Obama Care - Hillary Care II

[Sstashmoo]

Quote: "Some posters here are paranoid they are going to be "forced" into some sort of government run system."

The insurance company's claims that some employers will force their employees on a cheaper run government system has some teeth to it. Why wouldn't they? Most employees would be for a raise and switch to an equal level of coverage through the government. The key here is Federal dollars, something for nothing, people are going to exploit it. Guaranteed.

[mjs]

I doubt there would be much opposition to including tort reform since either universal coverage or mandated coverage will bring the potential gains of malpractice cases down so low that it'll virtually go away on its own. The courts won't allow you get reimbursed for your hospital bills by both the doctor and insurer or your lost work by both the doctor and a social program. Loss of consortium and pain and suffereing usually can't even cover the costs of the expert witnesses.

The CBO estimates it to be only 2% of health care costs, but its a start and 2% is alot more than nothing.

[Detroitej72]

I read in USA Today an interesting editorial about how a sort of co-op health care fund would be a good idea. Its worth considering.

[WolverinesA2]

I read in USA Today an interesting editorial about how a sort of co-op health care fund would be a good idea. Its worth considering.

That's what the Republicans are pushing. I place no faith in what they have to offer. Remember, the GOP's previous solution to the health care crisis was the idea of "Health Savings Accounts." Now, several years later, studies done on the effectiveness of Health Savings Accounts have found that they have actually made health care worse and more expensive.

[ccbatson]

Here is how the private insurers will be forced out contrary to what Obama says:

Employers will choose what options to offer for most folks in the middle. The choices they have will be; a free [[or nearly free) public option, or the usual array of plans [[HMOs, FFS) costing them varying amounts, and therefore, also costing the employee some amount depending on their dependants and which options they choose. Here is where it really falls apart for the privates; any choice, other than the public option WILL BE TAXED AS INCOME.

If unions are involved, some of them are currently on the hook for the health benefits [[ie the UAW), so, the public option for them is a no brainer, take the free public option AND WALK AWAY WITH THE ESCROWED CASH free and clear.

Where in these formulas, does individual choice fall? Little or nowhere. Where, or too whom does quality matter? The employer? The Union? The government? Only indirectly and as a minor consideration is the care a primary concern to these middle people.

Do you see much "choice" left?

[WolverinesA2]

Here is how the private insurers will be forced out contrary to what Obama says:

Employers will choose what options to offer for most folks in the middle. The choices they have will be; a free [[or nearly free) public option, or the usual array of plans [[HMOs, FFS) costing them varying amounts, and therefore, also costing the employee some amount depending on their dependants and which options they choose. Here is where it really falls apart for the privates; any choice, other than the public option WILL BE TAXED AS INCOME.

Even IF what you say is true, and I dispute that it is, how will that force out INDIVIDUAL private insurance? Under the Obama plan, will you be prohibited from buying an individual private health insurance plan? Yes or no? I don't have employer-sponsored health insurance, I pay for my own private health insurance as an individual. Will Obama force me to go on public health care or you preclude you or anyone else from obtaining individual private health insurance?

[rb336]

Here is how the private insurers will be forced out contrary to what Obama says:

Employers will choose what options to offer for most folks in the middle. The choices they have will be; a free [[or nearly free) public option, or the usual array of plans [[HMOs, FFS) costing them varying amounts, and therefore, also costing the employee some amount depending on their dependants and which options they choose. Here is where it really falls apart for the privates; any choice, other than the public option WILL BE TAXED AS INCOME.

If unions are involved, some of them are currently on the hook for the health benefits [[ie the UAW), so, the public option for them is a no brainer, take the free public option AND WALK AWAY WITH THE ESCROWED CASH free and clear.

Where in these formulas, does individual choice fall? Little or nowhere. Where, or too whom does quality matter? The employer? The Union? The government? Only indirectly and as a minor consideration is the care a primary concern to these middle people.

Do you see much "choice" left?

hey, if the insurance companies stop sucking away all our money and coverage so they can give their execs multi-million dollar bonuses, if they stopped spending so much justifying denial of coverage, perhaps they could compete. If they can't, then that great invisible hand of the marketplace will have spoken, and you should be happy with the result. after all, the markets are never wrong

[mjs]

Do you want lower costs or fewer denials? Despite what Democratic leadership has told you for decades, there's no such thing as a free lunch. We all split the bill. If we eat at Andiamo's and try each course, your share of the bill will be more than if we go to McDonald's and all get happy meals. I can afford Andiamo's better than most of those that want Andiamo's, but a large part of that is that I'm frugal so I can be just as happy with the happy meal. Unless you're self employed, the fact you're not under a company health care plan tells me that your going to have a harder time chipping in for Andiamo's and making it to the bar on Friday so lets just all go enjoy that happy meal.

[rb336]

European systems have far lower costs, far fewer denials of coverage and better outcomes.

that, my friend, is a win-win-win situation, paying for butt steak and getting filet mignon, whereas we are paying for filet mignon and getting mystery meat

[mjs]

Prove the fewer denials or higher surgical success rates. Foreigners come here for training and life saving surgeries. We go to other nations for humanitarian reasons and to get cosmetic surgery thats too dangerous to be allowed in the US.

[mjs]

"paying for butt steak and getting filet mignon"

Which real world restaurant advertises this special?

[WolverinesA2]

We go to other nations for humanitarian reasons and to get cosmetic surgery thats too dangerous to be allowed in the US.

That is a flat out lie. In 2008, an estimated 1.5 million Americans went overseas for cheaper medical care. You're telling me that all of them went for plastic surgery? You'd be wrong.

[turkeycall]

Lorax quote: "I say put the f.....s out of business and start a single payer system, which we already have in Medicare. Simply expand it to include all Americans."

You have just described H.R. 676, The United States National Health Care Act [[or The Expanded and Improved Medicare For All Act). It was introduced by Rep. Conyers in 2007 and is co-sponsored by at least 42 other Representitives. It is a Bill To provide for comprehensive health insurance coverage for all United States residents.

A Senate version, S. 703, was introduced in 2009.

[Lorax]

That is a flat out lie. In 2008, an estimated 1.5 million Americans went overseas for cheaper medical care. You're telling me that all of them went for plastic surgery? You'd be wrong.

Right-on. I personally know people who go to Mexico for dental work, which is often not included in private insurance here. A root canal in Mexico costs about 350.00. Cosmetic dentistry such as caps and veneers cost less than half what it does here.

Like I've said before, bring down the costs of all tangible goods, and some services, and we all win.

[WolverinesA2]

http://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/03/27...vel/index.html

Sandra Giustina is a 61-year-old uninsured American. For three years she saved her money in hopes of affording heart surgery to correct her atrial fibrillation. "They [U.S. hospitals] told me it would be about $175,000, and there was just no way could I come up with that," Giustina said.


So, with a little digging online, she found several high quality hospitals vying for her business, at a fraction of the U.S. cost. Within a month, she was on a plane from her home in Las Vegas, Nevada, to New Delhi, India. Surgeons at Max Hospital fixed her heart for "under $10,000 total, including travel."

AMERICA, F*CK YEAH!

[Lorax]

http://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/03/27...vel/index.html



AMERICA, F*CK YEAH!

Again, right-on.

I am seeing so much of this, and thanks to technology, people have more information at their fingertips, and can really compare and contrast their choices- WORLDWIDE.

As Stephen Colbert said last night, the only gift with purchase you'll get out of your doctor these days is the pair of forceps left in your stomach after surgery. Rock on.

[mjs]

Excellent! You guys had me believing she was going to die but you showed me Dr. ccbattson was right. You now have your alternative health care and you can cancel the health care policy thats ripping you off. The savings should more than cover it. I sincerely hope you enjoy. Now that you showed there's no need for universal health care, I can continue to be happy with my mine along with the other 84% of Americans that are satisfied with theirs. Another crisis averted by an international economy.

[rb336]

Now that you showed there's no need for universal health care, I can continue to be happy with my mine along with the other 84% of Americans that are satisfied with theirs. Another crisis averted by an international economy.

guess what? under Obama's plan you will still have the coverage you are so happy about.

[mjs]

Sure, but under Obama's plan I'm also paying for other people's coverage. You just assured me that they don't need it and neither do you. Thanks for pointing out how it would just be wasteful government spending.

[rb336]

Sure, but under Obama's plan I'm also paying for other people's coverage. You just assured me that they don't need it and neither do you. Thanks for pointing out how it would just be wasteful government spending.

you are paying for it now in increased hospital fees to cover emergency-room-as-primary-care that so many are forced into. you are paying for it now in extortionist price-gouging from the anti-trust exempt insurance industry. you are paying for it now in the highest infant mortality rate in the developed [[and large parts of the developing) world. you are paying for it in higher medicine costs

[mjs]

To reacap-

If health care costs are high here because Americans live unhealthy life styles, what are the Feds doing about it other than making sure our kids have enough ketchup in the cafeteria?

So, if Blue Cross is slapping down Doctor's and denying bariatric care and mental health care and Obama will have the most inefficient organization in the country give everyone all of that, 40 acres, a mule, and a pony, how is he not going to raise taxes?

How does insuring some homeless guy make it cheaper?

Do you want lower costs or fewer denials?

Which real world restaurant advertises this special?

Response-

That, my friend, is a win-win-win situation, paying for butt steak and getting filet mignon.

Under Obama's plan you will still have the coverage you are so happy about.

[rb336]

which of your straw men do you want me to knock down first?

[Lorax]

What you folks don't seem to understand is that not everyone has the ability to even pay those lower costs out of country.

You need a passport, you need the ability to pay for airfare and hotels, and the procedures.

It's amazingly more affordable all inclusive, than staying here and letting yourself get Fristed by United Health Scare. That said, most still can't even afford that.

So what becomes of those unable to travel due to sickenss, or unable to pay?

Socialized medicine is the only way, single payer style. Dennis Kucinich and Bernie Sanders have it right.

You ladies who want to continue spending your enormous wealth getting ripped off at Neiman Marcus and seeing Dr. Botox will be happy to go on with business as usual.

[jams]

So, the rest of us aren't already paying for employer based health care?

[mjs]

Socialized medicine is the only way, single payer style.

So, we finally agree that the end game is a socialist form of care! Thank god! I thought we'd never get you to admit that.