Are You A U.S. Citizen? [Question Asked on Detroit Ballot]

[Detroitnerd]

please refer to the 2nd amendment, my right to keep and bear arms, why do I have to show ID to buy a gun????

hey, if it were ONLY that easy, just show ID, but its 10000% more difficult to exercise my 2nd amendment right....

please tell me where my 2nd amendment right falls within your arguement???

I think you should be able to buy a gun without an ID. Again, somebody demanding an ID is not just some politically neutral person trying to keep things on the up-and-up. There's always a political agenda to it.

[Detroitnerd]

Then what happens? Are they purged from the rolls? I've never heard of that happening. Doesn't mean that it hasn't, but I've never seen evidence.

Given the sustained push for Voter ID bills, mostly from the right, there has been an effort to show just how much voter fraud there is. George W. Bush vowed that prosecuting voter fraud would be a priority. He goaded his Department of Justice to root it out, because then he could show it WAS an issue and that we needed new laws to secure the polls. But after eight years of Bush demanding the DOJ find voter fraud, how many instances do you figure they found that could result in a prosecution that their superior clearly wanted? Was it 10,000? Or 1,000? Even a few dozen unfairly cast votes could be important, yes? Even one unfairly cast vote, in a small election, would matter.

The DOJ couldn't find one instance of voter fraud over the course of eight years.

According to Rolling Stone, "A major probe by the Justice Department between 2002 and 2007 failed to prosecute a single person for going to the polls and impersonating an eligible voter, which the anti-fraud laws are supposedly designed to stop."

I don't know about you, but that makes me feel pretty secure. At least somebody in this government is doing their job.

I don't think you should have to show ID at the polling place to vote, but still, the above argument is nonsense. A state ID card costs $10. If you are on welfare the fee is waived. You can show nearly any kind of document with your name and an address for proof of residency.

Well, that's how the people who enjoy shaving away civil rights fine-tune their arguments. It doesn't have to be true; it only has to smack of truth to a person of certain means, so they don't have to think about it much to determine it's "nonsense."

For the average person whose wallet has all kinds of identification, and who has several copies of his birth certificate in a lockbox in his bedroom closet, it does seem outrageous. A person who has ID and not a whole lot of challenges simply lacks the imagination to consider all the ways in which getting ID might be very difficult and costly. And these tend to fall outside the experience of their milieu. Did you think for even one moment of the thousands of people who lost all documentation in Katrina, for instance? Now, actual civil servants, researchers and journalists know that there are a great deal of people who don't show up on your radar for whom it would be expensive and difficult to procure the kinds of ID these laws require. They tend to be poor, minority, very old, very young and women. And these laws, these questions, tend to intimidate people, even if they are registered to vote. Can you imagine bringing your daughter to the polls, who may be undocumented, and facing questions about documentation, with law enforcement ready to whisk her away? That's a chilling effect right there.

But a lot of the -- often well-meaning -- proponents of voter ID don't consider any of that stuff. They're kind of in a bubble. It's a nice bubble, but you don't see how the other half lives and you wind up supporting things that take away their rights.

I knew an "undocumented worker" who got a driver's license with a cable TV bill for proof of residency. He could have registered to vote, too, but didn't.

JBMcB, surely you are aware that you don't need to be a citizen to get a driver's license... And if a driver's license isn't proof of citizenship, how can he possibly use that to register to vote? Again, I think your heart's in the right place, and all this stuff smacks of truth to you, but perhaps you don't know the facts on the ground that make or break the good of a law.

Perhaps it is. I still don't hear an convincing argument as to why a "Are you a citizen" checkbox is keeping legitimate voters from voting. I'll buy the argument that it shouldn't be on there because the SoS overstepped her authority [[according to the articles I've read it depends on your interpretation of the powers of the SoS) But calling it a Machiavellian scheme to prevent people from voting seems hyperbolic to say the least.

I recommend you read up on this issue. There's quite a lot written showing that the GOP has been pushing Voter ID aggressively because it believes it will help their outcomes in elections if they scare, bar or otherwise deter their perceived opponents from voting.

And I would hope that even many Republicans would find this distasteful. If there's a reason to think that Gov. Snyder is at all a gentleman, it's because he vetoed those bills. That gives me the sense that he feels the politics and arguments of his party can stand on their own in a fair contest before the people. I imagine that's something we all want, for all Americans to be able to vote.

Sometimes, the medicine is a thousand times worse than the "disease."

Look at the infinitesimal size of the problem. Then look at the harm caused by the "cure."

I think any rational person can come to a sensible conclusion that this is the wrong fix for this.

[downtownguy]

please refer to the 2nd amendment, my right to keep and bear arms, why do I have to show ID to buy a gun????

Perhaps because a gun is a lethal weapon? Perhaps you think buying a gun should fall outside of any regulation? Good, let's let all the crazies buy a gun.

[Goose]

Perhaps because a gun is a lethal weapon? Perhaps you think buying a gun should fall outside of any regulation? Good, let's let all the crazies buy a gun.

so just let all the crazies vote!!! why is this arguement different??? H Y P O C R I C Y......

[Detroitnerd]

so just let all the crazies vote!!! why is this arguement different??? H Y P O C R I C Y......

Does that mean you're opposed to the voter ID requirements?

[Goose]

Does that mean you're opposed to the voter ID requirements?

i don't think asking ID for purchasing guns is unreasonable... just as asking for ID for voting... but I am also consistant... if one is wrong, then the other should be too....... problem with a lot of peoples views and philosphy is that they only support what benefits them with no logic or consistancy..... it is possible to oppose a law but support it at the same time due to constitutionallity.... ie: abortion: i am 100% anti abortion but at the same time respect the right of the individual to choose.......

most people want their cake and eat it too.... damn the rest of the country...

[Goose]

Does that mean you're opposed to the voter ID requirements?

the other problem with this is that 95% of the people on the anti-voter id side are also completely fine with any type of gun control that can be passed.....

[DetroitPlanner]

Why does this happen? Why listen to a fellow from Greater Detroit tell you why.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIGhSo7zMVg

As far as I am concerned this shit smacks of Jim Crow.​We should all be embarrassed by it.

[Goose]

Why does this happen? Why listen to a fellow from Greater Detroit tell you why.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIGhSo7zMVg

As far as I am concerned this shit smacks of Jim Crow.​We should all be embarrassed by it.

what a great source!!!! people complain FOX is biased??? this fictional show is so true and accurate!!!!

[Jimaz]

Why does this happen? Why listen to a fellow from Greater Detroit tell you why.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIGhSo7zMVg

As far as I am concerned this shit smacks of Jim Crow.​We should all be embarrassed by it.

Hah! Thanks. I hadn't seen that.

The question remains: when they belatedly recognize that their position has been unwittingly untenable, are voter suppression advocates going to backpeddle or doubledown? Either way it's a defensive but indefensible reaction of an antidemocratic movement, a classic pincer movement trap willingly entered.

I believe the GOP is deliberately trying to lose this next election, but not necessarily the next presidency. Dare we ask ourselves "Why?"

[Goose]

Why does this happen? Why listen to a fellow from Greater Detroit tell you why.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIGhSo7zMVg

As far as I am concerned this shit smacks of Jim Crow.​We should all be embarrassed by it.

kudos to aunt cooper... 76 years old and never taking social security!!!! way to live off the grid!!! no way to get SS without ID!!!!!

[Detroitnerd]

i don't think asking ID for purchasing guns is unreasonable... just as asking for ID for voting...

So you're in favor of gun control then? I'm confused.

[Goose]

So you're in favor of gun control then? I'm confused.

i don't think its unreasonable to ask for ID to purchase a gun, just as I don't think its unreasonable to ask for ID to vote

is that clear for you???

if your positiion is that its racist, illegal, intimidating, supressing, etc. to ask for ID to vote, then I would tend to think the same if done when applied to gun purchases...

whats good for the "goose", is good for the gander.....

what is your "feeling"????

[poobert]

Within the span of a few years we now have to show our ID and declare our citizenship.

The ID part I am reluctant about but I can see the alleged justification, even though I understand the true motive of it is to keep people from the polls. So we have that.

However it is no poll workers fucking business asking me my citizenship.

Also - have you seen poll workers? Many of them are wildly inept. I think the chances of some screwing this up, by, for example, saying "Were you born a US citizen?" or "when did you become a citizen?" or otherwise convoluting the process in some instances are high.

Since all the other real problems are fixed and now we can concentrate on "vote fraud", when are we going to start diverting government resources to combating the potential for alien invasion? Because that is just about as pressing a problem as "voter fraud."

That is, unless, you're Republican and your only strategy to keep your party from completely imploding [[which we'll see after this election after they have to sell the Romneybot for scrap) is try to keep voters from the polls.

[Detroitnerd]

i don't think its unreasonable to ask for ID to purchase a gun, just as I don't think its unreasonable to ask for ID to vote

is that clear for you???

if your positiion is that its racist, illegal, intimidating, supressing, etc. to ask for ID to vote, then I would tend to think the same if done when applied to gun purchases...

whats good for the "goose", is good for the gander.....

what is your "feeling"????

Yes, I understand. You're not a hypocrite.

And I disagree with you.