"GM needs to relocate to the Sunbelt"

**Ocean2026** · June-26-09, 11:46 AM

Lombrowski - That Detroit grew in the early 20th century is not relevant to whether it will grow again. Not until air conditioning and mellower attitudes to the South did the sunbelt begin to grow. Almost every snow belt big city has lost population-almost and certainly Detroit Buffalo Cincy Cleveland and Pittsburgh.

As for Texas skilled labor - as a Texan you are entitled to a free Monthy Fiscal Notes [[ out of staters too I guess) Magazine which comes from the state controller. All sorts of statistics/demographics. In this month's issue they discuss this and Texas has the 2nd most productive labor force in dollars generated per worker. NY I think was first.

As for the weather-- you may be correct that Texas heat costs as much as Detroits cold in energy [[cept as you pointed out its cheaper here) , however how many work days are "Officially" missed because of hot weather as compared to snow -sleet etc. I say officially because I know sometimes I will step outside and then think better of it and go back to my air conditioned bedroom. Of course I'm not very productive anyway- unless you count the number of posts LOL

**atl_runner** · June-26-09, 12:26 PM

We don't want GM in Atlanta. Who would want that Albatross? Warren, MI is the only city that I know of that's courting them in any real way.

Not once has Atlanta media ever mentioned wanting GM to relocate here, so scratch us off the list please.

**jt1** · June-26-09, 12:37 PM

Originally Posted by Ocean2026

As for Texas skilled labor - as a Texan you are entitled to a free Monthy Fiscal Notes [[ out of staters too I guess) Magazine which comes from the state controller. All sorts of statistics/demographics. In this month's issue they discuss this and Texas has the 2nd most productive labor force in dollars generated per worker. NY I think was first.

So any productive workforce will automatically have the skill set required for GM HQ/R&D functions? Hell, if that were the case they should move to NY.

Another flaw in a ridiculous assumption.

**iheartthed** · June-26-09, 02:42 PM

Originally Posted by Ocean2026

Lombrowski - That Detroit grew in the early 20th century is not relevant to whether it will grow again. Not until air conditioning and mellower attitudes to the South did the sunbelt begin to grow. Almost every snow belt big city has lost population-almost and certainly Detroit Buffalo Cincy Cleveland and Pittsburgh.

As for Texas skilled labor - as a Texan you are entitled to a free Monthy Fiscal Notes [[ out of staters too I guess) Magazine which comes from the state controller. All sorts of statistics/demographics. In this month's issue they discuss this and Texas has the 2nd most productive labor force in dollars generated per worker. NY I think was first.

As for the weather-- you may be correct that Texas heat costs as much as Detroits cold in energy [[cept as you pointed out its cheaper here) , however how many work days are "Officially" missed because of hot weather as compared to snow -sleet etc. I say officially because I know sometimes I will step outside and then think better of it and go back to my air conditioned bedroom. Of course I'm not very productive anyway- unless you count the number of posts LOL

Eh, Texas and California may be the two most populated states in the country, but the Northeast and Midwest are by far the two most populated regions of the country. And that probably won't change in our lifetime. Also, nobody misses work because of snow. You're from NY, you should know that.

**Ocean2026** · June-26-09, 03:04 PM

Jt1 why so defensive? You probably think Detroit's loss of over 1 million people is just an accident and they are all dying to come back. Actually you probably are in denial that Detroit has lost population or has high crime - must be all a PR stunt by Texans eh? If only the world realized what a clean, crime free, low tax area Detroit was -they wouldn't be fleeing?

Channel your energy in a positive direction and see if the Lafayette bldg can be saved. That's what I like about Detroit - much nicer architecture than Dallas .. or Houston.. or San Antonio....

Lheart - you are probably correct snow storms do not result in much missed work in the upper midwest. Several years ago we had over an inch of snow here- of course the schools were closed and my little girl took our rabbit out to play-- white with brown spots - looked great.

**jt1** · June-26-09, 03:33 PM

Originally Posted by Ocean2026

Jt1 why so defensive? You probably think Detroit's loss of over 1 million people is just an accident and they are all dying to come back. Actually you probably are in denial that Detroit has lost population or has high crime - must be all a PR stunt by Texans eh? If only the world realized what a clean, crime free, low tax area Detroit was -they wouldn't be fleeing? .

It's not a matter of being defensive it is a matter of addressing your ignorant facts. The city and region are in severe trouble but it does not change your facts being completely wrong, specifically regarding the work force.

Nice attempt to change the topic though. Yuo should continue making assumptions since you are so wrong on them it is humorous. On a side note I have traveled much of this country for work and there is nothing that special about Dallas or the workers in Dallas.

Originally Posted by Ocean2026

Channel your energy in a positive direction and see if the Lafayette bldg can be saved. That's what I like about Detroit - much nicer architecture than Dallas .. or Houston.. or San Antonio.....

I'd prefer to channel my energy in pointing out your gross inaccuracies.

Originally Posted by Ocean2026

Lheart - you are probably correct snow storms do not result in much missed work in the upper midwest. Several years ago we had over an inch of snow here- of course the schools were closed and my little girl took our rabbit out to play-- white with brown spots - looked great.

So the fact that people in Texas stop working for a little snow is interesting and completely contradicts another one of the ignorant claims that you stated earlier.

In summary you posted a bunch of reasons why GM should move to Dallas and the are all pretty much inaccurate, then you have the gall to ask people why they are so defensive.

crawford · June-26-09, 06:31 PM

Originally Posted by Ocean2026

Jt1 why so defensive? You probably think Detroit's loss of over 1 million people is just an accident and they are all dying to come back.

I think the Texas heat has fried your brain. Detroit's population has grown [[slightly) in recent decades...unless of course you are talking strictly city limits, which would make your point even less relevant. All the Texas cities have lost core population; they just annexed their suburbs.

Originally Posted by Ocean2026

Actually you probably are in denial that Detroit has lost population or has high crime - must be all a PR stunt by Texans eh?

And Texas has even higher crime than Michigan. Maybe the gun nut lobby isn't quite influential enough in Texas. Perhaps you can mandate the carrying of loaded assault rifles on all Texas adults. Or maybe execute a few more innocents, handicapped and children.

**Trumpeteer** · June-26-09, 06:38 PM

Originally Posted by crawford

And Texas has even higher crime than Michigan. Maybe the gun nut lobby isn't quite influential enough in Texas. Perhaps you can mandate the carrying of loaded assault rifles on all Texas adults. Or maybe execute a few more innocents, handicapped and children.

WOW Crawford you really are going off the deep end

**mjs** · June-26-09, 06:39 PM

Either of you are free to support your population claim with a source.

crawford · June-26-09, 07:01 PM

Originally Posted by mjs

Either of you are free to support your population claim with a source.

Metro Detroit

CSA 2000 population- 5,357,538
CSA 2007 population- 5,405,908

And population growth was much stronger in the 1990's.

Sources are Decennial Census for 2000 and annual Census estimates [[American Community Survey) for 2007.

**East Detroit** · June-26-09, 08:36 PM

While Americans get regional and backstab each other... GM will move to China.

**Ocean2026** · June-26-09, 09:47 PM

Jtq We are talking about the city of Detroit and you said my post about you being in denial was false? Hey why not include Toronto in your definition of Detroit, that will boost your statistics. You probably like Crawford's Texas has more crime than Detroit. Finally you equate where I live with Dallas- I already said I like Detroit better than Dallas- however your Detroit education- figures Texas is just one place. Where I live that's South Texas - thats 7 hours south of Dallas- it snows only a few times a decade, so yes Schools will close. Dallas does not close down for snow. You are easily confused Dallas is NORTH - Rockport Corpus Christi is SOUTH - they have different climates- different cultures and different demographics.

This will help you Jti

1. Get a map of Texas and see where everything is.

2. Take an adult education class so you can read all the city names. If not find someone who can read and pronounce them for you.

3. Get the GED also, if possible, because your life options might include more than lying on message boards.

4. Anger management - there are probably deep seated reasons why you're so defensive and angry.

I admit in my posts where I made some wrong assumptions - big deal. I also like a lot about Detroit and once again you could have been helping save the Lafayette instead of creating facts to make Detroit something its not.

As for Crawford - you can walk anywhere in my county -day or night and not fear anything except getting lost. In fact in most years we have no murders and even per capita. The murders we do have are boyfriend - husband type [[ one employee v employer in 2003) things. I rarely lock my door and leave valuable things in my yard and the only "break in" I had in 11 years were two friends who were in my living room drinking a diet coke on a hot day. None of us would even know what "Scrappers" are unless we read this thread.

**jt1** · June-26-09, 10:23 PM

Ocean - I see that you like to resort to personal attacks when you are wrong. So I will address your ignorant post:

"Jtq We are talking about the city of Detroit and you said my post about you being in denial was false? Hey why not include Toronto in your definition of Detroit, that will boost your statistics."

- I stated nothing about population or cime. I referenced the ability of the workforce and the fit compared to Dallas. If you are going to argue with multiple people it helps to keep your arguments straight.

"You probably like Crawford's Texas has more crime than Detroit."

Nope. As usual your assumptions make you out to be an idiot. Additionally, Crawford compared the State of Michigan to the State of Texas. If you want to make snarky comments about getting maps I recommend you do the same.

"Finally you equate where I live with Dallas- I already said I like Detroit better than Dallas- however your Detroit education- figures Texas is just one place. Where I live that's South Texas - thats 7 hours south of Dallas- it snows only a few times a decade, so yes Schools will close. Dallas does not close down for snow. You are easily confused Dallas is NORTH - Rockport Corpus Christi is SOUTH - they have different climates- different cultures and different demographics."

- First I will happily compare education. From what I infer you have a JD. I will be completing my second masters soon so I don't think that you can claim educational superiority because I do not know where you live. An incorrect mistake on my part certainly does not justify your stupid little tirade.

"This will help you Jti

1. Get a map of Texas and see where everything is.

2. Take an adult education class so you can read all the city names. If not find someone who can read and pronounce them for you.

3. Get the GED also, if possible, because your life options might include more than lying on message boards."

Again, you have ignored the question about competent workforce for the HQ/R&D work and your incorrect assumptions originally stated in your justifications why they should move to Dallas. Personal attacks don't change the fact that you are wrong.

"4. Anger management - there are probably deep seated reasons why you're so defensive and angry."

Not really. I just like to point out when people are inaccurate and have no idea about the topic they are discussing. Seeing that you are becoming the king of personal attacks I would recommend that you learn to deal with being wrong.

"I admit in my posts where I made some wrong assumptions - big deal. I also like a lot about Detroit and once again you could have been helping save the Lafayette instead of creating facts to make Detroit something its not."

Two things to address here:

1. What should/could I be doing to help save the Lafayette? Given how the DEGC operates I would like to hear your amazing insight on how I could have helped 'save' it.
2. Where have I represented Detroit to be something it is not? The only thing that I have represented about METRO Detroit is that we have the workforce and knowledge base that GM needs. Just as metro Detroit does not have the proper workforce to run an oil company, Dallas does not have the workforce that GM needs at the corporate/R&D level. If I did misreprent Detroit I would like to see quotes.

The problem is that you are trying to support an argument that you nor the writer of the article know nothing about. It is best to know your limitations that way you would not make up claims to support a baseless argument such as this.

**Det_ard** · June-26-09, 10:42 PM

When you finish that second Masters, JT1, take a moment to learn how to use the Quote function. I've only got one Masters degree but somehow I figured it out.

**jt1** · June-26-09, 10:47 PM

Just being lazy. I appreciate the concern.

**Det_ard** · June-26-09, 10:50 PM

No problem, I was lazy too so rather than try to parse your jumble of words I just skipped the last 80%.

crawford · June-27-09, 12:31 AM

Originally Posted by Ocean2026

Jtq We are talking about the city of Detroit and you said my post about you being in denial was false? Hey why not include Toronto in your definition of Detroit, that will boost your statistics.

Have you ever heard of the U.S. Census? Your argument is with them, not me. If you think Toronto is part of metro Detroit, then be my guest. If you think that the OFFICIAL CENSUS NUMBERS are false, take it up with them. Fact is, Census shows Detroit is growing, and your original claim is fantasy.

Now if you really, truly ONLY want to compare city limits of Detroit with city limits in Houston, then I must ask if you aren't posting this from Paraguay or something. Just in case you really are this dense, I will explain the U.S. Constitution to you.

In short, we are a nation of states, with certain powers reserved for these states. One of these powers is the power to incorporate municipalities. Incorporation laws vary radically between states, and therefore one cannot accurately compare incorporated entites across state lines. Therefore, the Census has this funny thing they do where they count across municipal boundaries to find the real population of a city.

Using your metric, San Francisco is a suburb, not a city [[San Jose would be the main city in the Bay Area), Jacksonville, not Miami, is the dominant city in Florida, and Washington, DC does not exist [[it is not incorporated as a city).

If you look internationally, Sydney, Australia is a small village of a few thousand [[city limits only cover downtown), and Mexico City does not exist [[it's actually a state, not a city).

Houston city limits change every few years, due to incorporation. It currently covers about five times the size of Detroit city limits and only has twice the population. If you look at the census tracts that cover the original city, it has hemorraged population just like Detroit city limits.

In short, apples-to-apples comparisons of cities require common definitions of what constitutes a city.

**Ocean2026** · June-27-09, 08:35 AM

Detroit Population 2000-2005 Declines
A poster invited me to give data to support that Detroit is shrinking--ok

http://www.idcide.com/citydata/mi/detroit.htm

Detroit pop to 2008

http://www.clrsearch.com/RSS/Demogra...ion_And_Growth
---------------

http://www.muninetguide.com/states/m...ty/Detroit.php

---------------------------------
This one is about the entire state and demonstrates its not really the retired who leave as some like to believe

http://www.detnews.com/article/20090...staggers+state

This should be enough but it only takes a couple of minutes to find a batch more.

**3WC** · June-30-09, 05:21 PM

There have been some very amusing ir not outright funny comments on this thread. Crawford's primarily.

I have owned and operated businesses in Detroit for well over 30 years. I have also owned and operated businesses in Texas for over 20 years. I have flown in and out of DTW and DFW countless times over the years [[48 times in and out of DFW and 32 for DTW in 2008, well over 2,200,000 FF miles on AA alone.)

Comparing Michigan's business climate with Texas' is easy. MI can't begin to even come close to Texas in most categories.

Crawford opines on DFW. I doubt if he's ever been there. He say it takes 30 minutes gate-to-gate. Utter nonsense; even in the old days it didn't take that long, 20 years ago. A few years ago American built the $2 billion SKYLINK system between its 4 terminals. It's an amazing system. A passenger is not more than 10 minutes from any gate in any of the 4 terminals. Terminal D is the most modern terminal in the world; if one can afford to stay at the Grand Hyatt Hotel in that terminal, it wouldn't be a bad place to vacation. There are at least 6 McDonald's in the AA terminals and about a dozen Starbucks, if that's what one wants. There are probably 50 food places in the AA terminals altogether covering every price range. There is not one vacant storefront out of hundreds.

MI has a lot of things to offer but an attractive business climate is not one of them.

Crawford also made some snide false statement about Texas roads and electricity network. The road are 100 times better than Michigans [[no freeze-thaw cycles) and very well maintained. The electricity rates are much lower thans Michigans, at least in my commercial rate category [[$80,000/month). Over 3% of TX electricty is produced by wind generators for those of you who care about stuff like that.

Detroit Metro is not a bad airport and if folks are proud about such things. I say it qualifies for the right to brag. Road warriors will choose DFW every time however.

crawford · June-30-09, 05:30 PM

Originally Posted by 3WC

Road warriors will choose DFW every time however.

LOL, "Road Warrior"; enjoy the 1970's charm and marathon walks of DFW, bane of every business traveler's existence. Are you an AA shareholder or something?

And, I love it! DFW has a people-mover! Wowee!! Just like every other major airport on the planet! Sometimes it's even operational!

And no fewer than 6 McDonalds, eh? Pretty impressive! Tasty and unique grub that does Dallas proud. Definitely comes in handy now that American dropped all food service!

I fly Continental through Houston, thank you very much, and I don't know anyone who would willingly subject themselves to the horror that is DFW.

**iheartthed** · June-30-09, 06:23 PM

The last time I flew out of DFW, which was about 3 or 4 years ago, I was not impressed at all. It was confusing to navigate, and that tram they built to carry people between terminals felt raggedy. DFW was better than the Smith Terminal, yeah, but had nothing on the McNamara terminal. The McNamara Terminal can hold its own against any in this country.

**Trumpeteer** · June-30-09, 09:26 PM

[quote=crawford;39495]
And no fewer than 6 McDonalds, eh? Pretty impressive! Tasty and unique grub that does Dallas proud. Definitely comes in handy now that American dropped all food service!

Actually DFW has 107 restaurants, bars, coffee shops, delis, etc. Just look at their site.

**3WC** · July-03-09, 11:10 AM

Thanks, Trumpeteer, for suggesting Crawford check out DFW's website [[www.dfwairport.com); I did and it's quite interesting. I suggested there were 50 restaurants but I was referring my estimate as to the 2 AA terminals alone [[AA is in 2 other terminals as well.)

I doubt if Crawford will do that. [[Does he remind you of Danindc, another guy who was very snide and equally uninformed about most things?)

I had to laugh at C's characterization of the SKYLINK as just another "people mover." It cost far more than the entire cost of DTWs McNamara TERMINAL and is the state of the art airport transportation system in the world. The average ride is 5 minutes and the maximum time between the 2 farthest point in the 5 terminals is 9 minutes. [[I was slightly off in my estimates; those numbers are from the DFW website.)

**jt1** · July-03-09, 11:23 AM

How many terminals does DFW have. I have flown there many times and thought it was junk [[not comparing it to anything else).

Perhaps I was flying in/out of their version of the Smith terminal.

**3WC** · July-03-09, 01:36 PM

DFW has 5 terminals w/ 39 gates per terminal [[approx.)

I'm surprised you think it is junk. When was the last time you flew thru DFW?

It's true that for about a 4 or 5 year period connecting passengers on American Eagle had to go by bus to a new satellite terminal but that lasted for a few years years until Am. Eagle moved to new terminal B . That was a royal pain in the butt I admit.

I've been through most of the major airports in the country and maybe 4 overseas. Personally, DFW is my favorite but Tampa is very nice as is Orlando, Ord and a couple of others.

DFW has a lot of dough. A couple of years ago Chesapeake Energy paid DFW $186 million for an oil and gas lease on the approx 18,000 acre airport and drilled almost 300 Barnett Shale gas wells [[at a cost of about $3 million+ per well), with DFW retaining a 25% royalty interest. [[Word is, they weren't great wells.)

If you are interested go the the www.dfwairport.com website.