Great NY Times Article about Detroit's Downtown Turn Around

[DetroitPlanner]

That is what I remember too. And Kennedy Square smelled like a giant urinal. I do remember an Arby's [[I think) across from Kennedy Square that was kinda busy. But that area has come a LONG way. The pedestrian traffic still might be light, but it's not hardly worse than it was in the early 1990s.

Arby's was on the main floor of the Day's Inn [[now Holiday Inn). Hardees was across from Kennedy Square. There was also both a Wendy's and a Taco Bell close by on Michigan. The Old People's Outfitter's building had the Schnelli Deli & Otto's Crispy Corn.

We have lost a lot in the last 20 years too. Crowely's had a store in New Center, Boblo was still in operation, Silver's, Trapper's Alley, even the Ren Cen was a lot more livelier when it was not GM world.

[KJ5]

That Ham Heaven place in Kennedy Square was pretty cool. And even though it's still a ghost town at least Capitol Park isn't the open air bazaar of drugs, prostitution and stolen goods it used to be before the Rosa Parks Transit Center.

[DetBill]

Bham, the article does indeed address the fact that people are moving and living downtown and enjoying its amenties... I can attest to that myself,, I have lived downtown since 1989.. so I think I can qualify... there is a major injection of energy and people compared to prior years... and as for the comments on "normal" activities, I am downtown everyday I am here,, and trust me.. its a much busier place during the businessday,, after work hours and into the evening..and weekends are often extremely crowded during events,, as in any other city.,, the rush hour,, from my 17th floor window starts much earler,, ends much, much later and is very busy,,, My immediate neighborhood has seen a large influx of new residents in the last 6 months alone.. Suggest you spend some time here during normal hours every day,, as I and many others do and you should most certainly see the material difference I have experienced over the last 23 years.

[DetBill]

Thankyou Eric c.. I couldnt agree more with you as I , like you was here then, and in my early 30s... Downtown was a DUMP with few restaurants except for greektown,, and my lafayette neighborhood..and of course Joe Louis,,The riverfront was a mess. woodward,, dismal, the theater district not much except for the fox and the state,, and the ball parks area was a old, old warehouse area. There are so, so many more place today to go to one cant even start, and lots of people in them,, which was a stretch back then,,
I am amazed at some of the comments on here,, it seems by some who were very young or not here at all,,, You would have to be blind not to notice the difference today compared to then.. and its a major postive.. Trust us.

[hortonz]

Downtown Detroit 20 years ago was like downtown Windsor today,

[Eric_c]

Downtown Detroit 20 years ago was like downtown Windsor today,

Ridiculous.

[iheartthed]

Arby's was on the main floor of the Day's Inn [[now Holiday Inn). Hardees was across from Kennedy Square. There was also both a Wendy's and a Taco Bell close by on Michigan. The Old People's Outfitter's building had the Schnelli Deli & Otto's Crispy Corn.

Yeah, you're right. I would always get Arby's and Hardees mixed up when I was a tot.

We have lost a lot in the last 20 years too. Crowely's had a store in New Center, Boblo was still in operation, Silver's, Trapper's Alley, even the Ren Cen was a lot more livelier when it was not GM world.

Yeah, the RenCen had a lot more shops in there back in the 90s compared to today, but I still prefer what GM has done to open the building up to the Riverfront and Jefferson Ave. One of my relatives owned a shop in the RenCen during the 80s and 90s, and even then I was amazed that those shops in there could stay solvent while being in such an isolated location.

[401don]

This NY Times article was in today's Toronto Star print edition. This season I heard several callers to Toronto's sports radio stations discussing how great their trip to Comerica Park was and how nice the park is compared to the Rogers Centre, or Concrete Convertible, as it's known in Toronto.

[Danny]

Take that New York City! Take that Yankees!

[illwill]

I personally liked the old downtown in the mid-70's to late80's. The vibe was like no other place in the country at that time.Unfortunately, the city was free-falling at that time and we had no idea ofwhat was yet to come. The streets were packed, street vendors on every corner,i remember undercover boys everywhere making undercover drug buys and thenthrowing the dealers on the ground etc. It was a wild time. Lots ofunapologetic emotions in those days.

A great city today would be to have a mix of then and now.The sketchy and the progressive mix. I agree with Bham that the stores backthen catered to the downtown demographic at that time and those stores shouldstill exist [[wigs, shoes, hats etc...). Downtown Chicago has plenty of wigshops, gator selling shoe stores, pawn shops etc...

Detroit should be both progressive and old school.

[illwill]

I personally liked the old downtown in the mid-70's to late80's. The vibe was like no other place in the country at that time.Unfortunately, the city was free-falling at that time and we had no idea ofwhat was yet to come. The streets were packed, street vendors on every corner,i remember undercover boys everywhere making undercover drug buys and thenthrowing the dealers on the ground etc. It was a wild time. Lots ofunapologetic emotions in those days.

A great city today would be to have a mix of then and now.The sketchy and the progressive mix. I agree with Bham that the stores backthen catered to the downtown demographic at that time and those stores shouldstill exist [[wigs, shoes, hats etc...). Downtown Chicago has plenty of wigshops, gator selling shoe stores, pawn shops etc...

Detroit should be both progressive and old school.

By the way, I don't blame the people who are moving into the city but I haver to blame the leaders over the past couple of decades who didn't know how to cater to the changing times. All big cities had difficulties adjusting to the loss of manufacturing and out sourcing of jobs but Detroit had crooked, selfish and unfriendly business leaders who could care less if the city folded. I for one threw in the towel because the business climate was all but impossible to deal with. In my case, wealthy real estate speculators played a big part in this mess. When the times were right, i took my money to the burbs because the city was just sitting around waiting for 2012 to role around.

[Gistok]

Well hate to burst everyone's bubble, but while downtown may be better off... the other 90% of the city is NOT. My late mother's neighbor [[near Balduck Park on the far east side) got $95K for her 3 bedroom house back in 1998... when mom passed away and we sold her 4 bedroom house in 2011... we got just $15K. So is Detroit a better place... that depends....

[iheartthed]

Well hate to burst everyone's bubble, but while downtown may be better off... the other 90% of the city is NOT. My late mother's neighbor [[near Balduck Park on the far east side) got $95K for her 3 bedroom house back in 1998... when mom passed away and we sold her 4 bedroom house in 2011... we got just $15K. So is Detroit a better place... that depends....

The rest of the city absolutely has deterioted relative to the 1990s... But we were talking specifically about downtown.

But your mom's house sold for $15K for reasons that were not directly under control of the city leadership... Unlike cleaning up downtown so that the public squares don't constantly smell like a urinal.

[downtownguy]

In 1993, Downtown Detroit was DEAD. The stores on Woodward were all low-end dives and the best buildings were worn out. Winkleman's was the last 'name' to disappear.

There was no riverwalk. There were no boat tours.

No, there was no finished Riverwalk, but I used to walk the riverfront every Sunday morning before settling in with the paper for breakfast someplace downtown. Diamond Jack has been around at least that long, and there was also the Star of Detroit operating for a few years.

I moved downtown in 1981. I occupied an office in the David Whitney Building in the mid 80s. I ran a business in a storefront on Woodward near Grand Circus Park from 1988-1991. During that time I read William H. Whyte's, "City: Rediscovering the Center" and was amazed at how many of Whyte's observations of New York City streetlife existed in Detroit, albeit on a different scale and often in a unique way.

When I was on Woodward, I was introduced to a white [[as am I) Detroit television news anchor at a party. I'll not name him, but he was very cordial and took an interest in the business I operated. He also lamented how I was on such a desolate stretch of Woodward. I was shocked. He didn't have a clue. As Bham points out, shopping existed on Woodward, but it catered to it's market: Detroiters. I lectured the news anchor on this point and invited him to come down and stand with me on Woodward on any Saturday and he would see as much activity as he would have found in any mall. Around the same time, I met an executive with Sibley's Shoes and he told me the Grand Circus Park store was the busiest free standing store in the chain [[mall stores, as you would expect, were busier.) The owner of Tall-Eez shoes, a staple on Woodward for years, told me how he had opened a store at the still, reasonably upscale Northland, but it never attained the business of the downtown store. I had also been told that Winkelman's and Marianne's stores were also among the busiest of their free standing stores.

Even though Hudson's pulled out of downtown in the 80s, new residential was sprouting up: Trolley, Riverfront, Millender, Harbortown, River Place, etc. There was a small, under-the-radar loft movement [[I moved into one, on Woodward actually). Greektown actually had several Greek restaurants back then, and it was vibrant, yet accessible, as the casino had not yet come to dominate the area. Rivertown was a close second to Greektown for nightlife with restaurants, clubs and saloons.

The renovated Fox Theatre opened in 1988 and the State Theatre become Clubland. There was almost constant activity around both theatres nearly every weekend and many weeknights, and the Fox continued to be the catalyst for many years. The frequency of shows at the Fox is a shadow of that today.

My point is that ever since Cadillac hopped out of les détroits 311 years ago, our city has been evolving. I had to convince nearly every one of my Northern European brothers and sisters that I was not crazy to choose to live in Detroit back then, and I still have to today more than I'd like. But things have changed a lot since I first moved downtown. Better? Yes. Worse? That, too. One, two, ten decades ago, Detroit had more apples, now it has more oranges. Does that mean it's better? It's all subjective.

For what it's worth, I'm excited for all the recent positive changes, and I'll probably be here until the day I die. And I do hear more positive responses when I tell people where I live than when I first moved downtown. But an entire generation has left the planet since then, and I always felt my generation would never get it. They had too much baggage from the profound changes the city went through in the 60s and 70s. I hope and pray the current generation that has embraced this great, old, historic city in recent years will continue to embrace it as it continues to evolve. For better and for worse.

[Eric_c]

Thread closed.

[jaytheory]

I could do the exact.........Is it better to have low end retail in run-down buildings serving Detroiters, or nice, empty buildings looking pretty for suburban visitors and 20-something urbanists?

As a Native Detroit and 20 something professional, yes the latter is better. For any Detroiter, it makes no sense for a WIG shop to be what should be the most prosperous retail market in the state. Detroit needs pretty building that sell rpetty things to people with disposable income. If the center of the city loks bad, then why would the rest of it be nice?

[rjlj]

Exactly what was the "etc." in this statement?

"Even though Hudson's pulled out of downtown in the 80s, new residential was sprouting up: Trolley, Riverfront, Millender, Harbortown, River Place, etc."

And what was this movement?

"There was a small, under-the-radar loft movement [[I moved into one, on Woodward actually)."

No, there was no finished Riverwalk, but I used to walk the riverfront every Sunday morning before settling in with the paper for breakfast someplace downtown. Diamond Jack has been around at least that long, and there was also the Star of Detroit operating for a few years.

I moved downtown in 1981. I occupied an office in the David Whitney Building in the mid 80s. I ran a business in a storefront on Woodward near Grand Circus Park from 1988-1991. During that time I read William H. Whyte's, "City: Rediscovering the Center" and was amazed at how many of Whyte's observations of New York City streetlife existed in Detroit, albeit on a different scale and often in a unique way.

When I was on Woodward, I was introduced to a white [[as am I) Detroit television news anchor at a party. I'll not name him, but he was very cordial and took an interest in the business I operated. He also lamented how I was on such a desolate stretch of Woodward. I was shocked. He didn't have a clue. As Bham points out, shopping existed on Woodward, but it catered to it's market: Detroiters. I lectured the news anchor on this point and invited him to come down and stand with me on Woodward on any Saturday and he would see as much activity as he would have found in any mall. Around the same time, I met an executive with Sibley's Shoes and he told me the Grand Circus Park store was the busiest free standing store in the chain [[mall stores, as you would expect, were busier.) The owner of Tall-Eez shoes, a staple on Woodward for years, told me how he had opened a store at the still, reasonably upscale Northland, but it never attained the business of the downtown store. I had also been told that Winkelman's and Marianne's stores were also among the busiest of their free standing stores.

Even though Hudson's pulled out of downtown in the 80s, new residential was sprouting up: Trolley, Riverfront, Millender, Harbortown, River Place, etc. There was a small, under-the-radar loft movement [[I moved into one, on Woodward actually). Greektown actually had several Greek restaurants back then, and it was vibrant, yet accessible, as the casino had not yet come to dominate the area. Rivertown was a close second to Greektown for nightlife with restaurants, clubs and saloons.

The renovated Fox Theatre opened in 1988 and the State Theatre become Clubland. There was almost constant activity around both theatres nearly every weekend and many weeknights, and the Fox continued to be the catalyst for many years. The frequency of shows at the Fox is a shadow of that today.

My point is that ever since Cadillac hopped out of les détroits 311 years ago, our city has been evolving. I had to convince nearly every one of my Northern European brothers and sisters that I was not crazy to choose to live in Detroit back then, and I still have to today more than I'd like. But things have changed a lot since I first moved downtown. Better? Yes. Worse? That, too. One, two, ten decades ago, Detroit had more apples, now it has more oranges. Does that mean it's better? It's all subjective.

For what it's worth, I'm excited for all the recent positive changes, and I'll probably be here until the day I die. And I do hear more positive responses when I tell people where I live than when I first moved downtown. But an entire generation has left the planet since then, and I always felt my generation would never get it. They had too much baggage from the profound changes the city went through in the 60s and 70s. I hope and pray the current generation that has embraced this great, old, historic city in recent years will continue to embrace it as it continues to evolve. For better and for worse.

[corktownyuppie]

As a Native Detroit and 20 something professional, yes the latter is better. For any Detroiter, it makes no sense for a WIG shop to be what should be the most prosperous retail market in the state. Detroit needs pretty building that sell rpetty things to people with disposable income. If the center of the city loks bad, then why would the rest of it be nice?

What is going on in the subtext of this thread is a clash between two opposing visions of downtown Detroit. One view is that Downtown Detroit -- while under the governance of Detroit municipal leaders -- is really the "capital city" of the entire Tri-County [[Quad-county, including Washtenaw?) area. Boasting some of the most beautiful architecture in the state, nationally renowned cultural organizations, home to one of the state's 3 research universities, guardian of an international border...downtown Detroit is really the front door representing all of southeast Michigan.

In that vision, Downtown Detroit serves as the home for the cultural, governmental, and commercial elite. It draws tourists from not just the city or even the region...rather the state or even the country. It acts as an ambassador to other areas of the country to woo organizations and corporations to house their centers of operation in SE Michigan. It acts as an incubator of new ideas in politics, design, business, music, fashion. As a hub of creativity, it attracts top talent -- not just from business and science, but in music and the arts -- from universities and companies all over.

It truly is a world class city, and the people in it represent the brightest and best that Michigan has to offer.

The other vision is that Downtown Detroit is the "capital city" of Detroit, which is a dying city that was designed for a different time and under a different set of economic rules. It is a cultural and economic center of a working class city and a large black middle class population.

The economics of this country have changed over the last 50 years. Yes, we lost many jobs to Mexico...and then eventually to China. But even moreso, we lost jobs to technology, robotics, and automation. We've also lost a lot of middle class black families to Harper Woods, Southfield, Royal Oak, even Canton.

In my opinion, the two different visions for the "greatness" of Downtown Detroit are rooted in two different perspectives: The Past vs. The Future. And, in my opinion, the one that will eventually win out will not have room for a wig store in its high-rent commercial districts.

Lastly, I sense that much of the black middle class fears that they will somehow lose out in this transformation.

I believe that those fears are valid but will prove to be untrue. I think what will likely come true is that "Black Detroit" will lose out in the transformation. But in my time living here, I've seen most of the successful professional black peers from my high school move out to Southfield and Farmington Hills. There will be plenty of room for successful, educated blacks in the new Downtown Detroit...and I'm starting to see an increased interest in migration back to the city, especially downtown and midtown, from blacks that had moved out and want to come back.

A city's core cannot exist without wealth and capital. Once the transformation of downtown garners real sustainability, that inflow of capital will help fund a middle-class economic engine once again.

[canuck]

I think the black middle class has already paid a heavy price in lost property valuation among other things. I hope the devaluation can help fuel the kind of rebirth you are expecting corktownyuppie.

[corktownyuppie]

I think the black middle class has already paid a heavy price in lost property valuation among other things. I hope the devaluation can help fuel the kind of rebirth you are expecting corktownyuppie.

Honestly, much of black middle class moved out Detroit years ago. The city's rebirth is not going to come from the middle class. It's going to come from the educated [[white, black, and other) class and the economic engine they bring with them.

[iheartthed]

Honestly, much of black middle class moved out Detroit years ago.

You should rethink that statement. Makes you sound a bit out of touch.

[corktownyuppie]

You should rethink that statement. Makes you sound a bit out of touch.

This is from an article that's two years old, talking about the out-migration of the Black middle class from Detroit

http://online.wsj.com/article_email/...zEwNDcyWj.html

At that time, we had lost 150,000 since 2000. Fast forward 2 2 years, and we've now experienced a net loss of 200,000 people since 2000. 40% of the residence state they wish to move out in the next 5 years.

These demographic shifts and migration patterns are going to very profound effects on the political make-up of the city and the suburbs.

The future of Detroit is of a smaller, more tightly compacted, population. Over the next 30 years it will trend toward the educated class, especially as Wayne State shifts its focus toward becoming more renowned for its research mission and as the 55-75 year old unskilled/low-skilled dwindle due to age.

[downtownguy]

Exactly what was the "etc." in this statement?

"Even though Hudson's pulled out of downtown in the 80s, new residential was sprouting up: Trolley, Riverfront, Millender, Harbortown, River Place, etc."

And what was this movement?

"There was a small, under-the-radar loft movement [[I moved into one, on Woodward actually)."

The "etc." was meant to cover anything my mind failed to remember after more than 20 years, but since you ask, I would also add several senior apartment buildings converted from old office buildings on Washington Blvd and Griswold and while not downtown, also some new housing further up Woodward in the New Center, and The Lofts on Jefferson that were more apartments than lofts.

Specifically, these are the lofts I remember that came about in the era: The Atlas Building on Gratiot, The Merchants Building at Grand River and Broadway, One John R [[at Woodward--where I lived), 2000 Brooklyn [[in Corktown) the "Blue Building" at Grand River and Griswold and another small building south on Griswold next to where McDonald's used to be, a single building that was converted into lofts in Rivertown somewhere near the Rhinoceros, and Rocky Lofts in Eastern Market. Also, this was when Dennis Keffalinos began to build his empire of low-end lofts starting with the one's above Niki's in Greektown, 1300 W Lafayette, the Cary Building, and I'm sure some others that slip my mind.