River Plaza Apartments on Jefferson Completely Vacant

[Jason]

There might be attachment to the park because it is currently there. But I think it's better to think of what the best possible thing for that location is right now and for the future, and go from there.

We can think of a hypothetical past, where River Plaza Apartments and the Whittier were never built, and Owen Park and Erma Henderson Park were, today in 2017, one big riverfront park. Then let's say that today someone wanted to build a large luxury apartment complex right in the middle of the park. Obviously breaking up a large waterfront park for a private luxury development would be opposed. But what does that mean for today? Following that logic exercise to its natural conclusion means that today we should demolish River Plaza and the entire Whittier complex to make one big contiguous park.

Or alternatively, if back in a hypothetical past, the Indian Village developer didn't set that land aside for a park, but rather built a neighborhood commercial district there, what would people think today if the city decided to demolish it all and replace it with a grass lawn? Obviously, people would be upset. But following that logic, we should replace the park with a neighborhood commercial district.


Personally, I think EHP is big enough and close enough for any grass-based activities. You could put in more playground equipment, a sport field, a dog park, a band shell, almost anything, and it would all fit.

Does EHP have enough waterfront for waterfront-based activities? For fishing or having a picnic, and boating, yes. But otherwise, there's not a reason to be there and so the daily public life of the neighborhood is not integrated with and does not take advantage of the riverfront.

Indian Village is absolutely underserved, commercially. There's a handful of businesses total. Even in the blandest, lowest density suburban bedroom communities, there's dramatically more. Maybe people in the neighborhood would like to be able to walk down the block to several of their favorite local restaurants? What about an ice cream parlor near the park? A barber shop? A hardware store? A vet? Pet groomers? Cafes? Various stores for basic daily shopping? Maybe a few interesting boutique shops? I'm not talking about a Hard Rock Cafe or even a Slows, I'm talking about basic retail that normal functioning neighborhoods have.


So what I think would be good [[and it goes without saying that none of this would ever happen), would be to:

Get the empty lot to the west of Owen Park, get and demolish River Plaza Apartments, and get the parking lot and the lawn of the Whittier property.

Extend the riverfront part of EHP to the west, and build a new road in the process. The new park land should be used for a little beach or swimming pool or some other riverfront specific recreation.

Put a well-scaled hard surfaced plaza at the foot of Iroqouis, with trees, street furniture, a water feature or some public art. This would function like a town square [[or more cheesily, a "village square") for the neighborhood, and would be lined with the types of businesses that benefit most from that kind of social focal point.

Connect the new plaza and EHP with a new road that bisects the Whittier parking lots. Connect the new plaza and the riverfront with a new road that bisects the current Owen Park. This road should be wide enough that a pedestrian would still have a visual connection to the river. These roads would have street parking. They would connect the different areas of parkspace, and would enable an integrated experience across all of them.

Line all of the streets with mixed use buildings of a human scale. Put parking garages behind them [[so a garage serving the west half of the development, and a garage serving the east half, including the Whittier).


I think this would increase the variety and quality of park spaces, while only slightly reducing the amount of park area. It would create commercial space for local neighborhood businesses. And it would create a focal point for the community's civic life.

[gnome]

Friends,

I sure is nice to see an old-fashioned fight being waged on these tired, old digital pages.

Too bad Rasputin ain't around to spice things up while swinging to the fences with his four-foot wang.

Or BlkSoulX with his unique brand of Linguistical musicality...

Ah, the Yule log may conjure good cheer, but not when EastsideAl and DerSwingline try to staple each other to the mat.

Keep going guys... I have an industrial size bag of popcorn.

[swingline]

Friends,

I sure is nice to see an old-fashioned fight being waged on these tired, old digital pages.

Too bad Rasputin ain't around to spice things up while swinging to the fences with his four-foot wang.

Or BlkSoulX with his unique brand of Linguistical musicality...

Ah, the Yule log may conjure good cheer, but not when EastsideAl and DerSwingline try to staple each other to the mat.

Keep going guys... I have an industrial size bag of popcorn.

“DerSwingline?” That’s good, Gnome. Don’t worry. DerSwingline has plenty more officiousness, nastiness and idiocy to offer. Can’t hold a candle to Rasputin or BlkSoulX though.

[ABetterDetroit]

Owen Park is surplus. The city needs the tax base much more than a few locals need an additional expensive-to-maintain park so they can walk their dogs somewhere without having to pick up after them.

Surplus? Owen park? 7 acres of prime riverfront at the very foot of indisputably the best neighborhood on the eastside?

Not a chance I would let this one go. Besides you know damn well they are not interested in PAYING the property taxes. They will want those abated with the under market price tag they will offer...

Green spaces and parks in abundance on the river are exactly what will drive development of the vacant residential parcels north of Jefferson in the future.

If nothing else, block the vehicle access, brush out, then finish grade it and mow as necessary. Leave something highly valuable and useful for the next generation but under no circumstances cave in to the long term property speculators on both sides of it. Those types have done plenty of damage to consider rewarding them for their efforts.

P.S. Brick and mortar retail is imploding and changing rapidly for the long term. Let it take care of itself for a while and stay the hell out of that high risk business for city planning.

[archfan]

If every other parcel between the RenCen and the Pointes were built out, and these seven acres were the only ones left, this argument might make sense. Until then, the city should allow the neighborhood to fix up their local park.

[EastsideAl]

I keep reading in this thread that Indian Village "needs" more retail and is "underserved". That, despite the resistance we put up over and over again to such projects, Villagers and adjacent apartment dwellers MUST want more stores and restaurants in their neighborhood.

This is seemingly ignorant of the history of the area. Indian Village was designed and built as a quiet residential enclave free from commercial activity, and has long been zoned as single family residential. The apartment building area south of Jefferson has a similar non-commercial zoning. There is little retail here because there was never supposed to be much retail here. The Indian Village Association was founded many years ago specifically to combat such incursions into our neighborhood.

This residential character is a feature of the neighborhood, one that the people who live there have fought to preserve over many decades, and not something that needs to be "fixed". With plenty of empty and available retail and development space up and down Jefferson and other nearby streets, and in a city filled with vacant land, I'm not at all sure why so many people seem in such a hurry to "fix" this small area. And especially to snatch away specifically deeded public riverfront parkland to do so.

It's almost like the people who have lived here for years, who have fought tooth and nail to preserve this special area with its special character against significant odds, and who have made their preferences in these matters clear time and again, don't exist. As if we citizens are [[as far too often seems to be the case) viewed as just some pesky impediment to the unmitigated hubris of wannabe city-savin' planners who know what's good for us better than we know ourselves.

I have two words for you folks, one of which begins with an F and can't be posted here, the other of which is YOU.

[Jason]

So what you're saying is that you don't think commercial activity should be in Indian Village, and that you'll be urging the Indian Village Association to force out Indian Village Market, the cleaners, and the drug store?

[EastsideAl]

So what you're saying is that you don't think commercial activity should be in Indian Village, and that you'll be urging the Indian Village Association to force out Indian Village Market, the cleaners, and the drug store?

There is no commercial activity allowed in Indian Village, except for some doctors' offices along Kercheval [[although none are currently active). The Village's zoning, and thus the modern borders of Indian Village itself, officially ends at the alley north of Jefferson.

However, Villagers and the IVA long fought commercial development on Jefferson within the 3 street footprint of Indian Village [[since those blocks were part of the original land of the Owen family that became Indian Village). Several of the houses on Jefferson had small professional offices or medical offices in them, but no retail business structures had ever been built there. When the zoning change that allowed the building of the Wrigley's supermarket [[currently the Indian Village Market) was originally proposed, the Indian Village Association fought it at the zoning board and in court for several years, before reaching a settlement.

The settlement allowed limited commercial zoning on the north side of Jefferson only. A gas station [[which is currently a drug store) with an adjacent storefront [[now a cleaners) was also built at the corner of Jefferson and Iroquois. Several years later a Clock restaurant [[now a dental office) was built at Seminole and Jefferson, also over the objections of the IVA. Retail businesses, other than a couple small stores within the Alden Park Manor, have never been permitted on the south side of Jefferson in that area.

[swingline]

I keep reading in this thread that Indian Village "needs" more retail and is "underserved". That, despite the resistance we put up over and over again to such projects, Villagers and adjacent apartment dwellers MUST want more stores and restaurants in their neighborhood.

This is seemingly ignorant of the history of the area. Indian Village was designed and built as a quiet residential enclave free from commercial activity, and has long been zoned as single family residential. The apartment building area south of Jefferson has a similar non-commercial zoning. There is little retail here because there was never supposed to be much retail here. The Indian Village Association was founded many years ago specifically to combat such incursions into our neighborhood.

This residential character is a feature of the neighborhood, one that the people who live there have fought to preserve over many decades, and not something that needs to be "fixed". With plenty of empty and available retail and development space up and down Jefferson and other nearby streets, and in a city filled with vacant land, I'm not at all sure why so many people seem in such a hurry to "fix" this small area. And especially to snatch away specifically deeded public riverfront parkland to do so.

It's almost like the people who have lived here for years, who have fought tooth and nail to preserve this special area with its special character against significant odds, and who have made their preferences in these matters clear time and again, don't exist. As if we citizens are [[as far too often seems to be the case) viewed as just some pesky impediment to the unmitigated hubris of wannabe city-savin' planners who know what's good for us better than we know ourselves.

I have two words for you folks, one of which begins with an F and can't be posted here, the other of which is YOU.

Al, you have misstated the purpose and reasons for the formation of the Indian Village Association. Your suggestion that that E. Jefferson Ave should be “free from commercial activity” conflicts with the IVA’s express consent to the use of E. Jefferson lots for commercial purposes. The IVA first engaged in litigation to support single-family residential zoning in Indian Village almost 80 years ago. The Association’s by-laws purposefully mention only Seminole, Iroquois and Burns as the streets on which it sought to enforce the zoning. By that time E. Jefferson had been widened to its current width and countless commercial uses had been established there, including in both new buildings and former single family residences. Continuing to the present, all of the IVA’s efforts regarding zoning and uses have been focused on Seminole, Iroquois and Burns, not E. Jefferson. This is not 1898 and there is no rational basis for promoting E. Jefferson Ave between Van Dyke Ave. and Burns Ave. as a “quiet residential enclave.”

Your opinion that E. Jefferson should be free of commercial activity also conflicts with the current administration’s 20-minute neighborhood initiative. Authentic urban neighborhoods that satisfy a range of basic daily living needs within a 20 minute walk provide stability, community and safety. They are highly sought after in cities across the country. The Duggan administration is seeking to jumpstart projects that promote this initiative. 20-minute neighborhoods need density and retail. E. Jefferson and the area south are perfect for such development.

The NIMBY opposition from 20 years ago that you still support is not nearly as prevalent today with current residents. Folks moving to the Villages today are not looking for some kind of forested suburban enclave in the city removed from urban activity. Instead, they want urban amenities in close proximity. Just like in every other successful and vibrant urban city across the country.

[Honky Tonk]

I am home Honky and I know just as much about Owen Park as you do.

You’re right about one thing. Scores of Detroiters use Owen Park every week. About 3 or 4 score. While I won’t engage you in ad hominems, I will say that advocating for maintaining 20 acres of trees and grass on valuable riverfront land for the use of a few dozen visitors per week is awful public policy. More people use the riverfront Rivard Plaza in two hours than use Owen Park in a week.

Your statement about protecting people’s views of the river sounds like it came from one of those folks who believe that E. Jefferson should be our version of Chicago’s Lake Shore Drive. Make everything south of E. Jefferson all pretty and green so folks have nice grass and water to look at while whizzing along in their vehicles. Yeah, that’ll promote economic development. Ooh, look at the sailboats. Aah, the water is so blue. We could really be world-class if the city would just plant some trees and flowers on the Uniroyal site, right? And while they’re at it, maybe they can time those traffic lights on E. Jefferson a little better so you can get home from the expressway in 7 minutes rather than 10.

Also, let me correct a few errors in your post. Indeed, Erma Henderson Park does include several hundred feet of waterfront access. Detroiters from all over the city use it. Lots of fisherman too. I never said that Mollicone Park had waterfront access. My obvious point was that it is another [[quickly improving through the assistance of a neighborhood group) recreational option for West Village, Indian Village and East Village. There is no shortage of parks for these neighborhoods. And what’s wrong with the modest fencing at Gabriel Richard Park? Do you need access to every foot of shoreline so you can jump in and go swimming wherever you want?

Finally, it sounds like you don’t care for hipsters, but I don’t care if the potential new residents are hipsters, seniors, students, refugees, Republicans or angry white dudes. If development at Owen Park can add new amenities and taxpayers to that neighborhood, the city should try to make it happen. Most Detroiters will survive losing a glimpse of the river from 1000 feet away while driving along in their cars.

Stapler, you should've gone to school or @ least taken a basic math class. 3 or 4 people @ Owen Park? 1000 ft. from E. Jefferson to the water? Cheap apartments along Jefferson? You really don't have a clue, do you? Why didn't you put retail in Mollicone Park, right there in your neighborhood? There's thousands of people that live on the water, enjoy the view, and are fine with the way it is. They don't need the likes of punky suburbanites trying to remake things into their own image and likeness. Seriously, go back home. You'll have nice safe culverts to ride your bicycle on, plenty of strip malls to keep buying crap @, and I'm sure there's still a couple of square feet of grass somewhere you can cover with concrete and put up a lemonade stand. Maybe you should try enjoying the amenities the City has to offer, stapler, instead of turning into an invading army.

[kathy2trips]

So what you're saying is that you don't think be urging the Indian Village Association to force out Indian Village Market, the cleaners, and the drug store?

Jason, there's a big difference between the local florist, dry cleaners, i.e. small neighborhood businesses and having big box stores, chain and mega retailers in what is essentially a "bedroom community." There's also issue of how the area looks; the visuals of a neighborhood with unique, beautiful housing stock is destroyed with so much square-footage of non-descript, unimaginative, one-style-fits-any-place commercial development.

Thank you, Al! When are "developers" finally going to get a clue that the most desirable urban areas have both residential and commercial historical properties that are aesthetically appealing? Places like Charelston SC and NYC have viable and thriving neighborhoods that haven't sacrificed their charm for some twisted 21st century notion of "livability".

Why in God's name would a city like Detroit with an architecturally rich residential footprint want to build a generic stucco & fake brick fascia wasteland shopping center to go along with it? The Indian Village Marketplace comes immediately to mind. Its placement directly next to two lovely historic homes on E. Jefferson [[forgive me, I can't remember their names) makes for a jarring aesthetic. Please don't build this kind of crap to service historic neighborhoods and expect people to swarm there; it won't happen.

It's nearly impossible to the regional differences in 21st century real estate development. Please Jason, don't tell me you'd like to see any more of this kind of strip center in Detroit:

Attachment 34685

The only redeeming feature of this kind of development is that the customer parking is in the front, facing the street, which is a safer option that having patron parking behind the building, which is often the case in post-war developments. Even little varied-style Grosse Pointe-like shops would be preferable.



It would not take much imagination to re-create the 1910-20s ambiance in new construction: reclaimed brick, block, stone and other recycled building materials would match the charm of the residential buildings in the area, and would add modern conveniences like central A/C and Wi-Fi capabilities.



Let's save what we still have and build around it in an architecturally sensitive and historically respectful manner. No McMasonry, please!

BTW: Do you know where the strip center photo above was taken? Yeah, that's my point; it could be anywhere! We blow it when we do what other cities do. We have to keep our individuality to keep our identity.

[masterblaster]

1. There is ample opportunity for retail development on the north side of Mack Avenue, which is Indian Village's northern border. Mack Avenue is pretty barren along that stretch

2. For Indian Villagers, there are shops along Agnes, Van Dyke, Parker, and Kercheval in adjacent West Village

3. There is an opportunity for retail immediately to the east and west of Indian Village along Jefferson. Remember this proposed condo/retail project at Jefferson and Van Dyke from almost 3 years ago?

https://detroit.curbed.com/2015/2/26...posed#comments

4. Owen Park is an over 100-year old park that once had a beautiful fountain & wading pool, and at one time was very well cared for. In my very humble opinion, Detroit needs to be of the mindset of Daniel Burnham of Chicago, who decreed that the lakefront should be open and accessible for all residents of Chicago. As much of our riverfront needs to be open for the recreation of all Detroiters; this is what can distinguish Detroit from other waterfront communities like Grosse Pointe, St. Clair Shores, and the Lakes area of Oakland County, where the lakefronts are monopolized by private residents, businesses, and marinas.

[swingline]

Stapler, you should've gone to school or @ least taken a basic math class. 3 or 4 people @ Owen Park? 1000 ft. from E. Jefferson to the water? Cheap apartments along Jefferson? You really don't have a clue, do you? Why didn't you put retail in Mollicone Park, right there in your neighborhood? There's thousands of people that live on the water, enjoy the view, and are fine with the way it is. They don't need the likes of punky suburbanites trying to remake things into their own image and likeness. Seriously, go back home. You'll have nice safe culverts to ride your bicycle on, plenty of strip malls to keep buying crap @, and I'm sure there's still a couple of square feet of grass somewhere you can cover with concrete and put up a lemonade stand. Maybe you should try enjoying the amenities the City has to offer, stapler, instead of turning into an invading army.

C’mon Honky. You’re giving us another post littered with inaccuracies?


First, I stated that Owen Park gets 3 or 4 score visitors weekly, not 3 or 4 total.


Second, it seems that you don’t think that the distance from E. Jefferson to the river at Owen Park is nearly 1000 feet. You know what, you’re right. Google Maps claims that it’s 1075 feet. Oops. My bad.


Third, you suggest that I want cheap apartments along E. Jefferson. Again, never said that. Read my posts again. Highest and best use of the land calls for something in the luxury or near luxury segment. Since the land is city-owned, any project will need to include a 20% affordable units component unless the developer wants to pay market rate for the waterfront acreage.


Fourth, you keep referring to strip mall development as if I’m advocating some kind of Chene Square project for the site. Again, nothing I’ve posted states or even implies that strip development should occur at Owen Park.


Don’t worry Honky. You’re not the only one in this thread setting up strawmen just so they can easily knock them down. I won’t return the favor of branding you as clueless. However, your vision of E. Jefferson near the Villages squanders one of the painfully few locations in our struggling city that could evolve rather quickly into a true thriving urban place. One with a strong diversity of uses at an intensity that would create value for nearby residents while adding to the city tax base. Get out more and see what’s possible. Small retail districts that also make for excellent public spaces can be found all over the country. Design District in Miami. Shadyside in Pittsburgh. Lake Street in Petoskey. Heck, even the nearby [[still to be filled in) retail at thte Orleans Landing project in Rivertown provides some possibilities for what Owen Park could become.

Or we could be satisfied with a dog poop run that also has a great view of the river.

[Bham1982]

Folks moving to the Villages today are not looking for some kind of forested suburban enclave in the city removed from urban activity. Instead, they want urban amenities in close proximity. Just like in every other successful and vibrant urban city across the country.

Why would someone be looking for "urban amenities" and then move to Indian Village? Does that make any sense?

Indian Village isn't urban. It's large homes on generous, wooded lots. It's about as urban as Huntington Woods or Pleasant Ridge. And the fact that Jefferson has a couple of strip malls doesn't exactly contribute to the urban form.

IMO Indian Village would look much better from Jefferson if you got rid of the hideous-looking low-end retail and showcased the homes and greenery, as with Boston Edison, University District and Palmer Woods.

[expatriate]

"The only redeeming feature of this kind of development is that the customer parking is in the front, facing the street, which is a safer option that having patron parking behind the building"

I have to disagree with this part of the Kathy2 post. Front parking lots degrade the pedestrian experience and the streetscape. The attached photo of what appears to be Grosse Pointe actually has their parking in the rear. Rear entrances from parking lots can be made to be just as safe and welcoming as the front entrances with a little design effort.

[MikeM]

I have to disagree with this part of the Kathy2 post. Front parking lots degrade the pedestrian experience and the streetscape. The attached photo of what appears to be Grosse Pointe actually has their parking in the rear. Rear entrances from parking lots can be made to be just as safe and welcoming as the front entrances with a little design effort.

I live within a hundred yards of that block of Mack Avenue in Grosse Pointe Woods, and the customer parking is indeed, in front. There is limited employee parking behind in the alley. I don't know what she meanings by safer, but I think getting in and out of your car next to 35 mph traffic is kind of unsafe.

[Richard]

My 1946 truck has the key lock on the passenger door and none on the drivers door,you locked the drivers door from the inside and slide across the seat exiting on the curb out of harms way.

Funny how they were more safety minded back then.