Could Heavy Rail Work On Detroit Freeways

[Danny]

I think as long as the elevate they train it should be okay.



[The title of this thread brought to mind this scene in the move Inception.]

We already evelated the rail loop. It's called the People Mover.

[Detroitnerd]

Understood. But maybe I should ask what exactly the type of heavy rail you are thinking about is?

The heavy rail system I'm most familiar with is the New York City subway system. Hence the idea of a long, long train of SPVs barreling down Gratiot ...

Thank you for a very clear explanation of what you mean. It sounds to me like Detroit's old streetcar system, but with an upgrade to 21st century infrastructure. Given the flatness of the streets and the gentle curves of the thoroughfares, I think you're right, you could use longer cars.

I find that I worry about the word "flexibility." That's usually something bus salesman talk about. A word that worries potential developers. Of course, it's a fixed-route system, so we're not talking about route flexibility, but perhaps vehicle upgrades? Variable speeds? I trust you mean it in the best sense of the word, that flexibility allows an authority to beef up service, not remove it?

For reasons mentioned before, I think freeway-oriented systems work against themselves. A connection to the airport would be a selling point -- if we didn't already have a segment of rail going from downtown to the airport ...

I'm not so worried about encroaching on existing roadway. For all roads but Michigan Avenue and Woodward below Six Mile, roadway capacity is insane, often enough to build an enclosed building where the center lane is.

Thanks again for explaining yourself so well. Sorry to have been such a grump yesterday.

[Hypestyles]

I'd love to see it.. but of course the woodward rail proposal went off the rails [[pun intended), so anything involving 'heavy' rail, even with highway-based arteries, is likely DOA in this current political climate with the zero-tax animosities, parochial control issues, SEMCOG's "assistance", etc. nothing is likely to change in the decade to come.. still no formal regional authority, still no "rapid transit buses", etc.

[ghettopalmetto]

Could you build a heavy rail line in a freeway median in Detroit? Sure. Is it a good idea? Probably not.

As mentioned above, heavy rail in the median has a tough time accommodating pedestrians. Usually, the area within a 10 minute walk [[1/2 mile) radius of the transit station is where most pedestrian-friendly development would occur. By placing the line along the freeway, the closest building would be 1/4 mile away. There goes half of your passengers....

Further, as in Fairfax County, Virginia...since the land uses are automobile-oriented, you need massive parking garages [[5000+ cars at each station) to acommodate the park-and-ride ridership. Multiply that by $20,000 to $25,000 per space just for construction, to say nothing of security and garage maintenance.

All that aside...when you rely on park-and-ride access, utilization of the line becomes monodirectional: inbound in the morning, outbound in the afternoon. In essence, you're running nearly-empty trains in the opposite-of-peak direction. That's just not a very wise use of operating resources.

[oladub]

Not sure of the dividing point between light and heavy rail, this article sort of presented the answer. http://metro-cincinnati.info/?p=1566

from the article: "It is important to note that these terms are merely broad categories, and there is generally no hard-and-fast rule that makes a firm distinction between light rail and heavy rail. There are a number of rail transit systems throughout the US and the world that adopt a hybrid approach, incorporating certain characteristics of each."

The American Public Transit Association defines light rail and heavy rail respectively as follows:

Light Rail is a mode of transit service [[also called streetcar, tramway, or trolley) operating passenger rail cars singly [[or in short, usually two-car or three-car, trains) on fixed rails in right-of-way that is often separated from other traffic for part or much of the way. Light rail vehicles are typically driven electrically with power being drawn from an overhead electric line via a trolley or a pantograph; driven by an operator on board the vehicle; and may have either high platform loading or low level boarding using steps.

Heavy Rail is a mode of transit service [[also called metro, subway, rapid transit, or rapid rail) operating on an electric railway with the capacity for a heavy volume of traffic. It is characterized by high speed and rapid acceleration passenger rail cars operating singly or in multi-car trains on fixed rails; separate rights-of-way from which all other vehicular and foot traffic are excluded; sophisticated signaling, and high platform loading.
Heavy Rail and Light Rail Compared

The following chart summarizes some key differences between the two modes:

	Heavy Rail	Light Rail
Passenger Capacity per Train / Vehicle	Up to 68 seated, 192 total per car. Up to 544 seated, 1536 per eight-car train. [[Washington Metro 7000-series rolling stock)	Up to 72 seated, 228 per vehicle. Up to 144 seated, 456 per two-unit consist. [[Siemens S70 rolling stock)
Average System Speed [[including dwell time at stations)	28 MPH [[Washington Metro)	19.6 MPH [[Portland MAX)
Top Speed Between Stations	75 MPH	66 MPH
Right-of-Way	Fully-dedicated right-of-way, separate from pedestrians and other vehicles. May be in the form of subway, elevated viaduct, surface alignment, or freeway median.	May operate on a fully-dedicated right-of-way, a surface alignment with grade crossings, or on city streets in shared traffic.
Power Supply	600V or 750V DC via third rail	600V 750V DC via overhead catenary
Platform Height	High-level platforms, 40″ to 48″ above the rails.	May use high-level or low-level platforms, or a combination thereof. Light rail systems with extensive street-running segments generally use low-level platforms, 18″ above the rails.
Fare Collection	Fare gates in stations. May use a flat fare [[New York City subway) or a zone-based fare system [[Washington Metro).	Proof-of-payment, with enforcement via random spot checks. Fares may be flat or zone-based.
Construction Cost per Mile	$50M – $250M	$15M – $100M

[[Sources: WMATA 7000-series rolling stock procurement documents, Siemens S70 data sheet, and the Transit Technologies Worksheet at reconnectingamerica.org)

from wikipedia:
"a freeway lane expansion typically costs $1.0 million to $8.5 million with an average of $2.3 million per lane mile [[a lane mile is a mile-long lane) for two directions."

"light rail vehicles can travel in multi-car trains carrying a theoretical ridership up to 20,000 passengers per hour in much narrower rights-of-way, not much more than two car lanes wide for a double track system.^[21] They can often be run through existing city streets and parks, or placed in the medians of roads. If run in streets, trains are usually limited by city block lengths to about four 180-passenger vehicles [[720 passengers). Operating on 2 minute headways using traffic signal progression, a well-designed two-track system can handle up to 30 trains per hour per track, achieving peak rates of over 20,000 passengers per hour in each direction. More advanced systems with separate rights-of-way using moving block signalling can exceed 25,000 passengers per hour per track"

A bus line using its own lanes can have a capacity of 7,000 per hour [[30 buses per direction, 120 passengers in articulated buses). Bus traffic is the traditional alternative to light rail, at least if very high capacity is not needed. Using buses, roads can get a high transit capacity. To have 30 buses per direction an hour, they must have priority in traffic lights and have their own lanes, as must trams to reach this density. Buses can go closer to each other than rail vehicles because of better braking capability. However, each bus vehicle requires a single driver, whereas a light rail train may have three to four cars of the same capacity in one train under the control of one driver, increasing labor costs of high- traffic BRT systems."

[ThisIsForTheHeart]

I just came back from Cleveland yesterday and I think what they have would work in Detroit. Bus only lanes and a rail line. The RTA was even talked about being a positive thing while I was 30 miles away from downtown.

[wolverine]

I just came back from Cleveland yesterday and I think what they have would work in Detroit. Bus only lanes and a rail line. The RTA was even talked about being a positive thing while I was 30 miles away from downtown.

^ That's great to hear, and Cleveland really does have a wonderful system. The only line I've ridden is from Square Square to downtown. It makes complete sense having the system with all the high density areas throughout Cleveland.

Entering Cleveland city limits near shaker square.


Rail tracks and station near the riverfront.

[Hypestyles]

cue the cleveland-bashing in 5, 4, 3, 2...

[Wheels]

cue the cleveland-bashing in 5, 4, 3, 2...

Mistake on the lake?

[p69rrh51]

A light rail might eventually be a good idea out to Pontiac along Woodward where population is heavier. Detroit Expressways though cut through residential neighborhoods which have become less populated. I do like the idea of using expressways for mass transit though. Articulated buses could be run in express lanes. it would be easier and cheaper to set up landings for them similar to Chicago El landings either along side or in the middle of the expressways like the El or at intersections at ground level. Articulated buses haul up to 120 people or 180 if in three sections. Standard buses could be used on the same routes for less busy times of the day.

Express lanes have already been tried and were a dismal failure.

[Wheels]

Express lanes have already been tried and were a dismal failure.

More info here.

http://detroittransithistory.info/Ar...yBusStops.html

[DetroitPlanner]

I just came back from Cleveland yesterday and I think what they have would work in Detroit. Bus only lanes and a rail line. The RTA was even talked about being a positive thing while I was 30 miles away from downtown.

Thanks, I've been saying this since December.
http://www.planning.org/aicp/symposi...gcleveland.pdf

[Hermod]

Everybody wants a streetcar!

Attachment 15356

[royce]

Fascinating to see those steps off of Woodward and I-94. I always wondered why there was an extra lane when getting off 94 at the Woodward/John R exit. I'm curious. If the bus picked up people on the freeway at Woodward, where did they get off heading east? Also, was there another drop off point beyond Livernois, heading west?

[iheartthed]

Everybody wants a streetcar!

Attachment 15356

So it actually ran curbside before too. Maybe Gilbert and Co. aren't as crazy as we thought...

[Hermod]

Just relax and play with your netbook or your iPad with our convenient wi-fi while you travel to your destination.

Attachment 15380


Attachment 15381

[dtowncitylover]

So it actually ran curbside before too. Maybe Gilbert and Co. aren't as crazy as we thought...

Actually it wasn't curbside. It was a dangerous trek from the curb to the middle of the street for the platform.

[wolverine]

I'm personally not the biggest fan of bus or rail stop islands. I felt the ones in SF are a bit too narrow. We saw one guy nearly get clipped by a driver's mirror.
https://maps.google.com/maps?q=San+F...272.33,,0,1.18

I also deal with this piece of hell daily
https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Chica...171.07,,0,3.86
Left, expressway entrance ramp. Right, local traffic.

[Brian1979]

A number of Chicago EL lines run down the middle of streets near their end-points. I forgot which ones, but they even stop at traffic lights at some points, kinda like trolleys.

Maybe the Brown Line on the North Side, the Blue Line [[Forest Park branch) in the Western suburbs? I think there's at least one more.

None of the CTA trains stop at traffic lights, when the lines are running at grade level they have gates on the sidewalks and cross streets that go down like a normal train crossing.

Most of the CTA lines run through alley's and over streets. The Brown Line runs elevated until it gets between the Western and Rockwell stations where it goes to at grade until it's terminus at Kimball, going the other way it's elevated all the way to the loop and back to between Western and Rockwell. The Blue Line runs in the median of the Eisenhower from UIC-Halsted to Central then runs south of the expressway, then it crosses the expressway at the Forest Park stop.

[Brian1979]

This is generally true, though there are exceptions.

As I wrote, the Chicago EL has some street-running portions at the end of certain lines [[I don't mean only grade-level, which isn't that rare, but these trains actually run directly down the middle of street, in traffic, and with lights, though only for a relatively short distance).

I know I just replyed to you in another post. I have been on every single line of the CTA from end to end and none of the lines run in the middle of the street with traffic, the cars they use wouldn't be able to do that since they need third rail to operate and there isn't a third rail anywhere in the middle of the street, it's dangerous enough on the at grade portions of the L.

[Brian1979]

The brown line at Kedzie is what you're thinking of I think.

The Brown Line at Kedzie is the station just before the terminus at Kimball, it's at grade and doesn't use the middle of a street.

[Brian1979]

Why? Who is going to walk out into the middle of the freeway to catch a bus or a train?

You don't walk out into the expressway to get to the station. Here in Chicago they use the overpasses with the station entrances being in the middle of the overpasses. There are only three instances of the L using expressway median's though [[red line in the middle of the Dan Ryan, blue line in the Eisenhower and Kennedy medians).

[Brian1979]

Yeah, I have taken the Blue line to/from O'Hare many times, so I know that parts of the Chicago system run in the freeway medians. Though, in the case of the Blue line, the intent was to connect the city's train system to the airport and the freeway was the easiest way to do it.

The Blue Line didn't go to O'Hare until about the mid 80's, that's when they extended the line, Jefferson Park had been the terminus since about 1970 until the Rosemont station was built then that became the terminus until the O'Hare station was built.

The Blue Line is the first line that used an expressway median though on the Forest Park Branch in the median of the Eisenhower.

[wolverine]

Correct. the freeways were always planned for CTA median ROW. Even if it never were to happen, those spaces would have been converted to express lanes. "Recent-past" plans called for the extension of the Blue Line beyond O'Hare to Schaumburg using the medians of the I-90 tollway...the same dilemma we are discussing in the Detroit situation. The price tag was enormous as the entire tollway would have to be reconstructed and would also require subway segments. The plan was scrapped for suburb to suburb rail [[Star Line) which will have a further reach and have the most value per mile.

As far as earlier CTA ground rail discussion, the Pink, Yellow, and Brown lines run at grade in portions [[Yellow line most of it) Though they cross intersections, they never stop for any other traffic. However, the duration of closed gate crossings for automobile traffic is very short...nearly the same as a traffic light and have low volume signals to not disturb residents nearby. The trains have excellent stopping power and head on train collisions with a car are incredibly rare.

Red Line [[Subway, freeway median, elevated structure or raised embankment)
Blue Line [[Subway, freeway median, elevated structure)
Orange Line [[Elevated Structure, raised embankment)
Green Line [[Elevated Structure)
Pink Line [[Elevated Structure, at grade)
Yellow Line [[Mostly at Grade)
Purple Line Non Express [[Raised embankment)
Brown Line [[Elevated Structure, at grade)

[Brian1979]

I think however Detroit could have a system very close to what the Chicago L is. Have trains run down Woodward, Grand River, Michigan, Fort, Gratiot and Jefferson and enter a loop created by Cass on the west, Congress on the south, Brush on the west and Adams on the north to turn the trains like Chicago's loop does. This would ultimately make the People Mover useless and get it demolished.