Winery on Belle Isle?

[Lowell]

Welcome to the forum DetroitCityCellars and to firing line. I find the idea of a vineyard on Belle Isle intriguing and am favorably inclined toward it.

I think it would provide an educational and scenic addition to the island. As a wine aficionado [and a founding member of www.gangofpour.com a local wine tasting circle] I am a part time follower of wine and viticulture and had three varieties of vines at my former Highland Park home. The cycle of naked pruned vines in winter to full-fruited and leafed vines at harvest time in September is a sight to behold.

The main problem, as you can gather here, is that Belle Isle aficionados [I'm one too] are fiercely defensive anything that might be perceived as commercial or for profit while taking away parkland. This ranges from a once grand proposal to take over parts of the island for casinos and associated hotels down to ice cream vendors. Be prepared to endure a lot heat from that direction as you already are. Detroit aficionados likewise leery of anyone perceived as an outsider coming in a with grand ideas.

Let's consider the difference between the allowance of the Grand Prix and
DetroitCityCellars' vineyard. The former paved over several acres creating a featureless concrete eyesore that gets used a couple of times a year. A vineyard will blend with the earth and even be restorative. It will add scenic and enlightening interest for pedestrians and bikers.

DetroitCityCellars, to massage your situation, consider the following. I once spent a month in the Weinstrasse area ['Wine Road' that parallels the Rhine in Alsace]. While making the painting below of the Village of Katzenthal, I met the mayor who by chance was out jogging. One of the most interesting things I learned was that shared ownership of the vinyards was very common. Just about every household in the village owned some of the vines, sometimes only 3 or 4.

If you could offer similar involvement scenarios some interesting win-win situations could arise. Let's say, MLK High School had a few vines that an interested student group could care for, learn viticulture while getting involved in Belle Isle. Maybe others could become Belle Isle benefactor sponsor-investors by being enticed into sponsoring a vine with any profit share going to the Belle Isle Conservancy. I'd sponsor a vine for that. Just thinking aloud...

[Detroitnerd]

How is it that you can express yourself so clearly, yet not understand what the word lease means?

It takes many years to get a vineyard going, and the best of them longer. So we're already talking about a long lease, if you know what you're doing. I've heard people at the Yacht Club talk about their deal with the city. Will it be as fair as theirs? A 99-year lease at a dollar a year? There are good reasons why people oppose these sorts of plans, especially when they are pursued in partnership with a particularly oily city official...

Really, even a lease seems unfair. Frankly, anything that dilutes the purpose of the island -- to be used recreationally for city residents -- rubs me raw. I know what vineyards are. They are areas that are cordoned off and change the purpose of the surrounding land.

Once again, private property will currently not be zoned for Agricutural purposes within the city of Detroit. You must know this?

And, since I've followed the arguments closely, I know that this was never an issue for you. Like anyone who wants to grow a vineyard, you want cool breezes all spring to hold off production, likely a south-facing slope to promote growth and aid drainage, and will probably want to lay down some permanent mulch, maybe even rock.

We can grow wonderul grapes here in SE michigan, in particular Detroit. Its a job creator, it will promote tourism to Belle Isle and Detroit as a whole, it will be good for the entire Michigan Wine Industry, it will be a connection to our agrarian roots in Detroits past, it is embracing and celebrating a profession and a lifestyle that is older yet present in the founding of Detroit.

That is a nice pitch. I have heard people over and over again talking about how Belle Isle should be a tourist attraction. I shake my head at that. Belle Isle, traditionally, was a place where Detroiters who didn't have air conditioning went to sleep at night. We used to be able to traverse it day and night. It never closed. Now we're seeing it closed at night, perhaps closed to the city's poor, and, finally, somebody coming in to MAKE MONEY. In an time when we're seeing the public realm increasingly privatized, defunded and otherwise diluted, you have to understand that some people, including little old me, are going to take this as an assault on the public good and the common welfare.

Because, despite all your assurances that this is great for everybody, win-win, a connection to our past and all that, you wouldn't be doing this unless it made financial sense to you. The MEDC wouldn't promote it unless it was a money-maker. You wouldn't have the patronage of certain city officials unless they stood to gain by it.

So you have a business plan, to make money, and to use an area devoted to recreation for more than 120 years for another purpose: making money. To take the casino and, under the auspices of "opening it to the public" turn it into your personal tasting room.

This is a grab, pure and simple.

If you were negotiating with another businessperson, they'd want to see all your papers, all your plans first, and then they'd make you an offer and make you pay dearly. Instead, you're dealing with a city on the ropes, counting on the hopes and dreams of a lot of boosters and well-wishers to push your plan through. That's why you are here to post this happy-talk, and few specifics.

Think about that for a moment, boosters. Have you seen this plan? How many questions have you asked? If somebody were proposing this in Shain Park, would you think this is win-win? Or would you have a lot of questions to ask first?

For instance, how long is the lease? How much per annum would the lease on the land and the casino cost you? What taxes, if any, would be paid to the city?

What guarantees would there be that the jobs on your vineyard would go to city residents?

Will your books be open to public inspection, or closed, as many "public-private partnerships" are?

Also, we're just beginning to see fox populations on the island rebound. What is the wildlife management plan, for instance? Doesn't it seem to be at cross purposes to have a place where we want to encourage wildlife but also to deter wildlife from consuming crops?

What pesticides will be used? Can we expect a runoff of methyl bromide into the Detroit River? Where is the environmental impact statement?

How will the vineyard be policed? Will there be guards to keep people out? Fences? What will public access be like?

What if the plan fails? What if the terroir or climate are not conducive to grape-growing? Who will restore the land? Is this in writing?

These are just a few questions even those who are favorably inclined to your plans MUST SEE. And I haven't seen anybody ask them.

You can write off my support for this plan, of course. But others would do well to ask many questions and be very skeptical. We have a long history in Detroit of approving something that seems cool, without understanding what it means. Oohing and aahing over a vineyard is little different from casting your vote for somebody because their last name is Young. What's the platform? What are the specifics? I don't even hear any tough questions.

And that's even more disturbing than the plan itself.

[Lowell]

Another thought should the vineyard come to pass is that it would have an interesting biblical essence. "They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks," as the famous verse from Isiah reads.

The spears in this case were missiles - the area of the proposed vineyard was once the site of a Nike anti-aircraft missile base - probably the most infamous land grab on BI.

[corktownyuppie]

Oohing and aahing over a vineyard is little different from casting your vote for somebody because their last name is Young. What's the platform? What are the specifics? I don't even hear any tough questions.

I agree with you on this. While we disagree on our inclination to accept or reject the plan, I would stop short on giving it full endorsement until the plan is completely and totally vetted. Any thing less than that is foolish.

Where I disagree with you is on this...

That is a nice pitch. I have heard people over and over again talking about how Belle Isle should be a tourist attraction. I shake my head at that. Belle Isle, traditionally, was a place where Detroiters who didn't have air conditioning went to sleep at night. We used to be able to traverse it day and night. It never closed. Now we're seeing it closed at night, perhaps closed to the city's poor, and, finally, somebody coming in to MAKE MONEY. In an time when we're seeing the public realm increasingly privatized, defunded and otherwise diluted, you have to understand that some people, including little old me, are going to take this as an assault on the public good and the common welfare.

You refer to what Belle Isle traditionally was.

I have respect for tradition, though I am never married to it when it holds us back. But moreover, that tradition of Belle Isle may be its most recent tradition, but it's hardly the original intent and tradition historically.

We could say that the Train Station and Packard Plant have traditionally been a place where tourists and novelty seekers have explored the ruins of a dying industry.

Belle Isle WAS a tourist attraction. In fact, it was a GREAT tourist attraction. It was alive and vibrant as was Detroit's heyday.

I understand that you see this as an assault on the poor, and I also understand why. But I think it's a misunderstanding to say that the island was traditionally a place for the poor. It was traditionally a place for everyone. A great place for everyone.

And I think that we should be willing to at least entertain any ideas of bringing back that tradition of life and energy back to the island.

[jt1]

For instance, how long is the lease? How much per annum would the lease on the land and the casino cost you? What taxes, if any, would be paid to the city?

What guarantees would there be that the jobs on your vineyard would go to city residents?

Will your books be open to public inspection, or closed, as many "public-private partnerships" are?

Also, we're just beginning to see fox populations on the island rebound. What is the wildlife management plan, for instance? Doesn't it seem to be at cross purposes to have a place where we want to encourage wildlife but also to deter wildlife from consuming crops?

What pesticides will be used? Can we expect a runoff of methyl bromide into the Detroit River? Where is the environmental impact statement?

How will the vineyard be policed? Will there be guards to keep people out? Fences? What will public access be like?

What if the plan fails? What if the terroir or climate are not conducive to grape-growing? Who will restore the land? Is this in writing?

The above all sound like legitimate questions for DetroitCityCellars. we'll see if he answers them. As someone that hasn't been involved in this argument, I am now asking for the answers to the above questions.

More importantly, I am asking for any documentation regarding the proposal or what has been submitted. Words on a message board only amount to so much.

[DetroitCityCellars]

Welcome to the forum DetroitCityCellars and to firing line. I find the idea of a vineyard on Belle Isle intriguing and am favorably inclined toward it.

I think it would provide an educational and scenic addition to the island. As a wine aficionado [and a founding member of www.gangofpour.com a local wine tasting circle] I am a part time follower of wine and viticulture and had three varieties of vines at my former Highland Park home. The cycle of naked pruned vines in winter to full-fruited and leafed vines at harvest time in September is a sight to behold.

The main problem, as you can gather here, is that Belle Isle aficionados [I'm one too] are fiercely defensive anything that might be perceived as commercial or for profit while taking away parkland. This ranges from a once grand proposal to take over parts of the island for casinos and associated hotels down to ice cream vendors. Be prepared to endure a lot heat from that direction as you already are. Detroit aficionados likewise leery of anyone perceived as an outsider coming in a with grand ideas.

Let's consider the difference between the allowance of the Grand Prix and
DetroitCityCellars' vineyard. The former paved over several acres creating a featureless concrete eyesore that gets used a couple of times a year. A vineyard will blend with the earth and even be restorative. It will add scenic and enlightening interest for pedestrians and bikers.

DetroitCityCellars, to massage your situation, consider the following. I once spent a month in the Weinstrasse area ['Wine Road' that parallels the Rhine in Alsace]. While making the painting below of the Village of Katzenthal, I met the mayor who by chance was out jogging. One of the most interesting things I learned was that shared ownership of the vinyards was very common. Just about every household in the village owned some of the vines, sometimes only 3 or 4.

If you could offer similar involvement scenarios some interesting win-win situations could arise. Let's say, MLK High School had a few vines that an interested student group could care for, learn viticulture while getting involved in Belle Isle. Maybe others could become Belle Isle benefactor sponsor-investors by being enticed into sponsoring a vine with any profit share going to the Belle Isle Conservancy. I'd sponsor a vine for that. Just thinking aloud...

Thanks Lowell. I think thats a great idea regarding the vines. Running parallel to the vineyard on Belle Isle is the creation of a grape growing co-operative within the city. We are looking to work in conjunction with MSU to help residents establish neighborhood vineyards as well as train them on proper viticultural techniques. We at Detroit City Cellars would then sign 5 year contarcts with the the growers to buy there fruit each harvest. I'm not saying that someone can make a living of of an acre of grapes, but it will provide supplememtal income as well as adding value to the area. Of course, this is dependent on the city to zone for Ag purposes, which they will not currently do. Maybe a successful vineyard and winery on Belle Isle would help to convince them otherwise?

In regards to Detroit being a good place to grow grapes, I grow a half acre of gnarly, rugged, intense fruit bearing Pinot Noir,in Albion, MI. Detroit is far better of a viticultural region than Albion. Look at a USDA plant hardiness zone map, and you will see the clear demarcation of the coast line of Lake St. Clair, through the Detroit River and down to the Ohio Border. This map, shows the moderating effect of these bodies of water on the region as a whole. You will also note that it is the only region in the state that has a 6b zone besides the highly touted leelenau peninsuala and areas of the Lake Michigan Shore.

http://planthardiness.ars.usda.gov/P...s/72DPI/mi.jpg

It would be great if I could do a guided tasting with your group. I have recently released new wines under the Lynn Aleksandr label, and would like to see what your group thinks. I have a 2010 Cabernet Sauvignon, 2011 Pinot Grigio, a 2011 Vidal Blanc. 100% Michigan Fruit. 100% made by me.

Your painting is great. Would you like to hang it in one of our tasting rooms?

[Zacha341]

Vineyard dreams... ahh. What a wonderful painting... let's look at that one more time. NICE!

[Jimaz]

Good job, Ambassador Lowell.

[townonenorth]

According to this version of the USDA map, 6b is pretty much anywhere in the Metro area besides the Pointes and west of Southfield. Grape time!

http://www.plantmaps.com/interactive...diness-map.php

[DetroitCityCellars]

It takes many years to get a vineyard going, and the best of them longer. So we're already talking about a long lease, if you know what you're doing. I've heard people at the Yacht Club talk about their deal with the city. Will it be as fair as theirs? A 99-year lease at a dollar a year? There are good reasons why people oppose these sorts of plans, especially when they are pursued in partnership with a particularly oily city official...

Dnerd, I would love to take the time this evening to answer all your questions. I can't tell you how happy I am, that after a few days of banter, you are finally interested in facts.

The land that the DYC rests on is NOT Belle Isle. It is a man made island and it has been fully paid for. Please show me a copy of this lease you are referring to? That type of deal would be something to get pissed off about. Really Dnerd? Who are these "people" that you are referring to?

[p69rrh51]

Dnerd, I would love to take the time this evening to answer all your questions. I can't tell you how happy I am, that after a few days of banter, you are finally interested in facts.

The land that the DYC rests on is NOT Belle Isle. It is a man made island and it has been fully paid for. Please show me a copy of this lease you are referring to? That type of deal would be something to get pissed off about. Really Dnerd? Who are these "people" that you are referring to?

The leases for both the Detroit Boat Club and the Detroit Yacht Club were a dollar a year both were put into place at the turn of the 20th century. I would be suprised if the DYC still pays that dollar a year lease. Although everyone forgets both clubs had to/still do pay property taxes.

[townonenorth]

The leases for both the Detroit Boat Club and the Detroit Yacht Club were a dollar a year both were put into place at the turn of the 20th century. I would be suprised if the DYC still pays that dollar a year lease. Although everyone forgets both clubs had to/still do pay property taxes.

Key here is the fact that they are paying much more now. Boat Club is not in the building anymore. Yacht club is still going.

The Detroit Yacht Club came through this difficult period and continues to offers its members ideal facilities. The Detroit Boat Club was not so fortune. In 1991, the city announced that the rent charged the Detroit Boat Club would increase from $1 per year to $100,000. About three years later, the organization went into bankruptcy, although some blame administrative mismanagement as much as the city’s increase in rent. In 1996, the remnants of the Detroit Boat Club abandoned the building and announced that they would look for another home

http://detroit1701.org/Detroit%20Boat%20Club.html

[DetroitCityCellars]

Key here is the fact that they are paying much more now. Boat Club is not in the building anymore. Yacht club is still going.


http://detroit1701.org/Detroit%20Boat%20Club.html

Th DBC is on the island but the DYC is not.

[townonenorth]

Th DBC is on the island but the DYC is not.

http://books.google.com/books?id=yjM...0lease&f=false

[townonenorth]

Also, this.

http://books.google.com/books?id=-V6...0lease&f=false

[townonenorth]

come to think of it, I think I found something interesting. In the Google book that I published first here, I noticed some entries. Here's a excerpt from the Detroit Annual Report of Department of Parks and Boulevards, 1894. Link below.

The Casino privileges were handled differently this year than heretofore. The Casino on Belle Isle was leased for a consideration of 15^ of all gross receipts instead of a fixed rental. Its management has been satisfactory and the income from this source has been since April 1st, $2,931.30.This change was made to take from the lessee the temptation to impose upon the public in order to pay his rent and have a little left. The Pavilion on Belle Isle was let separately from the Casino this year for the first time, and it has been kept as a place of refreshment without beer or spirituous liquors, and has paid since April ist,$250.The Bath House under the charge of Mr. Charles A. King was well kept, well patronized and popular. The number of bathers was 50,585.The letting of bicycles has come to be one of the paying privileges leased by the Commission, and to accommodate bicycle riders many extra seats were placed on the upper end of Belle Isle and a few along the Boulevard. If the popularity of the wheel continues, a shelter or pavilion and checkroom are contemplated for the further convenience of riders.

The Boating has been interfered with by low water in the canals and by the greater popularity of the bicycle.The Bath House and the Casino, Pavilion, Boating and Bicycle privileges each yielded a revenue to the Commission this year.

So, Dnerd, HISTORICALLY, this is probably a valid purpose for the sainted Island....

http://books.google.com/books?id=i2k...20isle&f=false

Edit. Not to mention in 1912 or 1913, when they had the following list of service charges [[on top of leases I assume) for services leased by vendors.

Service Charges—
Phaetons, Belle Isle $ 21,329 01 Bath House, Belle Isle 13,971 60
Inspection permits 547 57 Clara Bath House 4,648 66
Labor and material 622 88 Casino service, Belle Isle 5,717 93
Casino service, Skating Pavilion 6,466 86
Casino service, Palmer Park 1,502 21
Damages to property 92 86
Street auto service 4,469 38
Total 59,368 96

http://books.google.com/books?id=Tb1...20isle&f=false

Phaetons, BTW are probably the horse carts.

And, this....

DETROIT.

Belle Isle Park.—One refectory; leased for $6,000, including wine and liquor privileges.

And by 1915 the city took them all over as city functions.

[Detroitnerd]

Dnerd, I would love to take the time this evening to answer all your questions. I can't tell you how happy I am, that after a few days of banter, you are finally interested in facts.

I'm not "finally interested in facts" [[I doubt they'll change my mind) but I'm pointing out the paucity of facts, which ought to disturb anybody.

The land that the DYC rests on is NOT Belle Isle. It is a man made island and it has been fully paid for. Please show me a copy of this lease you are referring to? That type of deal would be something to get pissed off about. Really Dnerd? Who are these "people" that you are referring to?

Now who wants to see documentation? Hmmmm? Hahaha.

Also, let's note that this is a tiny side issue compared to the list of questions, still not addressed, still not answered.

Maybe my information about the DYC is anecdotal, but I trust it because, when I had dinner with a commodore of the DYC, one who was said to be especially up on the history of the DYC, he told me that the city wanted to build a swimming beach back in the 1910s, but the current was too swift, so the millionaires proposed building a man-made island [[only in the most narrow view would this island not be part of Belle Isle), to break the current, allowing for the swimming beach. And, yes, it was the commodore who told me about the leasing deal with the city, so, you know, I kind of thought he knew a thing or two about it, that they may have built it, but that the land is somehow still leased from the city, straight from the commodore's mouth.

Anyway, as in our last exchange, you lash out on side issues. The questions about you and your business plan linger ...

[Detroitnerd]

come to think of it, I think I found something interesting. In the Google book that I published first here, I noticed some entries. Here's a excerpt from the Detroit Annual Report of Department of Parks and Boulevards, 1894. Link below.

That is interesting. Of course, that was before the growth of the public sphere. Instead of spending money for services and amenities, typically the government would contract a lease with a private company, such as the street railway companies [[from the 1850s to the 1920s, on moderate 30-year leases). The idea being that the company would perform a service that the city government did not see as its job.

The thing is, that public-private relationship began to change in the 1890s through the 1920s, especially under the guidance of politicians like Hazen Pingree, who argued that the government must be involved so that private contractors don't monopolize public purposes. This kind of battle culminated in Detroit buying out the private streetcars in 1922. Nationally, this kind of battle culminated in the New Deal in the 1930s, when government took a role expanding the public realm to where governments big and small did not need to rely on concessions and leases granted private companies.

So, in a way, those lease agreements are antiquated relics from the day before the public realm became important and powerful.

Another relic of that era is the privately owned Ambassador Bridge. Those things are grandfathered in sometimes. But just because they did exist, or still exist as legal fictions, should we propose going forward with 19th century plans? Why not let Matty build another privately owned bridge, for instance? It has a precedent, right?

Sometimes, just because something has a precedent doesn't mean it's the right thing to do.

[corktownyuppie]

Sometimes, just because something has a precedent doesn't mean it's the right thing to do.

Agreed. And the corrolary is true as well...just because it lacks precedent doesn't mean it's the wrong thing to do as well.

I take issue with the Department of Defense leasing space on Belle Isle -- even though it funds operating costs of the island -- because I believe that it takes away from the general enjoyment of the people on the island. I am generally in support of private operators leasing from space on the island if it something that will provide a benefit to the people who are on the park and also naturally "fits" within the existing condition of the park.

How do you define "fit"? I think that's up for debate. Though it's reasonable to believe that an anti-missile defense system has much less fit than, say, a botanical garden attraction.

In either case, neither the intention nor the byproduct should require any of the poor to be unable to enjoy the park..that is still important to me.

[townonenorth]

That is interesting. Of course, that was before the growth of the public sphere. Instead of spending money for services and amenities, typically the government would contract a lease with a private company, such as the street railway companies [[from the 1850s to the 1920s, on moderate 30-year leases). The idea being that the company would perform a service that the city government did not see as its job.

The thing is, that public-private relationship began to change in the 1890s through the 1920s, especially under the guidance of politicians like Hazen Pingree, who argued that the government must be involved so that private contractors don't monopolize public purposes. This kind of battle culminated in Detroit buying out the private streetcars in 1922. Nationally, this kind of battle culminated in the New Deal in the 1930s, when government took a role expanding the public realm to where governments big and small did not need to rely on concessions and leases granted private companies.

So, in a way, those lease agreements are antiquated relics from the day before the public realm became important and powerful.

Another relic of that era is the privately owned Ambassador Bridge. Those things are grandfathered in sometimes. But just because they did exist, or still exist as legal fictions, should we propose going forward with 19th century plans? Why not let Matty build another privately owned bridge, for instance? It has a precedent, right?

Sometimes, just because something has a precedent doesn't mean it's the right thing to do.

The thing wrong with the above sentiments is the basic assumption that Detroit's capabilities are on a par with what was considered the norm from the 20's through the 60's. Detroit has more in common with the Detroit of the 1890's through 1910's than any other era. So, it makes perfect sense for partnerships to be brought to fruition, simply because Detroit doesn't possess the capability to provide the services on their own.

Personally, I think that the grape growing activity could be spread all over Metro Detroit, which has the same climate as Belle Isle. If he wants to lease the Casino for wine tastings, I'm sure he can do that without grapes being grown on the island. I think it's more symbolic than anything else. I looked into some grape plants, and I may replace the wild grapes in my yard with those of the more edible variety.

[Detroitnerd]

The thing wrong with the above sentiments is the basic assumption that Detroit's capabilities are on a par with what was considered the norm from the 20's through the 60's.

Another thing wrong with all of this is the assumption that a profit-making vineyard for a would be entrepreneur has any public purpose whatsoever.

Now, lending me a kick-ass Phaeton to ride around Belle Isle is a sick public purpose!

"Eat my dust, pedestrians!"

[townonenorth]

Another thing wrong with all of this is the assumption that a profit-making vineyard for a would be entrepreneur has any public purpose whatsoever.

Now, lending me a kick-ass Phaeton to ride around Belle Isle is a sick public purpose!

"Eat my dust, pedestrians!"

Been there, done that.

[DetroitCityCellars]

I'm not "finally interested in facts" [[I doubt they'll change my mind) but I'm pointing out the paucity of facts, which ought to disturb anybody.

Now who wants to see documentation? Hmmmm? Hahaha.

Also, let's note that this is a tiny side issue compared to the list of questions, still not addressed, still not answered.

Maybe my information about the DYC is anecdotal, but I trust it because, when I had dinner with a commodore of the DYC, one who was said to be especially up on the history of the DYC, he told me that the city wanted to build a swimming beach back in the 1910s, but the current was too swift, so the millionaires proposed building a man-made island [[only in the most narrow view would this island not be part of Belle Isle), to break the current, allowing for the swimming beach. And, yes, it was the commodore who told me about the leasing deal with the city, so, you know, I kind of thought he knew a thing or two about it, that they may have built it, but that the land is somehow still leased from the city, straight from the commodore's mouth.

Anyway, as in our last exchange, you lash out on side issues. The questions about you and your business plan linger ...

Dnerd, my apologies for being curt or flip. My frustrations regarding moving this project forward should never be directed at residents who are voicing concern. I hear your concerns, in fact, i think if you and i sat down for a cup of coffee, we would probably see eye to eye on a range issues, just not this one.

One of the most important question that you asked was regarding access to the vineyard. The plan calls for leaving the vineyard unguarded and unfenced so that all visitors to the island have 100% free access to the site.

I will post more this evening.

[DetroitCityCellars]

It takes many years to get a vineyard going, and the best of them longer. So we're already talking about a long lease, if you know what you're doing.

Exactly. A vineyard does take years to establish. Isnt that the type of investment that you want to see in the city. Look at it as a metaphor. A business does lay roots, a business, which is dedicated to its community and providing a living for its employees, does take time to develop. This is not some project that turns a quick buck and then everyone walks away from the table. To plant a vineyard is to plant oneself.

[MrMister]

You possibly have a very good idea with the urban vineyard DetroitCityCellars.
You just have to understand that Detroiters are especially on edge right now.
We are just worried that if we're not very careful, the few jewels that we have left will be sold right under our noses.

You may find a lot more supporters for an idea that involved getting special agricultural exemptions for a non Detroit taxpayer built and maintained site. [[Like, anywhere... except belle isle)

Hantz farms [[however controversial) seems to be very close to creating a way for themselves [[and others) to receive the zoning necessary for for-profit agriculture.

I'd love to see a riverfront vineyard, but that lighthouse field has been a part of my life since i was a little boy, and I'm not interested in showing up one day for a walk, and finding a fence.

Ditch the Belle isle idea, and I'd bet you could be planting next spring.