the shortage of land and high prices of what was available.

The folks in New Center thought that downtown would spread northward at high density to encompass that section... but that never happened. The largest movie palace outside of downtown, the Hollywood Theatre [[pounded to rubble in the mid 20th century due to lack of patrons) at Fort & 18th St. was built because it was believed downtown would spread westward as well... but that never happened. Even the Lee Plaza was built thinking that one day the city high rises would expand along West Grand Boulevard, but again that never happened.

[KJ5]

We need a giant statue...of a skyscraper! A big anthropomorphized skyscraper!

[Danny]

Also please refrain from lumping all whites together. If you going to bring up race or ethnicity you have to go much deeper than whites keeping those of color out of their neighborhoods. They were also keeping out other whites who were not of their ethnic background. If you look at deeds from the era many nieghborhoods spelled out what whites were barred. On top of that I think blacks or Hispanics did not want any of the white eithnic groups moving into their neighborhoods either.

If you are going to bring up the GP Point system please get your facts straight! The Point system was meant to keep out EVERYONE not just people of color. Anyone who did not meet the standard were steered in a different direction. Even stranger is that current residents had to give a "good" reason to be able to put their home on the market. How many of us would laugh in the face of a realtor demanding that answer today? Going through the GP Board of Realtors info from the late 40's early 50's I saw some interesting answers but my favorite was the owner of a 7,000 sq. ft. home put down that the house was to small for his answer. I later found that he purchased a 10.000 sq. ft. home. So please when mentioning the point system remember that every ethnic group in the city was affected by it!

You also failed to mention block busting and other racially motivated tactics employed by realtors in the 40's and 50's. The block busting in Fairview/Jefferson Chalmers is so famous its studied in almost every college Urban Studies/Urban Planning program.

Race plays a role of Detroit's images Like Dr. Alonzo Fleming says..."White people built Detroit. Black folks were invited in." I've meantion middle income white Detroit families in my codespeak poor white families that in the restrictive covenants real estate grid. That is why you see certian Detroit homes that are wood frames to brick were meant for middle income white folks and smaller to near industrial Detroit neighborhood grids were meant for poor white Detroit families.

For the Pointe System you only interpreted second person paragraphical sentences. The actually meaning for the Pointe System is meant for rich white families. [[as in higher income standards.) It's not for blacks, jews, poor whites and others!

The primary blockbusting in Detroit's neighborhoods is the attack of Black Bottom and Paradise Valley from an all white Detroit city Council. The attack of Poletown by Coleman A. Young. Before the blockbusting in Fairview, E. Jefferson, Chalmers in the 1970s that area was hit by the riots and so the rest of lower east and west ghettohoods including most of Dexter, Linwood and 12th [[Rosa Parks). In fact the 1967 riots effected those areas into the point of block busting into urban praries [[a.k.a brownfields) you see today.

Please read my codespeak before posting any of your comments.

[cramerro]

If you do some basic research about some of the larger office complexes around Detroit [[New Center, Midtown, Downtown) you will find that there were many plans laid for bigger, taller skyscrapers. The two most famous are the Book Tower complex [[now a 38 story tower with a 12 story building attached... that was planned to be the connecting wing to an 81 story tower to the south) and the Fisher Building on WGB [[a 30 story tower which was intended to be the first of three towers running west along WGB, with the center one being 60 stories).

It was already mentioned earlier, but this really puts a point on it for me. The timing of the great depression halted what likely would have been a signficant period of growth for the city in terms of buildings and institutions. Obviously our population continued to grow for another 20 years, but much of that was due to the physical size of the city growing and new housing being built there [[meaning it was not an intensification of established areas). 1928 and 1929 saw the completion of several of our historic skyscrapers, and signaled an end to the era of new buildings that saw only sporadic projects from that point forward.

[p69rrh51]

Race plays a role of Detroit's images Like Dr. Alonzo Fleming says..."White people built Detroit. Black folks were invited in." I've meantion middle income white Detroit families in my codespeak poor white families that in the restrictive covenants real estate grid. That is why you see certian Detroit homes that are wood frames to brick were meant for middle income white folks and smaller to near industrial Detroit neighborhood grids were meant for poor white Detroit families.

For the Pointe System you only interpreted second person paragraphical sentences. The actually meaning for the Pointe System is meant for rich white families. [[as in higher income standards.) It's not for blacks, jews, poor whites and others!

The primary blockbusting in Detroit's neighborhoods is the attack of Black Bottom and Paradise Valley from an all white Detroit city Council. The attack of Poletown by Coleman A. Young. Before the blockbusting in Fairview, E. Jefferson, Chalmers in the 1970s that area was hit by the riots and so the rest of lower east and west ghettohoods including most of Dexter, Linwood and 12th [[Rosa Parks). In fact the 1967 riots effected those areas into the point of block busting into urban praries [[a.k.a brownfields) you see today.

Please read my codespeak before posting any of your comments.

Looks like you are under the delusion that all rich white families were automatically welcomed to GP with open arms, that could not be farther from the truth! Not all rich white families passed the point system! Just ask all the Italians, Poles, and Catholics etc. who had the means but were turned away. When my parents sold their home in 1980 we looked at the deed there were more white nationalities listed than people of color that were barred from purchasing the home. In fact it listed Catholics of which my father was. He should not have been sold the home in the 1960's according to the deed. Like I said everyone was affected by the system. Sorry if that does not meet your codespeak.

As for the neighborhoods you mentioned by 1967 block busting already destroyed them. If you read your history block busting started in the 1950's and was pretty much finished by the riots. All the riots did was flush out the few remaining long time residents. Also even though Fairview/JC took a big hit the area is by no means a brownfield and surprisingly intact below E. Jefferson. Of course from E. Jeff to the Freeway is a different story. Discrimination is a double edged sword be careful how you wield it!

Its funny frame construction was very prevalent in almost all areas of the city up to about 1920, but if you take the time to notice brick construction took in almost all areas in the early 1920's.

What were the builders supposed to do with low income housing make it unaffordable? As with post 1920 construction many were kits homes and most of the kits were of frame type construction. Low income owners could get a well made home for a reasonable price. What is wrong with that?

Your codespeak seems to be in the twilight zone speak sometimes.

[Danny]

Looks like you are under the delusion that all rich white families were automatically welcomed to GP with open arms, that could not be farther from the truth! Not all rich white families passed the point system! Just ask all the Italians, Poles, and Catholics etc. who had the means but were turned away. When my parents sold their home in 1980 we looked at the deed there were more white nationalities listed than people of color that were barred from purchasing the home. In fact it listed Catholics of which my father was. He should not have been sold the home in the 1960's according to the deed. Like I said everyone was affected by the system. Sorry if that does not meet your codespeak.

As for the neighborhoods you mentioned by 1967 block busting already destroyed them. If you read your history block busting started in the 1950's and was pretty much finished by the riots. All the riots did was flush out the few remaining long time residents. Also even though Fairview/JC took a big hit the area is by no means a brownfield and surprisingly intact below E. Jefferson. Of course from E. Jeff to the Freeway is a different story. Discrimination is a double edged sword be careful how you wield it!

Its funny frame construction was very prevalent in almost all areas of the city up to about 1920, but if you take the time to notice brick construction took in almost all areas in the early 1920's.

What were the builders supposed to do with low income housing make it unaffordable? As with post 1920 construction many were kits homes and most of the kits were of frame type construction. Low income owners could get a well made home for a reasonable price. What is wrong with that?

Your codespeak seems to be in the twilight zone speak sometimes.

Be well aware that the Pointe System is only meant for for those with higher standard of living [[ a.k.a. mainly rich white folks). Blacks, Jews, poor whites and others have been kept out.

When you say blockbusting started in the 1950s, yes. In Detroit the destruction of Black Bottom and Paradise Valley lead to self black middle and poor class to relocated to certain Detroit neighborhoods. Most black Detroiters move further to the west side via the ethnic Jewish communities. Coleman A. Young attacked Polish white poor and middle class folks by destroying Poletown for the GM main plant in 1980.

The Freeway [[ I-94) only destroyed certian connecting Detroit neighborhoods connecting Harper Rd. and its businesses strip up to Dickerson St. passing Chandler Park. The main demise Fairview, Jefferson, Alter Rd. is caused by the 1967 riots. That is according to the Detroit News Article of 1967 that I have read and the Detroit Almanac. What's left of several homes in the area that are burned down were demolished and turned into brownfields and blight. Over the past 40 years when black folks moved into those areas up to 1990s they made a ghetto out of it. More homes were disinvested and slumlord controlled. Then came White Boy Rick and the Best Friends 'murder for hire' Gang stump that area to ground. All the way to 7 Mile, Kelly Rd. and Gratiot Ave.

For the way neighborhood real estate grids built in Detroit from 1900 to present. Brightmoor was planned by D.H. Burnham to answer housing demands for low-income white families who were working in the automobile industries. Conant Gardens was planned by Shubael Conant who was a member of the Detroit Anti-Slavery Society in 1837. He owned the land and reserve it for black families. By the 1930s the FHA made homes for them and fewer black families began to live there. Brush Park was built since the 1820s for rich white families who are shipping, merchantile, stove and lumber moguls. Even Indian Village was built after 1900 by Albert Khan, Loius Kamper, William Stranton etc.. for rich white folks. Whatever Detroit neighborhood grids were built was meant to house certian race and class. Just like any other cities.

So is there any more discussion you want to bring up. I will answer it through research, not by he said-she said comments.

[p69rrh51]

Be well aware that the Pointe System is only meant for for those with higher standard of living [[ a.k.a. mainly rich white folks). Blacks, Jews, poor whites and others have been kept out.

When you say blockbusting started in the 1950s, yes. In Detroit the destruction of Black Bottom and Paradise Valley lead to self black middle and poor class to relocated to certain Detroit neighborhoods. Most black Detroiters move further to the west side via the ethnic Jewish communities. Coleman A. Young attacked Polish white poor and middle class folks by destroying Poletown for the GM main plant in 1980.

The Freeway [[ I-94) only destroyed certian connecting Detroit neighborhoods connecting Harper Rd. and its businesses strip up to Dickerson St. passing Chandler Park. The main demise Fairview, Jefferson, Alter Rd. is caused by the 1967 riots. That is according to the Detroit News Article of 1967 that I have read and the Detroit Almanac. What's left of several homes in the area that are burned down were demolished and turned into brownfields and blight. Over the past 40 years when black folks moved into those areas up to 1990s they made a ghetto out of it. More homes were disinvested and slumlord controlled. Then came White Boy Rick and the Best Friends 'murder for hire' Gang stump that area to ground. All the way to 7 Mile, Kelly Rd. and Gratiot Ave.

For the way neighborhood real estate grids built in Detroit from 1900 to present. Brightmoor was planned by D.H. Burnham to answer housing demands for low-income white families who were working in the automobile industries. Conant Gardens was planned by Shubael Conant who was a member of the Detroit Anti-Slavery Society in 1837. He owned the land and reserve it for black families. By the 1930s the FHA made homes for them and fewer black families began to live there. Brush Park was built since the 1820s for rich white families who are shipping, merchantile, stove and lumber moguls. Even Indian Village was built after 1900 by Albert Khan, Loius Kamper, William Stranton etc.. for rich white folks. Whatever Detroit neighborhood grids were built was meant to house certian race and class. Just like any other cities.

So is there any more discussion you want to bring up. I will answer it through research, not by he said-she said comments.

Actually there were Jewish families living in GP going back over a 100 years, but that is another discussion. I have never said the point system was right just pointing out your narrow view of it.

What I am wondering is what you find so wrong with wealthy/middle income desiring to live in neighborhoods geared for them. For the most part neighborhoods for the wealthy do not take up a large tract of the land in Detroit.

Indian Village was started in 1895 not 1900 and built by the Cook Farm Company not Kahn, Kamper, Stratton et. al., Although their designs do set IV above the crowd! And yes Kahn did build several spec homes in IV, some were for Cook, later homes were built by Kahn himself. Also when IV was first platted the area was outside of the city limits, which goes against your grid theory. Maybe you need to brush up a little bit on your research. For those desiring a little more knowlege on Brightmoor http://www.detroitmi.gov /LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=TTyW8L9HHqY%3d&tabid=309 6&mid=4357

Last no he-said/she-said here just my personal experiences with the subjects!

[Strong]

May pr69 you know what you're talking about

[p69rrh51]

May pr69 you know what you're talking about

l

Thx Strong! May I make a suggestion, start one thread for your varied subjects. You could meander wherever you wanted along with giving us updates on your project. I think everyone on here would check in just to see what you were doing on any given day. With the large number of threads you have started I think many loose interest trying to keep up with them. IM Lowell and see if they can be combined. As I suggested earlier a running update on your progress would be VERY popular on here.

[iheartthed]

Obviously our population continued to grow for another 20 years, but much of that was due to the physical size of the city growing and new housing being built there [[meaning it was not an intensification of established areas). 1928 and 1929 saw the completion of several of our historic skyscrapers, and signaled an end to the era of new buildings that saw only sporadic projects from that point forward.

What do you mean by intensification? Detroit's borders have been fixed where they are today since the mid-1920s, but the peak population was nearly double was it was by then... So the city obviously became a lot more dense post-Depression.

[GUSHI]

When my parents came in 68, he tells me the Poles gave him and other Eastern European immigrants a hard time for moving by hamtramck, they just wanted poles in the area, so blacks weren't the only one being discriminated against.

[davewindsor]

Think it through. The auto companies didn't need any true downtown offices. Detroit didn't have a stock exchange or a commodities exchange. Detroit banks were not large regional banks with the need for huge headquarters buildings and they did very little "investment banking" business. Even in its heyday, Detroit just didn't require so much office space downtown.

The buildings downtown had some suites of larger firms, but most of them were divided up into little offices for individual doctors, dentists, lawyers, and bookkeepers.

Think again.

Detroit had a stock exchange from 1907 to 1976 http://www.detroitstockexchange.com/dse_hist.htm

Thus, it had a lot of investment bankers on Griswold Street.

It also had many large regional banks. Dime Savings Bank built the Dime Building after they amalgamated a bunch of smaller banks and needed the space under one roof.

The Union Trust Company acquired a bunch of smaller banks and needed the space under one roof so they built the Guardian building to house the Guardian Detroit Union Group [[Henry Ford was it's largest depositer).

These buildings were built to house all their employees. What do you think all those employees did if it was not a large regional bank?

You have the National Bank Building, First Federal Michigan Bank [[1001 Woodward), Detroit Savings Bank [[Comerica Bank Building), and so on.

What killed downtown was the city's anti-business climate such as municipal corporate and personal income taxes imposed by Mayor Cavanaugh in the 60s and continues to persist [[why operate in the city when you can operate in the suburbs without them?), excessive city government regulation, the unions, etc. The Crowder documentary on Detroit offers an interesting explanation of government regulation effect on Detroit http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hhJ_49leBw

[Strong]

l

Thx Strong! May I make a suggestion, start one thread for your varied subjects. You could meander wherever you wanted along with giving us updates on your project. I think everyone on here would check in just to see what you were doing on any given day. With the large number of threads you have started I think many loose interest trying to keep up with them. IM Lowell and see if they can be combined. As I suggested earlier a running update on your progress would be VERY popular on here.

Thanks for the encouragement.

Let me say that I am a first time movie producer, however this will not be my last for I have other documentaries of various subjects on the drawing board and feature length movies of screen plays I wrote.

I have been working on The Great Detroit? It was-It is-It will be for 18 months now. I have shot 28 interviews with another 13 or so remaining. I'll cover some history but more so what's presently happening with our business, social services, education, religious, medical, recreational, arts, sports, and technology communities. And, have footage of Detroit's landscape. There have been a number of Detroit documentaries but none like this one, for its 100% positive.

The finances to cover the little remaining production cost is the only thing holding me back from completion. That's why I have www.indiegogo.com/thegreatdetroitdoc or www.strongdetroit.net where you can place your order for the Dvd or buy one of our patron ads so that your name will be listed among the film's credits and seen internationally.

Per your comment, I don't know if the Detroit yes community want many more of my documentary plugs, however I have a facebook page, www.facebook.com/thegreatdetroit where I constantly post the latest with the film. I invite you and others to Like it.

Again much thanks, and stay strong I will.

[Danny]

Actually there were Jewish families living in GP going back over a 100 years, but that is another discussion. I have never said the point system was right just pointing out your narrow view of it.

What I am wondering is what you find so wrong with wealthy/middle income desiring to live in neighborhoods geared for them. For the most part neighborhoods for the wealthy do not take up a large tract of the land in Detroit.

Indian Village was started in 1895 not 1900 and built by the Cook Farm Company not Kahn, Kamper, Stratton et. al., Although their designs do set IV above the crowd! And yes Kahn did build several spec homes in IV, some were for Cook, later homes were built by Kahn himself. Also when IV was first platted the area was outside of the city limits, which goes against your grid theory. Maybe you need to brush up a little bit on your research. For those desiring a little more knowlege on Brightmoor http://www.detroitmi.gov /LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=TTyW8L9HHqY%3d&tabid=309 6&mid=4357

Last no he-said/she-said here just my personal experiences with the subjects!

Yes Jewish families were in Grosse Pointe area 100 years ago. When the Pointe System went into an effect. The homes went to those who have a higher standard of living. Blacks, Jews, Poor Whites and others were kept out of those luxury dwellings.

When you respond to my comments about the day Detroit neighborhoods were made for certian class and race, you think that Detroit hoods were made for the weathly. You misunderstood my critique! I wrote the certian Detroit neighborhoods were developed for certian group or race and class. Brush Park, Indian Village for the rich, Brightmoor for the low working class.

About the Indian Village development Louis Kamper, C Howard Crane and Albert Khan made those homes for rich white families. The Cook property sold plots of the land to the automobile, pewbic tile and stove making, Waldorf institutional and financier barons at the time. After 1900 Indian Village construction begins.

Any more info you want to put in. I will keep on back up with resources.

[p69rrh51]

Yes Jewish families were in Grosse Pointe area 100 years ago. When the Pointe System went into an effect. The homes went to those who have a higher standard of living. Blacks, Jews, Poor Whites and others were kept out of those luxury dwellings.

When you respond to my comments about the day Detroit neighborhoods were made for certian class and race, you think that Detroit hoods were made for the weathly. You misunderstood my critique! I wrote the certian Detroit neighborhoods were developed for certian group or race and class. Brush Park, Indian Village for the rich, Brightmoor for the low working class.

About the Indian Village development Louis Kamper, C Howard Crane and Albert Khan made those homes for rich white families. The Cook property sold plots of the land to the automobile, pewbic tile and stove making, Waldorf institutional and financier barons at the time. After 1900 Indian Village construction begins.

Any more info you want to put in. I will keep on back up with resources.

Still wondering what you have against the well to do creating their own places to live?

The Waldorf was originally the Liggett School. Mary Chase Perry [[Pewabic Pottery) lived on East Grand Boulevard not Indian Village, And construction in Indian Village started in 1895 NOT 1900. Look at the enclosed images prepared for Indian Villlages listing on the national register. Interesting quite a few homes built before 1900. I guess you get your research skills updated.

[p69rrh51]

Just one of the many pre 1900 homes in Indian Village.

8335 East Jefferson built in 1897 Indian Village Histoirc District Detroit, MI.

[Danny]

Still wondering what you have against the well to do creating their own places to live?

The Waldorf was originally the Liggett School. Mary Chase Perry [[Pewabic Pottery) lived on East Grand Boulevard not Indian Village, And construction in Indian Village started in 1895 NOT 1900. Look at the enclosed images prepared for Indian Villlages listing on the national register. Interesting quite a few homes built before 1900. I guess you get your research skills updated.

But Mary Chase Perry have her Pewabic Pottery center On E. Jefferson where it stands today.

[p69rrh51]

[QUOTE=Danny;346983]But Mary Chase Perry have her Pewabic Pottery center On E. Jefferson where it stands today.[/QUOTE

The Pottery geographically is in East Village not Indian Village.