32 people murdered over 15 day period in Detroit

[DetroitPlanner]

Well then maybe the city just needs more talented cops. Remember the fireworks evening shooting at Hart Plaza several years back? The Detroit Police had a lot of witnesses to that one [[hundreds of thousands) and they couldn't come up with anything.

You won't get them until you start paying people. No one wants to start a law enforcement career here. Too many issues, not enough pay.

[SWMAP]

Did you read Detroit Blogger's article in the Metro Times last week about the little retro candy store on the upper East Side ? The minister store-owner describes the neighborhood culture of sleeping most of the day, hungry kids not in school wandering in because she will feed them, how the kids have no life-skills as she observes them, how her best customers are drug users because, for some reason, they like candy, etc.
How in the world will better policing save our neighborhoods and city from that generation of unparented, unschooled, unprepared to work or be parents themselves?

[rex]

You have to be extra careful nowadays. 15 years ago, a million residents and more money around. More potential victims. 2012 the victim pool has shrunk.

[adamjab19]

Did you read Detroit Blogger's article in the Metro Times last week about the little retro candy store on the upper East Side ? The minister store-owner describes the neighborhood culture of sleeping most of the day, hungry kids not in school wandering in because she will feed them, how the kids have no life-skills as she observes them, how her best customers are drug users because, for some reason, they like candy, etc.
How in the world will better policing save our neighborhoods and city from that generation of unparented, unschooled, unprepared to work or be parents themselves?

Great point at the end there. How many cops do you really need when people are going to kill and live a criminal lifestyle no matter what? It's a lifestyle these people live, they just don't give a shit. Now I know there are more good than bad people in Detroit, at least I hope so, and that it's the good people that are crying out for help, but it's their own neighbors that are the problem. If these people can't respect their neighbors how are they going to respect cops?

[Honky Tonk]

"Great point at the end there. How many cops do you really need when people are going to kill and live a criminal lifestyle no matter what? It's a lifestyle these people live, they just don't give a shit. Now I know there are more good than bad people in Detroit, at least I hope so, and that it's the good people that are crying out for help, but it's their own neighbors that are the problem. If these people can't respect their neighbors how are they going to respect cops? "

Though I totally agree with your post and SWMAP's, the point of police is to secure the area. The kids that have been brought up with good values, or have figured it out for themselves, make it and move on. They don't want to deal with the "Hood" anymore. They want to be left alone to live the life they're carving out for themselves, in peace. That's why Detroit looks the way it does today. Some people refer to this as "abandoning Detroit", some people feel they've been driven out.

[aj3647]

It's the people at the top that set the tone. When you have leaders who believe that we can bludgeon the world into obedience with a half-dozen wars and occupations, ...

So when people in Detroit murder each other over personal beefs or drugs, it's because George Bush invaded Iraq?

Ok then.

[adamjab19]

"Great point at the end there. How many cops do you really need when people are going to kill and live a criminal lifestyle no matter what? It's a lifestyle these people live, they just don't give a shit. Now I know there are more good than bad people in Detroit, at least I hope so, and that it's the good people that are crying out for help, but it's their own neighbors that are the problem. If these people can't respect their neighbors how are they going to respect cops? "

Though I totally agree with your post and SWMAP's, the point of police is to secure the area. The kids that have been brought up with good values, or have figured it out for themselves, make it and move on. They don't want to deal with the "Hood" anymore. They want to be left alone to live the life they're carving out for themselves, in peace. That's why Detroit looks the way it does today. Some people refer to this as "abandoning Detroit", some people feel they've been driven out.

I shouldn't minimize police involvement so much because you are right, they would help if there were far more of them and it seems the forces that are in place have some impact. But it's almost like the awful part of the population needs to weed themselves out while hopefully not destroying too many others lives' in their path.

[Hermod]

So when people in Detroit murder each other over personal beefs or drugs, it's because George Bush invaded Iraq?

Ok then.

No Nerd blames Richard Nixon, Henry Kissinger, and the Cambodian incursion. That is when it all started.

[mikeg19]

What? You mean the Detroit 300 hasn't solved all these problems??!!!!!??/

[cla1945]

Make that 33

[Jimaz]

No Nerd blames Richard Nixon, Henry Kissinger, and the Cambodian incursion. That is when it all started.

Those readers less reflexively dismissive might want to read

• CIA and Contras cocaine trafficking in the US
• Dark Alliance

and form their own conclusions.

Let me be frank about what we are finding. There are instances where CIA did not, in an expeditious or consistent fashion, cut off relationships with individuals supporting the Contra program who were alleged to have engaged in drug trafficking activity or take action to resolve the allegations.

Hitz also testified that the CIA did not "expeditiously" cut off relations with alleged drug traffickers.

Frederick Hitz was the CIA Inspector General and it's pretty obvious to anyone paying attention that there was an elaborate attempt at a coverup.

[Zacha341]

Perhaps it due to the fact that the dems have over promised and under delivered?

Neither partisan rubric fully explain the lawlessness that is increasing. Both have had some impact at certain levels however.

So when people in Detroit murder each other over personal beefs or drugs, it's because George Bush invaded Iraq?

Ok then.

[Newdetroit]

The state should invest in boarding schools instead of ghetto hoodrats raising another generation of hoodlums!

[firstandten]

More police is not the answer. Its just not that simple. Many of you equate more police with reduction in violent crime and I don’t see that as being the case. About the only thing more police presence can do is stop crimes among crowds in public venues. What you want from police is a quick response during or after a crime and a speedy arrest after you been a victim. But its still after the fact the deed has already been done. The key is the quote from the The head of homicide, Lieutenant Dwayne Blackmon in the first post which he said very few cases are random
And that they are fueled by anger. I would venture a guess that the anger is either a domestic dispute or has something to do with drugs and I don’t know what affect more police would have.
What needs to happen to bring violent crime down are a number of things some of which people might find distasteful
1) Drugs need to be de-criminalized – In Detroit drugs are an industry as real as the auto industry with money to be made a whole lot of different ways. The profit must be taken out of it. Unlike legit industries killings are a way to handle disputes and competition.
2) We need full employment or something close to it in the city
3) Access to guns must be limited- You have many people with anger management issues and a gun is too easy to get and use. Plus they feel they have nothing to lose.
4) If you use the 80-20 rule target the 20% by enforcing the curfew and loitering laws in a big way
Generally when you have a spike in crimes like in the 80’s when Detroit had all the murders you can pretty guess that a drug war is going on. I don’t know what more police could have done to stop that.

[firstandten]

Those readers less reflexively dismissive might want to read

• CIA and Contras cocaine trafficking in the US
• Dark Alliance

and form their own conclusions.

Its been said that Freeway Ricky Ross the LA drug kingpin who had ties to the Contras did business with some of the Detroit drug gangs.

[SWMAP]

Why would de-crimilizing drugs be a solution. There is already a large demographic of people who don't get up in the morning for the kids, who don't go to school, who will never get a job, who will always be stealing utilities and water and selling their food stamps. Some drugs would get cheaper and fewer people will be arrested - but maybe the de-criminilation solution will just lead to a bigger democratic in Detroit who will still prey on kids in Grosse Pointe who have iPhones.

[313WX]

Why would de-crimilizing drugs be a solution. There is already a large demographic of people who don't get up in the morning for the kids, who don't go to school, who will never get a job, who will always be stealing utilities and water and selling their food stamps. Some drugs would get cheaper and fewer people will be arrested - but maybe the de-criminilation solution will just lead to a bigger democratic in Detroit who will still prey on kids in Grosse Pointe who have iPhones.

Good point.

People also tend to underestimate how much of Detroit's economy is dependent on illegal drug money.

Although they may not pay taxes, their money still spends at businesses in the city.

[Motor City Sam]

I don't think that just putting more cops on the force is alone the fix for Detroit's crime problem, but it certainly is part of the solution. Right now there aren't even enough cops to respond to 911 calls in a timely matter.

While more police officers on patrol won't prevent the homicide that results from two women arguing over the same guy or one drug dealer trying to cheat another on the price of a few ounces, more officers on the force, properly deployed, certainly increases the effectiveness of police response to crime. More cops on patrol means a 911 call reporting shots fired might get a quicker response and lead to an arrest rather than the perpetrator being on the other side of town by the time the police arrive. More detectives on the force might mean fewer cases being juggled by one detective, allowing some actual investigation to be done.

One reason crime is so brazen these days is because there is so little fear of consequences among criminals. You kill someone in Detroit and you have a 50% chance of getting away with it. 911 response is so slow I imagine most criminals figure they can break in a house, set off the alarm, and still get a pretty good haul before the police show up.

Yes, issues of employment, community outreach, parental involvement, etc., all play a role in reducing crime. But don't overlook the role that enforcement and, yes, punishment, play in the equation.

[firstandten]

Why would de-crimilizing drugs be a solution. There is already a large demographic of people who don't get up in the morning for the kids, who don't go to school, who will never get a job, who will always be stealing utilities and water and selling their food stamps. Some drugs would get cheaper and fewer people will be arrested - but maybe the de-criminilation solution will just lead to a bigger democratic in Detroit who will still prey on kids in Grosse Pointe who have iPhones.

You make some good points. You can do one of two things with drugs, you either prosecute and jail your way out of the problem, or you take the profit out of it. We all know how the first option or the "war on drugs" is going.

However if you do that you must replace it with something thats why there needs to be something close to full employment, or everyone who wants a job can find a job. In some areas in Detroit if there wasn't welfare or drugs that area would have no economy to speak of. You need to understand that in some areas of Detroit drugs are not a hobby it is a full blown economic necessity bringing all the crap that comes along with it.

Now using the 80-20 rule you have that 20% [[actually less) that are part of the criminal class. No matter what you do these people aren't going to do right. The criminal justice system needs to come down on the worst of these people as hard as legally possible. If we could take the profits out of the drugs then we would have more room in the jails and prisons for the Iphone thieves

[firstandten]

I don't think that just putting more cops on the force is alone the fix for Detroit's crime problem, but it certainly is part of the solution. Right now there aren't even enough cops to respond to 911 calls in a timely matter.

While more police officers on patrol won't prevent the homicide that results from two women arguing over the same guy or one drug dealer trying to cheat another on the price of a few ounces, more officers on the force, properly deployed, certainly increases the effectiveness of police response to crime. More cops on patrol means a 911 call reporting shots fired might get a quicker response and lead to an arrest rather than the perpetrator being on the other side of town by the time the police arrive. More detectives on the force might mean fewer cases being juggled by one detective, allowing some actual investigation to be done.

One reason crime is so brazen these days is because there is so little fear of consequences among criminals. You kill someone in Detroit and you have a 50% chance of getting away with it. 911 response is so slow I imagine most criminals figure they can break in a house, set off the alarm, and still get a pretty good haul before the police show up.

Yes, issues of employment, community outreach, parental involvement, etc., all play a role in reducing crime. But don't overlook the role that enforcement and, yes, punishment, play in the equation.

You are right, you do need more police on patrol. I am questioning convention wisdom that more cops=less crime because I just don't think that is true. Much depends on how they are deployed and what departments they are put in [[homicide would seen to need more people but all police officiers aren't good in that particular area).

I would bet that the police brass would tell you their response time to major crimes is competitive with other major cities, and it probably is. So the question is how many police do you need to see in order to see a significant reduction in crime. I doubt if anyone knows that answer except the police union who of course wants to see their ranks swell.

You are again correct about criminals being brazen about their crimes. However that is as much about the criminal justice system as it is about law enforcement. These guys bond out because of lack of room in the jails and while out they continue to commit crimes, so yes they are brazen because the odds are in their favor. More police won't necessary help that. So while yes, we can use more police I'm not buying into the CW that more police automatically means less crime.

[Motor City Sam]

You are right, you do need more police on patrol. I am questioning convention wisdom that more cops=less crime because I just don't think that is true. Much depends on how they are deployed and what departments they are put in [[homicide would seen to need more people but all police officiers aren't good in that particular area).

I would bet that the police brass would tell you their response time to major crimes is competitive with other major cities, and it probably is. So the question is how many police do you need to see in order to see a significant reduction in crime. I doubt if anyone knows that answer except the police union who of course wants to see their ranks swell.

You are again correct about criminals being brazen about their crimes. However that is as much about the criminal justice system as it is about law enforcement. These guys bond out because of lack of room in the jails and while out they continue to commit crimes, so yes they are brazen because the odds are in their favor. More police won't necessary help that. So while yes, we can use more police I'm not buying into the CW that more police automatically means less crime.

Definitely the proper deployment of additional officers is key. Adding guys to the City council protection detail or the Mayor's security staff sure won't help. :-) I'd like to see more officers properly deployed to neighborhood patrol, narcotics, Violent Crimes Task Force, even the SWAT team, which I have heard is understaffed. I can remember when there were 5,000 cops on the DPD. I think it's less than half that now.

And it's true that not all police officers would make good homicide detectives, but given the lack of officers we have, the pool to draw from is that much smaller.

I also think there is such a lack of concern about getting arrested that most criminals aren't even worried about what might happen in front of a judge. But you are right about failure of the criminal justice system.

I think you and I are mostly in agreement on this topic, so I don't mean to come across as if I'm arguing with you.

[Motor City Sam]

By chance I just heard Kym Worthy say on the radio that the DPD does not even send officers out to breaking and entering complaints, meaning no evidence is taken and no investigation is taking place. Not sure how long that has been going on. Back in 2008 when someone broke into my home while I was at work, the cops came out. Then again, they were called by by my neighbor who is retired DPD, so that may have made a difference.

[firstandten]

Motor City Sam we are mostly in agreement, I felt I needed to clarify some of the points I made in the earlier post.

[Motor City Sam]

Motor City Sam we are mostly in agreement, I felt I needed to clarify some of the points I made in the earlier post.

Understood. Thanks for the clarifications.

[Patrick]

More police is not the answer. Its just not that simple. Many of you equate more police with reduction in violent crime and I don’t see that as being the case. About the only thing more police presence can do is stop crimes among crowds in public venues. What you want from police is a quick response during or after a crime and a speedy arrest after you been a victim. But its still after the fact the deed has already been done. The key is the quote from the The head of homicide, Lieutenant Dwayne Blackmon in the first post which he said very few cases are random
And that they are fueled by anger. I would venture a guess that the anger is either a domestic dispute or has something to do with drugs and I don’t know what affect more police would have.
What needs to happen to bring violent crime down are a number of things some of which people might find distasteful
1) Drugs need to be de-criminalized – In Detroit drugs are an industry as real as the auto industry with money to be made a whole lot of different ways. The profit must be taken out of it. Unlike legit industries killings are a way to handle disputes and competition.
2) We need full employment or something close to it in the city
3) Access to guns must be limited- You have many people with anger management issues and a gun is too easy to get and use. Plus they feel they have nothing to lose.
4) If you use the 80-20 rule target the 20% by enforcing the curfew and loitering laws in a big way
Generally when you have a spike in crimes like in the 80’s when Detroit had all the murders you can pretty guess that a drug war is going on. I don’t know what more police could have done to stop that.

The hardest thing will be #2...how do you bring new jobs to the area?