Winery on Belle Isle?

[jcole]

Look at all there is in Central Park...which is smaller than Belle Isle. Who could possibly be against this?

http://www.centralparknyc.org/visit/things-to-see/

Stromberg2

Not to mention that Central Park and Belle Isle were designed by the same man. Look what New York has managed to maintain for over a hundred years and then look at Belle Isle

[stromberg2]

Think about it...not ONE single little shop or cart that serves food.

Stromberg2

[townonenorth]

Think about it...not ONE single little shop or cart that serves food.

Stromberg2

I'm assuming that you are speaking of Belle Isle in the above statement. There once was plenty of places to eat, Casino, the Strand, the ice skating concession, etc.

Also notice that Diana Ross has her own PLAYGROUND in Central Park, for God's sake. What the hell? Nothing like wiping the dirt off the soles of your shoes when leaving, huh, Diana?

[Detroitnerd]

As for Hantz, I believe he lives in Indian Village, not out of state. So it appeared that Dnerd was taking a careless stab at me.

Oh, no, I am taking very careful stabs at your business plan. I am against it, and have explained my reasons adequately. And, as you can see by this discussion, I am not alone. I imagine you're joining this forum -- where we debate things, sometimes quite hotly, and have been for years -- just to do a little damage control. So I imagine you're totally unfamiliar with the kind of discussion that goes on here. This is a normal, typical, Detroityes discussion. If you don't like it, get off the forum. You want to do a public deal with the city government, and that makes you a public figure, open to debate, discussion, and, quite frankly, ridicule. Don't like it? Go grow your grapes somewhere else where you're not threatening the people's enjoyment.

And we have been working with Charles Pugh and his staff for almost two years on this. He and his office have been great to work with, and to me, they embody the massive potential of Detroit.

The fact that you would associate yourself with Pugh is more damning than anything I could say.

[DetroitCityCellars]

Oh, no, I am taking very careful stabs at your business plan. I am against it, and have explained my reasons adequately. And, as you can see by this discussion, I am not alone. I imagine you're joining this forum -- where we debate things, sometimes quite hotly, and have been for years -- just to do a little damage control. So I imagine you're totally unfamiliar with the kind of discussion that goes on here. This is a normal, typical, Detroityes discussion. If you don't like it, get off the forum. You want to do a public deal with the city government, and that makes you a public figure, open to debate, discussion, and, quite frankly, ridicule. Don't like it? Go grow your grapes somewhere else where you're not threatening the people's enjoyment.



The fact that you would associate yourself with Pugh is more damning than anything I could say.

I myself enjoy a lively debate based on facts, not conjecture and hearsay.

Since you are so opposed, I invite you to visit our vineyards and winery in the Irish Hills. I would love to give you a tour. I would be curious to see if you still felt that a vineyard was "threatening the peoples enjoyment" as opposed to potentially adding to there experience.

[Detroitnerd]

I myself enjoy a lively debate based on facts, not conjecture and hearsay.

Since you are so opposed, I invite you to visit our vineyards and winery in the Irish Hills. I would love to give you a tour. I would be curious to see if you still felt that a vineyard was "threatening the peoples enjoyment" as opposed to potentially adding to there experience.

Sorry, but this has all the earmarks of a sweetheart deal with a developer-friendly councilperson, backed by outstate forces [[MEDC) to grab precious recreational land -- that should be dedicated to city residents -- to produce profits for a private investor. And that's something we've seen proposed WAY too many times in Detroit.

The astonishing thing is that you expect anybody living here and paying taxes in Detroit to support this sort of land grab. I strongly urge you to give up this ridiculous plan and wish you the best of luck with your vineyards where they belong: on private property.

[Eber Brock Ward]

DetroitCityCellars, can you confirm or deny something for us?

In this picture --



-- the land behind Mr. Kownacki is just grassland. Is there a site plan or anything similar that sets forth where a potential winery would be, including the current use and status of the land?

Because if it's just overgrown grassland like that, I think DNerd's argument falls apart, because the land is not "precious recreational land" but rather land upon which no one is recreating, especially since it doesn't appear to be trampled down in the least.

However, if it's currently a picnic area or something else that is currently being used as "recreational land", I think he/she has a leg to stand on.

If, indeed, there's "nothing going on" where the grapes/winery would be, then one really has to stretch to make a non-tenuous argument against the project.

[Detroitnerd]

What the fuck is wrong with grassland to walk through, to walk your dog through, to lie down in and be hidden and watch the sun and clouds? There are all kinds of environments on Belle Isle and they are there for recreation: little-traversed paths, athletic fields, meandering fields, breakwaters where foxes live, open spaces for grilling and kite-flying. Maybe you're unfamiliar with the purposes of parks for strolling and seclusion, communing with nature, but, basically, just because a piece of land doesn't look like a well-manicured Super-Soaker Fun Zone doesn't mean it isn't doing its public job.

[Eber Brock Ward]

There is ample, ample, ample grassland on Belle Isle. Do you disagree with this?

Building on that, would *anyone* that wants to "walk through, walk their dog through, lie down in and be hidden in and watch the sun and clouds" in grassland be denied the opportunity to do so were grapes to be planted in this particular stretch of grassland?

Seems like a tough line of reasoning to use if you're trying to advance your argument.

[Margarite]

Eber, the land is exactly as pictured. And I like it that way. I walk my dogs in that area a couple of times a week and meet other dog walkers, hikers, tourists, and people who fish from the banks. There is a wonderful walking path that goes around the lake to the golf course. The only objection I have to the winery is that I'm afraid that it will bring car and truck traffic right up to this path. I, too, would like to see a site plan.

[Eber Brock Ward]

Yeah, Margarite, I'm reserving judgment until I see a site plan rather than ambiguous references from an article.

If it's not a unique area -- Sentiment aside, of course. I admit that I'd find it "unique" if my wife and I walked our dog there -- then it's tougher for me to oppose it.

[gnome]

Per usual, you take a point and then go so far off the edge as to make most people shake their heads in frustration. You don't just draw a line in the sand, you dig a moat, fill it with mercury and throw in radioactive alligators of guard it.

Your basic premise that Belle Isle has been and should always be free of commercial enterprises is false. You equate the vineyard to a WalMart parking lot and scream how morally right your are.

Others want to know more, be more involved but you shout them down.

Again, Dnerd, I've said this before to you, 'being a closed-minded liberal' is pretty hard to do, but you do it better than most. Closed. Ignorant. Prejudiced to the thoughts of others. A bigot.

[Detroitnerd]

There is ample, ample, ample grassland on Belle Isle. Do you disagree with this?

Building on that, would *anyone* that wants to "walk through, walk their dog through, lie down in and be hidden in and watch the sun and clouds" in grassland be denied the opportunity to do so were grapes to be planted in this particular stretch of grassland?

Seems like a tough line of reasoning to use if you're trying to advance your argument.

That land is there for the public to use. That's the purpose of the park. The promise of that island being for public use was the original selling point that convinced Detroiters to build Grand Boulevard in the 19th century.

For decades, Detroiters have pushed back plans introduced by the powerful to take over the people's park and give it to investors for private profit. There's a reason such battles are successful year after year. The people view the park, quite rightly, as their asset.

The idea that there's so much land on Belle Isle that taking any of it away for some private investor to make money off it would seem a very tough line of reasoning. But you're free to your opinion, of course. It's just that it conflicts with most Detroiters in recent memory, as well as Friends of Belle Isle and many other groups that work to preserve and defend the purpose of the park.

[Detroitnerd]

Per usual, you take a point and then go so far off the edge as to make most people shake their heads in frustration. You don't just draw a line in the sand, you dig a moat, fill it with mercury and throw in radioactive alligators of guard it.

Why should I allow any quarter to those who propose giving away -- for private profit -- any land that is for the enjoyment of Detroiters?

Your basic premise that Belle Isle has been and should always be free of commercial enterprises is false. You equate the vineyard to a WalMart parking lot and scream how morally right your are.

Perhaps you're so frustrated you need to put words in my mouth? My argument is that no private investor should make a back-room deal with odious, back-slapping Detroit politicians and outstate Republicans to take land away from the public for private profit. That's what it has been all along. I have said exactly what it is. And, though I'm vocal, I'm not the only one who feels that way. FOBI, similarly, opposed the plan. I suppose now you'll start putting words in their mouths too?

Others want to know more, be more involved but you shout them down.

If others want to know more, they are free to go to this self-serving business' website, or read the one-sided puffery that began this thread. I have not shouted down anybody asking for more information, no, I have only debated with those who speak in favor of it. Show me exactly where I have shouted down anybody who wants to learn more. Again, you straw-man.

Again, Dnerd, I've said this before to you, 'being a closed-minded liberal' is pretty hard to do, but you do it better than most. Closed. Ignorant. Prejudiced to the thoughts of others. A bigot.

That's rich. I have an opinion and I'm not afraid to defend it. I trust a person is only closed-minded when they disagree with you?

[gnome]

Sorry Dnerd, I happen to agree that a vineyard on Belle Isle is a bad idea; what I find troublesome is your inflammatory rhetoric calling the plan the manifestation of the unseen hand moving chess pieces.

You Mother-Watson styled pleas are risible in their caricatures of known reality thereby rending your cause impotent. The shrill tone, the heated rhetoric, provides nothing. It is vapid. Your pleas are inarticulate because they've been wrapped by blind rage.

You ask, "Why should I allow any quarter..." therein proving the above points. You should allow someone to present their points because it is the polite thing to do. You care not to be polite, by your own admission. You revel in not being polite then back off with the rope-a-dope passive-aggressive defense of 'prove it'. The only surprise is there is not a nah-nah-nah whined on top for effect.

You act as a clumsy lout, a boorish nag with just enough half-facts and historical references to render your words persuasive to the uninformed and weak-minded.

The non-funny funnyisms might be the most boorish bit of your personality. The poor use of language and the tired tropes that you rehash with marginal dexterity are your hallmarks of your discussion style.

No insight. Nothing new. No new way of looking at fixing the gapping war-wound that is Detroit. No, just more Mother Watson speak. More hidden-hand silliness. More boogeymen.

[Eber Brock Ward]

That land is there for the public to use. That's the purpose of the park. The promise of that island being for public use was the original selling point that convinced Detroiters to build Grand Boulevard in the 19th century.

For decades, Detroiters have pushed back plans introduced by the powerful to take over the people's park and give it to investors for private profit. There's a reason such battles are successful year after year. The people view the park, quite rightly, as their asset.

The idea that there's so much land on Belle Isle that taking any of it away for some private investor to make money off it would seem a very tough line of reasoning. But you're free to your opinion, of course. It's just that it conflicts with most Detroiters in recent memory, as well as Friends of Belle Isle and many other groups that work to preserve and defend the purpose of the park.

Your trying to move the goalposts. Originally, it was "grassland to walk through, etc. etc.", now it's "land" for "public use."

But if we assume, for argument's sake, that "that land is for public use" is now your argument, it seems that you're either arguing [[1) an absolutist "nothing non-public in public spaces" position, in which case, see ya DYC and Fountain Bistro and various other things, or [[2) some sort of position where you get to be the arbiter of what's "good enough" for public land.

If the former, whoa you're way out there but at least you're consistent! If the latter, your ego must know few bounds. And if something else, please let me know.

[Detroitnerd]

Your trying to move the goalposts. Originally, it was "grassland to walk through, etc. etc.", now it's "land" for "public use."

But if we assume, for argument's sake, that "that land is for public use" is now your argument, it seems that you're either arguing [[1) an absolutist "nothing non-public in public spaces" position, in which case, see ya DYC and Fountain Bistro and various other things, or [[2) some sort of position where you get to be the arbiter of what's "good enough" for public land.

If the former, whoa you're way out there but at least you're consistent! If the latter, your ego must know few bounds. And if something else, please let me know.

I never saw such complicated sophistry dancing around a perfectly good point.

It's perfectly good grass. Now try this: Go take a blanket and lie in it. It's safe. It envelops you. You look up at the clouds and the city seems far away. You find yourself imagining what the clouds look like. Bees buzz by. It's wonderful. Lie there quietly enough for long enough quietly and peer around and you'll see wildlife. With no vines to tempt them, they are not pests, just fellow residents of recreational land. Relax. Breathe deeply. You'll understand it after a while.

And if you don't get that, if you want to examine some cold calculus of why city residents can't do that elsewhere, when they've been able to as long as anybody in living memory can recall, who's out of bounds?

[Detroitnerd]

Sorry Dnerd, I happen to agree that a vineyard on Belle Isle is a bad idea; what I find troublesome is your inflammatory rhetoric calling the plan the manifestation of the unseen hand moving chess pieces.

You Mother-Watson styled pleas are risible in their caricatures of known reality thereby rending your cause impotent. The shrill tone, the heated rhetoric, provides nothing. It is vapid. Your pleas are inarticulate because they've been wrapped by blind rage.

You ask, "Why should I allow any quarter..." therein proving the above points. You should allow someone to present their points because it is the polite thing to do. You care not to be polite, by your own admission. You revel in not being polite then back off with the rope-a-dope passive-aggressive defense of 'prove it'. The only surprise is there is not a nah-nah-nah whined on top for effect.

You act as a clumsy lout, a boorish nag with just enough half-facts and historical references to render your words persuasive to the uninformed and weak-minded.

The non-funny funnyisms might be the most boorish bit of your personality. The poor use of language and the tired tropes that you rehash with marginal dexterity are your hallmarks of your discussion style.

No insight. Nothing new. No new way of looking at fixing the gapping war-wound that is Detroit. No, just more Mother Watson speak. More hidden-hand silliness. More boogeymen.

Oh, this is risible. Basically, you're chiding me for poor manners. Pffft. Who cares?

[DetroitCityCellars]

DetroitCityCellars, can you confirm or deny something for us?

In this picture --



-- the land behind Mr. Kownacki is just grassland. Is there a site plan or anything similar that sets forth where a potential winery would be, including the current use and status of the land?

Because if it's just overgrown grassland like that, I think DNerd's argument falls apart, because the land is not "precious recreational land" but rather land upon which no one is recreating, especially since it doesn't appear to be trampled down in the least.

However, if it's currently a picnic area or something else that is currently being used as "recreational land", I think he/she has a leg to stand on.

If, indeed, there's "nothing going on" where the grapes/winery would be, then one really has to stretch to make a non-tenuous argument against the project.

Thank you for the logical question Brock. Yes there is a site plan. If you are familiar with that end of the island, you will know of the loop that goes to the lighthouse. The plan is to plant the rows of vines within the loop and not disturb the trail in any way. There will be no trees cut down or removed for this vineyard. Rows of vine will be oriented in a North to South manner. I beg you to consider this an extension of the botanical gardens with a dirct link to Detroits Agrarian roots. There will still be plenty of tall grass left to lay down in. In fact, a small piece of Agricultural land, that is properly stewarded, will most likely increase biodiversity on that plot of land. Think of how many migratory birds are going to plump up on grapes as they pass through Belle Isle. Yes, I may use netting sometimea to keep the birds out, but they always manage to get a bit of the crop.

As for the Winery and Tasting Room, we have proposed to use the Casino building. I find it a shame that Detroiters and visitors to Detrot can not acces the Casino building unless attending a private event or some random open house. This is a world class Kahn designed building that should be open and celebrated 7 days a week. Our offer to lease the building adequately offsets any revenue loss to the city that it makes for the private rentals.

[corktownyuppie]

As for the Winery and Tasting Room, we have proposed to use the Casino building. I find it a shame that Detroiters and visitors to Detrot can not acces the Casino building unless attending a private event or some random open house. This is a world class Kahn designed building that should be open and celebrated 7 days a week. Our offer to lease the building adequately offsets any revenue loss to the city that it makes for the private rentals.

This would be a major win for Belle Isle. To have both the casino structure and the aquarium functioning again would have huge benefits for the island as well as those who frequent it.

I see this like the Fountain Bistro on Campus Martius or the ice cream shop and cafe on the Riverfront. I'll let your wine buyers foot the bill so that we don't have to charge admission to the area. Or perhaps I'll be one of the wine buyers, too.

Is there a timeline for approval?

[Gistok]

I do like the idea of a virtual continuous use of the Casino structure... which sadly many of us Belle Isle regular visitors have never even been to...

While I'm less thrilled with the use of part of the meadowlands... if there's enough room for both, I see no harm. After all that part of the island has NEVER been crowded [[if anything... way underutilized).

When the original 610 acres of Belle Isle [[the Fredrick Law Olmstead portion in the middle) was developed... the east end Blue Heron Lagoon area west end Scott Fountain/Lagoon and Grand Prix Pit Stop areas [[372 acres) were underwater during the Olmstead planning [[until they used river dredge material to fillin those areas)... so there's nothing really sacrosanct about making hornicultural changes to that eastern section.

Perhaps some computer graphics might show what a co-existence of the 2 [[vinehard/meadowlands) would look like, and change some minds. I don't see vineyards exactly as a mecca for more foot traffic in the area [[except perhaps during harvesting).... maybe a "Belle Isle Riparian Riesling" served at the Casino wouldn't be such a bad idea...

I'm actually less thrilled about the turning part of Milliken [[Tricentennial) State Park into swampland/wetland... "Greening" or not....

[DetroitCityCellars]

Sorry, but this has all the earmarks of a sweetheart deal with a developer-friendly councilperson, backed by outstate forces [[MEDC) to grab precious recreational land -- that should be dedicated to city residents -- to produce profits for a private investor. And that's something we've seen proposed WAY too many times in Detroit.

The astonishing thing is that you expect anybody living here and paying taxes in Detroit to support this sort of land grab. I strongly urge you to give up this ridiculous plan and wish you the best of luck with your vineyards where they belong: on private property.

How is it that you can express yourself so clearly, yet not understand what the word lease means?

Once again, private property will currently not be zoned for Agricutural purposes within the city of Detroit. You must know this?

The invitation stands to anyone reading this thread, come to the Irish Hills, visit our vineyard and winery, and see for yourself what I am talking about. We can grow wonderul grapes here in SE michigan, in particular Detroit. Its a job creator, it will promote tourism to Belle Isle and Detroit as a whole, it will be good for the entire Michigan Wine Industry, it will be a connection to our agrarian roots in Detroits past, it is embracing and celebrating a profession and a lifestyle that is older yet present in the founding of Detroit.

Fact: the very first vineyard ever planted in Michigan was in fort Ponchatrain by Cadillac and his men.

Fact: In 1679, the first ever written European account of The Detroit river and its islands was by Father Louis Hennepin who was travelling with LaSalle. He wrote
"The islands are the finest in the world. They are covered with forests of nut and fruit trees, and with wild vines loaded with grapes. From these, we made a large quantity of wine. The banks of the straits are vast meadows, and the prospect is terminated with some hills covered in vineyards".....

Fact: Prohibition destroyed the wine grape growing industry East of the Mississippi. We are bouncing back.

[GUSHI]

Charge a fee, open a vineyard, seriously put restaurants, the fee is only ten bucks, hell charge residents 7 bucks, everyone else 10 bucks, do some thing,



the problem w Detroit is the same problem it's always been, it's black and white,

The whites built it, left it, now the blacks think the whites wanna take it back,

2012 shit never changes,

[p69rrh51]

The climate has changed since the end of the 17th century! A vineyard especially on the eastern end is a bad idea. One that end is land fill from a couple of the freeways [[who knows what problems are hidden there) and two, Michigan wines just plain suck! With all the shitty Michigan wines already available now I do not need one more where I am forced lie to another host stupid enough to serve it that its ok!

[Margarite]

Thank you for the logical question Brock. Yes there is a site plan. If you are familiar with that end of the island, you will know of the loop that goes to the lighthouse. The plan is to plant the rows of vines within the loop and not disturb the trail in any way. There will be no trees cut down or removed for this vineyard. Rows of vine will be oriented in a North to South manner. I beg you to consider this an extension of the botanical gardens with a dirct link to Detroits Agrarian roots. There will still be plenty of tall grass left to lay down in. In fact, a small piece of Agricultural land, that is properly stewarded, will most likely increase biodiversity on that plot of land. Think of how many migratory birds are going to plump up on grapes as they pass through Belle Isle. Yes, I may use netting sometimea to keep the birds out, but they always manage to get a bit of the crop.

As for the Winery and Tasting Room, we have proposed to use the Casino building. I find it a shame that Detroiters and visitors to Detrot can not acces the Casino building unless attending a private event or some random open house. This is a world class Kahn designed building that should be open and celebrated 7 days a week. Our offer to lease the building adequately offsets any revenue loss to the city that it makes for the private rentals.

OK, this is a lot better than I had envisioned. You're slowly winning me over. My objections were purely selfish as I find this part of the Island an oasis in the city. It's quiet and peaceful and all I could think of was traffic and crowds and noise. If, in fact, the meadow would only be used for the grapevines I don't have a problem with that. Do you plan to erect any buildings near the vineyard? Is there a drawing available?

As I understand it all of the public activity would center around the Casino. Is this correct?