Bicyclist Attacks Driver, Gets Shot, Dies

[mkhopper]

Is the Do Not Walk signal relevant here? As a pedestrian who walks rather fast, I often ignore that signal. I thought it was more advisory than anything. Is it illegal for a pedestrian [[or bicyclist) to cross the street on a Do Not Walk signal?

I can't seem to find an answer to whether it's illegal or not one way or the other. I've always assumed that "Don't Walk" meant just that, do not attempt to cross and wait for the signal to change. Although I, along with many others I'm sure, ignore it and walk anyway if traffic is clear.

However, I did once see a Redford cop pull two pedestrians to the side after they had crossed the street against the light.

They couldn't have been more than 3 or 4 steps off of the curb when the light switched to a steady "Don't Walk". But instead of stepping back up onto the curb, they proceeded to walk, slowly, across the street, not caring at all that they were now impeding traffic.

[noise]

I'm not sure what you are advocating. But if you think he should have just fled, you're making a lot of assumptions about the situation.

Suppose the crazed guy striking you says 'I've got a gun, and I'm going to kill you now'. While your shielding your head, do you have the luxury of being able to know what he will really do next?

People who defend attackers have probably never been truly threatened by a crazoid. Its really easy to counsel peace from your couch. Much harder on the spot.

I'm not advocating anything. There can be a natural reaction to remove yourself from a dangerous situation. That's more than an "afterthought".

I was not in the driver's shoes, so I can't speak to those specifics.

[Pickford-Bentler]

I can't seem to find an answer to whether it's illegal or not one way or the other. I've always assumed that "Don't Walk" meant just that, do not attempt to cross and wait for the signal to change. Although I, along with many others I'm sure, ignore it and walk anyway if traffic is clear.

However, I did once see a Redford cop pull two pedestrians to the side after they had crossed the street against the light.

They couldn't have been more than 3 or 4 steps off of the curb when the light switched to a steady "Don't Walk". But instead of stepping back up onto the curb, they proceeded to walk, slowly, across the street, not caring at all that they were now impeding traffic.

I found this:

[QUOTEMust a cyclist ride on the sidewalk? Is it legal? What about crosswalks?
The MVC does not require bicyclists to ride on the sidewalk and we do not recommend it because of safety hazards to the bicyclist and other sidewalk users. However, Section 257.660c of the MVC says:
[[1) "An individual operating a bicycle upon a sidewalk or a pedestrian crosswalk shall yield the right-of-way to pedestrians and shall give an audible signal before overtaking and passing a pedestrian.
[[2) "An individual shall not operate a bicycle upon a sidewalk or a pedestrian crosswalk if that operation is prohibited by an official traffic control device.
[[3) "An individual lawfully operating a bicycle upon a sidewalk or a pedestrian crosswalk has all of the rights and responsibilities applicable to a pedestrian using that sidewalk or crosswalk."
][/QUOTE]

http://lmb.org/index.php/Education/m...icyclists.html


Cleary, he was in violation of number 3.

As a driver, I look for cyclists to ride through the cross-walk as I make a legal right turn. However, the cyclist was wrong and there was no sane reason for him to repeatedly punch the driver of the truck in the face.

If he had not perished, he would have been liable for assault, damage to the truck, and improper use of a bicycle.

[Detroitej72]

To be totally honest, I think the world would be a better place if some people did get punched once or twice.

The Earth will keep spinning and your black eye will heal.

Interesting that you think it's OK to punch somebody if you feel like it, but not right to protect yourself from some cray fool beating you senseless. How would you feel if the person getting beat up was your wife or mother?

Had the cyclist been more responsible, and not acting violently, he'd be alive today.

[noise]

Interesting that you think it's OK to punch somebody if you feel like it, but not right to protect yourself from some cray fool beating you senseless. How would you feel if the person getting beat up was your wife or mother?

Had the cyclist been more responsible, and not acting violently, he'd be alive today.

It's even more interesting that you think I think that. I never said it was not right to protect yourself. In fact, I said I don't disagree with that.

[gazhekwe]

No evidence has been presented to indicate the cyclist said or indicated he had a gun, no report that had one. Nothing indicates he was trying to kill the driver by punching him. It seems to me he would have grabbed for the driver's neck if had murder in mind.

It seems to me that legal possession of a gun is limiting choices to lethal ones.

Another note: Frontal head blows can create a rage reaction. I was told this by a doctor I saw after hitting my forehead really hard in an accident. I was really angry after the head blow, almost mad enough to start punching the idiot who hit me. Luckily, girly girl reason prevailed, and no fight happened.

[cla1945]

QUOTE=noise;338875]It's even more interesting that you think I think that. I never said it was not right to protect yourself. In fact, I said I don't disagree with that.[/QUOTE]

To be totally honest, I think the world would be a better place if some people did get punched once or twice.

The Earth will keep spinning and your black eye will heal.

Could you explain this theory further please, because it does seem that you say the world would be a better place if some people got punched once or twice.

...and, yes, life goes on in a perfect world, black eyes heal, a fractured skull from hard blows will only cause side effects you can learn to live with, or maybe a coma would be better.

[kenp]

Another note: Frontal head blows can create a rage reaction. I was told this by a doctor I saw after hitting my forehead really hard in an accident. I was really angry after the head blow, almost mad enough to start punching the idiot who hit me. Luckily, girly girl reason prevailed, and no fight happened.

This is true, the gunshot to the chest took care of his rage

[Jimaz]

I wonder what would have happened if he had fired a warning shot first? It may have been too cramped for that.

Twice lately I've had people turning into traffic right in front of me. Both times I had the right of way. Both times I was going 25 MPH [[on cruise control). Once the other guy sheepishly backed up. He must have assumed I had a stop sign. Came within inches of a collision.

Be careful!

[Big Dan]

Did the driver of the truck require any medical attention? What injuries did he receive?

[kryptonite]

This article includes photos of damage to the truck. Last I read the prosecutor's office is deciding now if criminal charges will be filed.

http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/B...z/-/index.html

[downtownguy]

I've always assumed that "Don't Walk" meant just that, do not attempt to cross and wait for the signal to change.

I agree. What I meant to ask was is it illegal to cross when the Don't Walk is flashing. As an example, I was crossing at a signal with a countdown last night. I was a few paces away when it started flashing "Don't Walk" with 12 seconds on the clock. I entered the crosswalk at 8 and had 1 second to spare when I reached the curb. But, I too, have been guilty of crossing against the red. And if a cop were nearby and so inclined, I might expect a ticket.

[downtownguy]

^^Perhaps the reason for my confusion is that if this is the type of intersection where the pedestrian signals run in tandem with the vehicular signals, then a steady Don't Walk would have also meant the driver had a red. If flashing, he would be expected to yield to anyone in the crosswalk. As a pedestrian, I have countless times had the right of way, yet had to play chicken with autos. However, if the signals at this location were solid red while vehicles still had a green, then, by all means, as a motorist I wouldn't be expecting someone in the crosswalk. That's why, when I'm the motorist, I am looking at the pedestrian signals and the vehicular signals. It allows me to judge when the light's about to turn yellow better, and also keeps my eye on the crosswalks.

[poobert]

^^^Society is a sick puppy today.

I hear you, but society has always had its problems. In fact, in nearly every way, the world is more peaceful, free, democratic, and less violent than it ever has been in human history.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/1...n_1026723.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datab...ace-index-2012

It is easy to feel under seige with the talking heads and the screaming fatasses on TV. Then we are blessed with 24 hour news which scrables to out-gore and out-terrify the next 24 hour garbage channel. I don't watch that junk and I refuse to live in fear.

[jcole]

Just, for a second, pretend the driver didn't have a gun. What would his options have been in dealing with the bicyclist? He could have rolled up the window, even with the attackers head in it. He could have driven away. He could have punched back. None of these actions would have killed the other guy. Might have hurt him a little, but not killed him. Instead, his first reaction was to pull out his gun and kill someone. Shoot first and ask questions later is not a way I like to live.
Oh, and leaving the scene of an accident when you are under attack is not illegal. It's self preservation. You leave and call the cops

[narnarnar]

I wonder what would have happened if he had fired a warning shot first?

CCW instructors teach to never fire a "warning shot." In MI you may use lethal force if you:
1) are in a place where you have a legal right to be
2) are not committing a crime
3) have both a reasonable and honest belief that you are in imminent jeopardy of severe bodily harm, sexual assault, or death.

You do not fire a gun to scare someone away. You leave it holstered or use it only in the above circumstance. A "warning shot" can wound or kill a bystander very easily and then you are responsible for that.

[jolla]

Just, for a second, pretend the driver didn't have a gun. What would his options have been in dealing with the bicyclist? He could have rolled up the window, even with the attackers head in it. He could have driven away. He could have punched back. None of these actions would have killed the other guy. Might have hurt him a little, but not killed him. Instead, his first reaction was to pull out his gun and kill someone. Shoot first and ask questions later is not a way I like to live.
Oh, and leaving the scene of an accident when you are under attack is not illegal. It's self preservation. You leave and call the cops

The most likely scenario is that the driver would have continued to be beaten, possibly to the point of brain damage.

I for one am glad the cyclist is dead; we need more assholes like him like we need a hole in the head.

[xequar]

Pushing the cyclist's behavior to the side for the moment, the driver's probably hosed. If the driver was still in the car, then he could have just as easily put up the window or driven away. His attorneys will have a hell of a time showing that the only option available to him was shooting the guy. Whether or not your first reaction would have been the same in that situation, my understanding of the concealed carry laws is that you have to exhaust methods of escape, provide warning that you're armed if possible, and that your attacker must be within a certain range. The range component was certainly satisfied, but I highly doubt a guy in a car that had the capability to draw his weapon and shoot the other guy truly made any effort to make an escape first.

[cla1945]

ACT NO. 309
PUBLIC ACTS OF 2006
EFFECTIVE DATE: OCTOBER 1, 2006


An ACT to clarify the rights and duties of self-defense and the defense of others.

The People of the State of Michigan enact:

Sec. 1. This act shall be known and may be cited as the "self-defense act".

Sec. 2. [[1) An individual who has not or is not engaged in the commission of a crime at the time he or she uses deadly force against another individual anywere he or she has the legal right to be with no duty to retreat if either of the following applies:
[[a) The individual honestly and reasonably believes that the use of deadly force is necessary to prevent the imminent death of or imminent great bodily harm to hmself or herself or to another individual.
[[b) The individual honestly and reasonably believes that the use of deadly force is necessary to prevent the imminent sexual assault of himself or herself or of another individual.
An individual who has not or is not engaged in the commission of a crime at the time he or she uses force other than deadly force may use force other than deadly force against another individual anywhere he or she has the legal right to be with no duty to retreat if he or she honestly and resaonably believes that the use of that force is necessary to defend himself or herself or another individual from the imminent unlawful use of force by another individual.

[poobert]

I for one am glad the cyclist is dead; we need more assholes like him like we need a hole in the head.

You are glad someone is dead because they are an asshole. How cheap life has become.

If being an asshole were a death sentence, then Metro Detroit would be reduced to ribbon farms once again.

I'm sure this guy had loved ones like you and I do. There are things like anger management and medication. I can't get over "I for one am glad the cyclist is dead" well, your mother must be very proud of you.

[Detwa]

To the people saying the driver should have driven away - you're assuming he had clearance to do so. We don't know if there was a car in front of him, or other people walking around, we don't know exactly what the scenario was that prevented him from flooring the pedal.

[splake]

Well said PB.
We need more cowards with CCWs validating themselves by killing unarmed people. If you need a gun to save you from a hand, you're the asshole, asshole.

[jcole]

To the people saying the driver should have driven away - you're assuming he had clearance to do so. We don't know if there was a car in front of him, or other people walking around, we don't know exactly what the scenario was that prevented him from flooring the pedal.

Ok, so theoretically he couldn't drive away. Roll up the window. Roll the other guys head in the window. Lock the door. Lay down on the seat. Move over to the passenger side. There are options beside putting a bullet in someones chest point blank

[Gannon]

Ok, so theoretically he couldn't drive away. Roll up the window. Roll the other guys head in the window. Lock the door. Lay down on the seat. Move over to the passenger side. There are options beside putting a bullet in someones chest point blank

When was the last time you tried to close a modern power window with anything obstructing it?! Especially those with an 'auto-up' or '-down' feature.

THEY WILL NOT CLOSE.

ANY resistance, and the window pops FULLY back open. Same with sunroofs. Hollywood's Automotive Guillotines are a figment of history now.


My old Audi was the first vehicle I ever noticed this on...and my girlfriend's SAAB just tested the same. My second-generation Saturn Vue will clamp down and cause some damage to someone attempting ingress or worse, though.


So, yeah, it depends upon the car he was driving, but it is quite likely he COULDN'T ROLL UP HIS WINDOW! Add adrenaline and ego, and voila!. Dead agressive cyclist.

[kenp]

Could very well be that when ahole #1 was pummeling ahole #2, Ahole #2 pulled a gun to scare off ahole #1 from further pummelation. But seeing this Ahole #1 tryed grabbing ahole #2's gun. Now all bets are off, no more ahole #1.
Ahole #1 was one tough dude. When I ride my bike I am usually quite winded. Add the fact that he had just got hit by a truck really suprises me he was able get up and start punching. However in hindsight, Ahole #2 should have got out of the car and kicked ahole #1's ass, no need for a gun.