Great NY Times Article about Detroit's Downtown Turn Around

[DetBill]

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/19/sp...tml?ref=sports

Great Article about Downtown Detroit.. who would have thought even a couple of years ago

[Bham1982]

The article is great press, but doesn't really say anything about downtown's alleged turnaround.

Obviously downtown Detroit will be busy when a professional sports team has a sold-out home game in a championship series. The same would be true if the team were in Auburn Hills, East St. Louis, or South Timbuktu.

It doesn't really speak to the relative health of the downtown. It just means that there are a few restaurants, bars and parking lot owners that make a little more money.

To look at an area's relative health, I would look at the "normal" activity levels, not activity levels during special events. You don't judge Ann Arbor by the Art Fair weekend or Indianapolis by Super Bowl weekend.

[DetBill]

Bham, the article does indeed address the fact that people are moving and living downtown and enjoying its amenties... I can attest to that myself,, I have lived downtown since 1989.. so I think I can qualify... there is a major injection of energy and people compared to prior years... and as for the comments on "normal" activities, I am downtown everyday I am here,, and trust me.. its a much busier place during the businessday,, after work hours and into the evening..and weekends are often extremely crowded during events,, as in any other city.,, the rush hour,, from my 17th floor window starts much earler,, ends much, much later and is very busy,,, My immediate neighborhood has seen a large influx of new residents in the last 6 months alone.. Suggest you spend some time here during normal hours every day,, as I and many others do and you should most certainly see the material difference I have experienced over the last 23 years.

[401don]

The author is correct in that many of us remember how bad downtown looked and how empty it was twenty years ago. I think the renovation of the Woodward storefronts and construction of Campus Martius really started the physical transformation. I also think the actual influx in residents is being greatly exaggerated to this point. The demand is there but until we get enough units to support another 5,000 downtown residents and support some retail we won't see the "normal" activity levels that exist in every other city. It seems like it's taking forever to many of us but the influx of residents is really still in its infancy.

[Bham1982]

The author is correct in that many of us remember how bad downtown looked and how empty it was twenty years ago.

I was just a little kid, but I though downtown was a lot busier 20 years ago. I remember Woodward still had a lot of retail and there was significant retail and pedestrian activity in the blocks between Woodward and Washington.

Granted, it was mostly low-end stuff, but it was real. Downtown, to me, seems much quieter nowadays, except for special event days. It looks nicer too, with renovated streetscape and less abandoned buildings, but also more parking lots and empty storefronts.

[iheartthed]

I was just a little kid, but I though downtown was a lot busier 20 years ago. I remember Woodward still had a lot of retail and there was significant retail and pedestrian activity in the blocks between Woodward and Washington.

Granted, it was mostly low-end stuff, but it was real. Downtown, to me, seems much quieter nowadays, except for special event days. It looks nicer too, with renovated streetscape and less abandoned buildings, but also more parking lots and empty storefronts.

I was a kid too, but I remember downtown as being pretty dead by the early 1990s. There was more pedestrian activity outside of downtown than downtown itself. The exception is Greektown, which seemed a lot bigger back then and probably has never hurted for pedestrian traffic...

[401don]

I was just a little kid, but I though downtown was a lot busier 20 years ago. I remember Woodward still had a lot of retail and there was significant retail and pedestrian activity in the blocks between Woodward and Washington.

Granted, it was mostly low-end stuff, but it was real. Downtown, to me, seems much quieter nowadays, except for special event days. It looks nicer too, with renovated streetscape and less abandoned buildings, but also more parking lots and empty storefronts.

You're right. It was probably closer to 15 years ago. Winkelman's and Sibley Shoes seemed to be the last chain store holdouts. I remember several tunnel bus trips back from Tiger Stadium after night games with tons of debris blowing down a totally deserted Woodward.

[DetroitPlanner]

You're right. It was probably closer to 15 years ago. Winkelman's and Sibley Shoes seemed to be the last chain store holdouts. I remember several tunnel bus trips back from Tiger Stadium after night games with tons of debris blowing down a totally deserted Woodward.

You could probably add Radio Shack, Payleyss Shoes, H & H, and Foot Locker to that list. They were still around then. The last really big stores shut down in the late 1980's; those Being McCrory's and Pam's. McCrory's took over either Kressgee or Woolworths. Pam was independant.

[Eric_c]

Other memories...abandoned Madison Theater with a nasty adult bookstore in the Broadway retail spaces, no such thing as Park Ave, giant, looming Hudson's, Statler and Lafayette Buildings, no Compuware, [[empty Kern AND Crowley blocks). Everything was far less connected. Capitol Park was even WORSE with no future plans! Lol! God, what a place.

I fell in love and still am!

[MidTownMs]

You're right. It was probably closer to 15 years ago. Winkelman's and Sibley Shoes seemed to be the last chain store holdouts. I remember several tunnel bus trips back from Tiger Stadium after night games with tons of debris blowing down a totally deserted Woodward.

Is the debris to which you refer tumbleweed?

[Eric_c]

In 1993, Downtown Detroit was DEAD. The stores on Woodward were all low-end dives and the best buildings were worn out. Winkleman's was the last 'name' to disappear.

There was no riverwalk. There were no boat tours. The Ren Cen was a flagging mess. Campus Martius was a massive, empty intersection. Kennedy Square was. Where the bums slept. Cadillac Square was a dirty, half-assed bus terminal. Weeds to my knees chocked Monroe, Farmer, Library, etc. Wooden telephone poles anchored into asphalt fill on the sidewalks were all over. There was no Detroit Opera House, no stadia [[abandoned builings sat there), no casinos, no DTE plaza. There was no Book-Cadillac, no Fort Shelby, no Hilton Gardens, no Holiday Inn. Washington Boulevard was a rotting brick pedestrian plaza. The Broderick was closed but for the Flaming Embers and even it was just a mess. The Whitney Building was 90% empty and closed shortly thereafter. The streetscapes were worn out, beat up and ugly. Light fixtures and traffic signals were all primer gray or rust brown. Trash was everywhere. There were barely any trash cans. There was no Clean Downtown.

I can go on and on.

If you don't KNOW Downtown Detroit is in considerably better, busier shape now than 20 years ago, you either weren't here at that time or haven't been here since. The whole Jefferson corridor all the way out to Waterworks Park looks considerably cleaner and has a ton of places that weren't even there in '93. Same with Michigan and Woodward.

I know. I was here then and I'm still here now! Rant over.

[drjeff]

In 1993, Downtown Detroit was DEAD. The stores on Woodward were all low-end dives and the best buildings were worn out. Winkleman's was the last 'name' to disappear.

There was no riverwalk. There were no boat tours. The Ren Cen was a flagging mess. Campus Martius was a massive, empty intersection. Kennedy Square was. Where the bums slept. Cadillac Square was a dirty, half-assed bus terminal. Weeds to my knees chocked Monroe, Farmer, Library, etc. Wooden telephone poles anchored into asphalt fill on the sidewalks were all over. There was no Detroit Opera House, no stadia [[abandoned builings sat there), no casinos, no DTE plaza. There was no Book-Cadillac, no Fort Shelby, no Hilton Gardens, no Holiday Inn. Washington Boulevard was a rotting brick pedestrian plaza. The Broderick was closed but for the Flaming Embers and even it was just a mess. The Whitney Building was 90% empty and closed shortly thereafter. The streetscapes were worn out, beat up and ugly. Light fixtures and traffic signals were all primer gray or rust brown. Trash was everywhere. There were barely any trash cans. There was no Clean Downtown.

I can go on and on.

If you don't KNOW Downtown Detroit is in considerably better, busier shape now than 20 years ago, you either weren't here at that time or haven't been here since. The whole Jefferson corridor all the way out to Waterworks Park looks considerably cleaner and has a ton of places that weren't even there in '93. Same with Michigan and Woodward.

I know. I was here then and I'm still here now! Rant over.

I agree 100%. Even in 1998 downtown was far, far worse than it is now. There was absolutely no reason to go downtown. It's actually incredible how much things have changed for the better in that time.

[iheartthed]

In 1993, Downtown Detroit was DEAD. The stores on Woodward were all low-end dives and the best buildings were worn out. Winkleman's was the last 'name' to disappear.

There was no riverwalk. There were no boat tours. The Ren Cen was a flagging mess. Campus Martius was a massive, empty intersection. Kennedy Square was. Where the bums slept. Cadillac Square was a dirty, half-assed bus terminal. Weeds to my knees chocked Monroe, Farmer, Library, etc. Wooden telephone poles anchored into asphalt fill on the sidewalks were all over. There was no Detroit Opera House, no stadia [[abandoned builings sat there), no casinos, no DTE plaza. There was no Book-Cadillac, no Fort Shelby, no Hilton Gardens, no Holiday Inn. Washington Boulevard was a rotting brick pedestrian plaza. The Broderick was closed but for the Flaming Embers and even it was just a mess. The Whitney Building was 90% empty and closed shortly thereafter. The streetscapes were worn out, beat up and ugly. Light fixtures and traffic signals were all primer gray or rust brown. Trash was everywhere. There were barely any trash cans. There was no Clean Downtown.

I can go on and on.

If you don't KNOW Downtown Detroit is in considerably better, busier shape now than 20 years ago, you either weren't here at that time or haven't been here since. The whole Jefferson corridor all the way out to Waterworks Park looks considerably cleaner and has a ton of places that weren't even there in '93. Same with Michigan and Woodward.

I know. I was here then and I'm still here now! Rant over.

That is what I remember too. And Kennedy Square smelled like a giant urinal. I do remember an Arby's [[I think) across from Kennedy Square that was kinda busy. But that area has come a LONG way. The pedestrian traffic still might be light, but it's not hardly worse than it was in the early 1990s.

[Eric_c]

B'ham - as I wrote my list, I was also mentally ticking off buildings and establishments nearby the areas. I described and the fact is, the closings are fewer. Add Midtown to the mix and it's off the charts better compared to then. As someone who actually lives right here, I haven't seen any of these "diminishments" hamper the continued evolution.

[Eric_c]

You're remembering a 'busy' Downtown because you were ten years old coming into the city for events. Ever see all the lemmings sitting in line for sporting events? They're the same ones thinking, "It's too busy 'down' here!"

Take my word for it, kiddo. We're a lot farther ahead now.

[cmubryan]

Let's not forget the red metal playground-like structure that spanned Washington Blvd with it's frosted flashing bubble lights! Towards the end of it's tenure, the bulbs weren't being replaced, so half the lights flashed and others were out-looked real classy. That, combined with the two abandoned anchors-Detroit Hilton [[Statler) to the north and Book Cadillac to the South made Washington Blvd look the worst of them all. The vacant Days Inn [[now Holiday Inn Express) with its Heaven on Earth Inn sign plastered over the former Days Inn sign was a bonus as well.

Nah-we haven't made much progress downtown [[sarcastic).

[DetroitPlanner]

That is what I remember too. And Kennedy Square smelled like a giant urinal. I do remember an Arby's [[I think) across from Kennedy Square that was kinda busy. But that area has come a LONG way. The pedestrian traffic still might be light, but it's not hardly worse than it was in the early 1990s.

Arby's was on the main floor of the Day's Inn [[now Holiday Inn). Hardees was across from Kennedy Square. There was also both a Wendy's and a Taco Bell close by on Michigan. The Old People's Outfitter's building had the Schnelli Deli & Otto's Crispy Corn.

We have lost a lot in the last 20 years too. Crowely's had a store in New Center, Boblo was still in operation, Silver's, Trapper's Alley, even the Ren Cen was a lot more livelier when it was not GM world.

[KJ5]

That Ham Heaven place in Kennedy Square was pretty cool. And even though it's still a ghost town at least Capitol Park isn't the open air bazaar of drugs, prostitution and stolen goods it used to be before the Rosa Parks Transit Center.

[iheartthed]

Arby's was on the main floor of the Day's Inn [[now Holiday Inn). Hardees was across from Kennedy Square. There was also both a Wendy's and a Taco Bell close by on Michigan. The Old People's Outfitter's building had the Schnelli Deli & Otto's Crispy Corn.

Yeah, you're right. I would always get Arby's and Hardees mixed up when I was a tot.

We have lost a lot in the last 20 years too. Crowely's had a store in New Center, Boblo was still in operation, Silver's, Trapper's Alley, even the Ren Cen was a lot more livelier when it was not GM world.

Yeah, the RenCen had a lot more shops in there back in the 90s compared to today, but I still prefer what GM has done to open the building up to the Riverfront and Jefferson Ave. One of my relatives owned a shop in the RenCen during the 80s and 90s, and even then I was amazed that those shops in there could stay solvent while being in such an isolated location.

[Bham1982]

In 1993, Downtown Detroit was DEAD. The stores on Woodward were all low-end dives and the best buildings were worn out. Winkleman's was the last 'name' to disappear.

There was no riverwalk. There were no boat tours. The Ren Cen was a flagging mess. Campus Martius was a massive, empty intersection. Kennedy Square was. Where the bums slept. Cadillac Square was a dirty, half-assed bus terminal. Weeds to my knees chocked Monroe, Farmer, Library, etc. Wooden telephone poles anchored into asphalt fill on the sidewalks were all over. There was no Detroit Opera House, no stadia [[abandoned builings sat there), no casinos, no DTE plaza. There was no Book-Cadillac, no Fort Shelby, no Hilton Gardens, no Holiday Inn. Washington Boulevard was a rotting brick pedestrian plaza. The Broderick was closed but for the Flaming Embers and even it was just a mess. The Whitney Building was 90% empty and closed shortly thereafter. The streetscapes were worn out, beat up and ugly. Light fixtures and traffic signals were all primer gray or rust brown. Trash was everywhere. There were barely any trash cans. There was no Clean Downtown.

I can go on and on.

If you don't KNOW Downtown Detroit is in considerably better, busier shape now than 20 years ago, you either weren't here at that time or haven't been here since. The whole Jefferson corridor all the way out to Waterworks Park looks considerably cleaner and has a ton of places that weren't even there in '93. Same with Michigan and Woodward.

I know. I was here then and I'm still here now! Rant over.

I could do the exact same rant right now, and mention all the things that were downtown back then, and aren't there now.

Many major law firms left, some hotels closed, all the retail closed, Greektown and Bricktown are shells of the past, the financial district is diminished, there are more parking lots than ever, and fewer buildings than ever.

The positive things that have happened are almost 100% relocations from other parts of Detroit [[GM, Tigers, etc.) or heavily subsidized projects [[Book Cadillac, Broderick, etc.).

I think your first paragraph speaks to the biggest divergence in opinion. You acknowledge that there was retail on Woodward, but it was "low end dives" [[in other words, beauty shops, wig shops, shoe stores and other services for Detroiters), so doesn't "count", in your mind.

I agree that Woodward is much, much nicer looking, because of all the building renovations. But there's nothing really there, at least not yet. The retail is mostly empty, and the few businesses that have opened, while certainly not "low end dives", haven't shown much success.

Is it better to have low end retail in run-down buildings serving Detroiters, or nice, empty buildings looking pretty for suburban visitors and 20-something urbanists?

[jaytheory]

I could do the exact.........Is it better to have low end retail in run-down buildings serving Detroiters, or nice, empty buildings looking pretty for suburban visitors and 20-something urbanists?

As a Native Detroit and 20 something professional, yes the latter is better. For any Detroiter, it makes no sense for a WIG shop to be what should be the most prosperous retail market in the state. Detroit needs pretty building that sell rpetty things to people with disposable income. If the center of the city loks bad, then why would the rest of it be nice?

[corktownyuppie]

As a Native Detroit and 20 something professional, yes the latter is better. For any Detroiter, it makes no sense for a WIG shop to be what should be the most prosperous retail market in the state. Detroit needs pretty building that sell rpetty things to people with disposable income. If the center of the city loks bad, then why would the rest of it be nice?

What is going on in the subtext of this thread is a clash between two opposing visions of downtown Detroit. One view is that Downtown Detroit -- while under the governance of Detroit municipal leaders -- is really the "capital city" of the entire Tri-County [[Quad-county, including Washtenaw?) area. Boasting some of the most beautiful architecture in the state, nationally renowned cultural organizations, home to one of the state's 3 research universities, guardian of an international border...downtown Detroit is really the front door representing all of southeast Michigan.

In that vision, Downtown Detroit serves as the home for the cultural, governmental, and commercial elite. It draws tourists from not just the city or even the region...rather the state or even the country. It acts as an ambassador to other areas of the country to woo organizations and corporations to house their centers of operation in SE Michigan. It acts as an incubator of new ideas in politics, design, business, music, fashion. As a hub of creativity, it attracts top talent -- not just from business and science, but in music and the arts -- from universities and companies all over.

It truly is a world class city, and the people in it represent the brightest and best that Michigan has to offer.

The other vision is that Downtown Detroit is the "capital city" of Detroit, which is a dying city that was designed for a different time and under a different set of economic rules. It is a cultural and economic center of a working class city and a large black middle class population.

The economics of this country have changed over the last 50 years. Yes, we lost many jobs to Mexico...and then eventually to China. But even moreso, we lost jobs to technology, robotics, and automation. We've also lost a lot of middle class black families to Harper Woods, Southfield, Royal Oak, even Canton.

In my opinion, the two different visions for the "greatness" of Downtown Detroit are rooted in two different perspectives: The Past vs. The Future. And, in my opinion, the one that will eventually win out will not have room for a wig store in its high-rent commercial districts.

Lastly, I sense that much of the black middle class fears that they will somehow lose out in this transformation.

I believe that those fears are valid but will prove to be untrue. I think what will likely come true is that "Black Detroit" will lose out in the transformation. But in my time living here, I've seen most of the successful professional black peers from my high school move out to Southfield and Farmington Hills. There will be plenty of room for successful, educated blacks in the new Downtown Detroit...and I'm starting to see an increased interest in migration back to the city, especially downtown and midtown, from blacks that had moved out and want to come back.

A city's core cannot exist without wealth and capital. Once the transformation of downtown garners real sustainability, that inflow of capital will help fund a middle-class economic engine once again.

[DetBill]

Thankyou Eric c.. I couldnt agree more with you as I , like you was here then, and in my early 30s... Downtown was a DUMP with few restaurants except for greektown,, and my lafayette neighborhood..and of course Joe Louis,,The riverfront was a mess. woodward,, dismal, the theater district not much except for the fox and the state,, and the ball parks area was a old, old warehouse area. There are so, so many more place today to go to one cant even start, and lots of people in them,, which was a stretch back then,,
I am amazed at some of the comments on here,, it seems by some who were very young or not here at all,,, You would have to be blind not to notice the difference today compared to then.. and its a major postive.. Trust us.

[downtownguy]

In 1993, Downtown Detroit was DEAD. The stores on Woodward were all low-end dives and the best buildings were worn out. Winkleman's was the last 'name' to disappear.

There was no riverwalk. There were no boat tours.

No, there was no finished Riverwalk, but I used to walk the riverfront every Sunday morning before settling in with the paper for breakfast someplace downtown. Diamond Jack has been around at least that long, and there was also the Star of Detroit operating for a few years.

I moved downtown in 1981. I occupied an office in the David Whitney Building in the mid 80s. I ran a business in a storefront on Woodward near Grand Circus Park from 1988-1991. During that time I read William H. Whyte's, "City: Rediscovering the Center" and was amazed at how many of Whyte's observations of New York City streetlife existed in Detroit, albeit on a different scale and often in a unique way.

When I was on Woodward, I was introduced to a white [[as am I) Detroit television news anchor at a party. I'll not name him, but he was very cordial and took an interest in the business I operated. He also lamented how I was on such a desolate stretch of Woodward. I was shocked. He didn't have a clue. As Bham points out, shopping existed on Woodward, but it catered to it's market: Detroiters. I lectured the news anchor on this point and invited him to come down and stand with me on Woodward on any Saturday and he would see as much activity as he would have found in any mall. Around the same time, I met an executive with Sibley's Shoes and he told me the Grand Circus Park store was the busiest free standing store in the chain [[mall stores, as you would expect, were busier.) The owner of Tall-Eez shoes, a staple on Woodward for years, told me how he had opened a store at the still, reasonably upscale Northland, but it never attained the business of the downtown store. I had also been told that Winkelman's and Marianne's stores were also among the busiest of their free standing stores.

Even though Hudson's pulled out of downtown in the 80s, new residential was sprouting up: Trolley, Riverfront, Millender, Harbortown, River Place, etc. There was a small, under-the-radar loft movement [[I moved into one, on Woodward actually). Greektown actually had several Greek restaurants back then, and it was vibrant, yet accessible, as the casino had not yet come to dominate the area. Rivertown was a close second to Greektown for nightlife with restaurants, clubs and saloons.

The renovated Fox Theatre opened in 1988 and the State Theatre become Clubland. There was almost constant activity around both theatres nearly every weekend and many weeknights, and the Fox continued to be the catalyst for many years. The frequency of shows at the Fox is a shadow of that today.

My point is that ever since Cadillac hopped out of les détroits 311 years ago, our city has been evolving. I had to convince nearly every one of my Northern European brothers and sisters that I was not crazy to choose to live in Detroit back then, and I still have to today more than I'd like. But things have changed a lot since I first moved downtown. Better? Yes. Worse? That, too. One, two, ten decades ago, Detroit had more apples, now it has more oranges. Does that mean it's better? It's all subjective.

For what it's worth, I'm excited for all the recent positive changes, and I'll probably be here until the day I die. And I do hear more positive responses when I tell people where I live than when I first moved downtown. But an entire generation has left the planet since then, and I always felt my generation would never get it. They had too much baggage from the profound changes the city went through in the 60s and 70s. I hope and pray the current generation that has embraced this great, old, historic city in recent years will continue to embrace it as it continues to evolve. For better and for worse.

[rjlj]

Exactly what was the "etc." in this statement?

"Even though Hudson's pulled out of downtown in the 80s, new residential was sprouting up: Trolley, Riverfront, Millender, Harbortown, River Place, etc."

And what was this movement?

"There was a small, under-the-radar loft movement [[I moved into one, on Woodward actually)."

No, there was no finished Riverwalk, but I used to walk the riverfront every Sunday morning before settling in with the paper for breakfast someplace downtown. Diamond Jack has been around at least that long, and there was also the Star of Detroit operating for a few years.

I moved downtown in 1981. I occupied an office in the David Whitney Building in the mid 80s. I ran a business in a storefront on Woodward near Grand Circus Park from 1988-1991. During that time I read William H. Whyte's, "City: Rediscovering the Center" and was amazed at how many of Whyte's observations of New York City streetlife existed in Detroit, albeit on a different scale and often in a unique way.

When I was on Woodward, I was introduced to a white [[as am I) Detroit television news anchor at a party. I'll not name him, but he was very cordial and took an interest in the business I operated. He also lamented how I was on such a desolate stretch of Woodward. I was shocked. He didn't have a clue. As Bham points out, shopping existed on Woodward, but it catered to it's market: Detroiters. I lectured the news anchor on this point and invited him to come down and stand with me on Woodward on any Saturday and he would see as much activity as he would have found in any mall. Around the same time, I met an executive with Sibley's Shoes and he told me the Grand Circus Park store was the busiest free standing store in the chain [[mall stores, as you would expect, were busier.) The owner of Tall-Eez shoes, a staple on Woodward for years, told me how he had opened a store at the still, reasonably upscale Northland, but it never attained the business of the downtown store. I had also been told that Winkelman's and Marianne's stores were also among the busiest of their free standing stores.

Even though Hudson's pulled out of downtown in the 80s, new residential was sprouting up: Trolley, Riverfront, Millender, Harbortown, River Place, etc. There was a small, under-the-radar loft movement [[I moved into one, on Woodward actually). Greektown actually had several Greek restaurants back then, and it was vibrant, yet accessible, as the casino had not yet come to dominate the area. Rivertown was a close second to Greektown for nightlife with restaurants, clubs and saloons.

The renovated Fox Theatre opened in 1988 and the State Theatre become Clubland. There was almost constant activity around both theatres nearly every weekend and many weeknights, and the Fox continued to be the catalyst for many years. The frequency of shows at the Fox is a shadow of that today.

My point is that ever since Cadillac hopped out of les détroits 311 years ago, our city has been evolving. I had to convince nearly every one of my Northern European brothers and sisters that I was not crazy to choose to live in Detroit back then, and I still have to today more than I'd like. But things have changed a lot since I first moved downtown. Better? Yes. Worse? That, too. One, two, ten decades ago, Detroit had more apples, now it has more oranges. Does that mean it's better? It's all subjective.

For what it's worth, I'm excited for all the recent positive changes, and I'll probably be here until the day I die. And I do hear more positive responses when I tell people where I live than when I first moved downtown. But an entire generation has left the planet since then, and I always felt my generation would never get it. They had too much baggage from the profound changes the city went through in the 60s and 70s. I hope and pray the current generation that has embraced this great, old, historic city in recent years will continue to embrace it as it continues to evolve. For better and for worse.