Could Heavy Rail Work On Detroit Freeways

[wolverine]

Correct. the freeways were always planned for CTA median ROW. Even if it never were to happen, those spaces would have been converted to express lanes. "Recent-past" plans called for the extension of the Blue Line beyond O'Hare to Schaumburg using the medians of the I-90 tollway...the same dilemma we are discussing in the Detroit situation. The price tag was enormous as the entire tollway would have to be reconstructed and would also require subway segments. The plan was scrapped for suburb to suburb rail [[Star Line) which will have a further reach and have the most value per mile.

As far as earlier CTA ground rail discussion, the Pink, Yellow, and Brown lines run at grade in portions [[Yellow line most of it) Though they cross intersections, they never stop for any other traffic. However, the duration of closed gate crossings for automobile traffic is very short...nearly the same as a traffic light and have low volume signals to not disturb residents nearby. The trains have excellent stopping power and head on train collisions with a car are incredibly rare.

Red Line [[Subway, freeway median, elevated structure or raised embankment)
Blue Line [[Subway, freeway median, elevated structure)
Orange Line [[Elevated Structure, raised embankment)
Green Line [[Elevated Structure)
Pink Line [[Elevated Structure, at grade)
Yellow Line [[Mostly at Grade)
Purple Line Non Express [[Raised embankment)
Brown Line [[Elevated Structure, at grade)

[Brian1979]

I think however Detroit could have a system very close to what the Chicago L is. Have trains run down Woodward, Grand River, Michigan, Fort, Gratiot and Jefferson and enter a loop created by Cass on the west, Congress on the south, Brush on the west and Adams on the north to turn the trains like Chicago's loop does. This would ultimately make the People Mover useless and get it demolished.

[wolverine]

I think however Detroit could have a system very close to what the Chicago L is. Have trains run down Woodward, Grand River, Michigan, Fort, Gratiot and Jefferson and enter a loop created by Cass on the west, Congress on the south, Brush on the west and Adams on the north to turn the trains like Chicago's loop does. This would ultimately make the People Mover useless and get it demolished.

It's possible to retrofit The existing people mover loop. I believe the existing configuration is perfectly functional for downtown but is unrealized potential without any branches. The compact nature of the people mover loop has implications for different lines arriving in a matter of seconds apart from each other during rush hour times. With the one way track complicated switching is reduced and efficiency is increased. All lines would arrive within close proximity to major downtown places of interest as the people mover currently does.

[Brian1979]

It's possible to retrofit The existing people mover loop. I believe the existing configuration is perfectly functional for downtown but is unrealized potential without any branches. The compact nature of the people mover loop has implications for different lines arriving in a matter of seconds apart from each other during rush hour times. With the one way track complicated switching is reduced and efficiency is increased. All lines would arrive within close proximity to major downtown places of interest as the people mover currently does.

Yeah that would probably work too. What I did to get the streets that I did was traced Chicago's loop and used what streets would work in Detroit. I think that a Detroit subway/El system could have six lines following Jefferson, Gratiot, Woodward, Grand River, Michigan and Fort and come into and exit the downtown loop at those streets. Kind of like the L at Lake and Wells or Van Buren and Wabash.

I think the People Mover could work though since there is only one track needed, there could be a spur at all the lines coming into the People Mover track. Cleveland opened it's RTA in 1975, I don't get what is taking Detroit so long and I think my system is a pretty good one.

[Al Publican]

Someone may have already commented on this on this thread, as I have not read all the posts, that metro Detroit's population density is wrong for mass transit. I am all for mass transit and appreciate what Portland, Oregon has done in that regard; I live across the Columbia River from Portland.

I was back in Detroit [[where I was born) last month. Each time I drove along Hall Road [[M-59) in Macomb County, I found myself thinking 'Wrong! All Wrong!...'

Metro Detroit is a Hall Roads up the ass affair with the likes of Telegraph, Northwestern Highway, and Gra-shit. The only way to make mass transit work in metro Detroit is to give away all that vacant land in Detroit and the nearby suburbs to urban homesteaders and small biz venture-types and re-start the scene. See you on the Woodward streetcar in 2050, if I make it to 100. *wink*

[michiganlady]

I recommend an elevated light rail or monorail system in Detroit. Subway would be extremely expensive and no one will want to ride a train on the freeway.

[coracle]

There are continuous discussions on heavy/light/above ground/below ground rail transportation and how it would "work" while the numbers of passengers that would use it is completely ignored [[or maybe grossly over estimated)? It seems to be a case of the "build it and they'll travel" approach to spending money that we don't have or money to subsidize the running of it. If it would "work" it would have been built by now. I think any mass transit, other than buses gets less and less viable as time passes and population declines. It's crazy to "invest" Billions in infrastructure on the off chance it might work and then wonder how to pay the bills.

[Brian1979]

The L in Chicago actually could be a single track if they had wanted to do it like that. The only line that uses one side of the tracks is the brown line which comes in at Lake and Wells goes down Wells to Van Buren to Wabash to Lake and back out of the loop to Kimball.

The pink and purple express trains come in at Lake and Wells as well but go in the opposite direction, they'll first go over Lake, then Wabash, then Van Buren, then Wells and back to their terminus.

The orange line comes into the loop at Van Buren and Wabash and follows Van Buren, Wells, Lake and Wabash before going back to Midway.

The green line uses two sides of the loop, coming from Harlem and Lake it enters where the pink line does and goes through the loop exiting at Van Buren and Wabash. Trains in the opposite direction enter at Van Buren and Wabash and exit at Lake and Wells. The red and blue lines are of course in their respective subways downtown.

[ghettopalmetto]

There are continuous discussions on heavy/light/above ground/below ground rail transportation and how it would "work" while the numbers of passengers that would use it is completely ignored [[or maybe grossly over estimated)? It seems to be a case of the "build it and they'll travel" approach to spending money that we don't have or money to subsidize the running of it. If it would "work" it would have been built by now. I think any mass transit, other than buses gets less and less viable as time passes and population declines. It's crazy to "invest" Billions in infrastructure on the off chance it might work and then wonder how to pay the bills.

There's that CAN'T-DO American spirit!!!

If people wanted to get places, they should have been born as a car. Fuck 'em.

[wolverine]

If it would "work" it would have been built by now. I

I'm sorry, but what has for Detroit?

The issue here is the suburbs win and Detroit loses. The model for the region is severely dispersed places of employment. Even job center powerhouses like Troy and Southfield continue to be diluted by heavily decentralized economic activity.

I could go forever how an ever expanding system of roads and freeways will have huge cost implications in the future, but I'll skip over that part of the argument.

The correct argument for transit is not about meeting needs of projected ridership demands of the existing population, or environment sustainability, or congestion relief.

Transit is more about investing infrastructure to meet future growth needs. A well designed system will already cross areas of major density, but also have the highest potential for growth. This is why the Woodward corridor has always been considered. It also begins to reshuffle the deck in terms of where growth happens. We can't say for certain how many new residents or businesses may be attracted to living and working near stations along the route, but I'd place all my bets that anyone wanting to move the city would live within close proximity of one of the stations.

Keep mind Detroit also has the opportunity to provide rail access to DTW that would provide direct access to downtown for business travelers and visitors. 5 Midwest cities already have this service:

Chicago
Cleveland
Milwaukee
Minneapolis
St. Louis

Maybe taking a ride on the Metrolink in Southern Illinois through corn fields, low density suburbs then on into a downtown subway will be enough to convince you that Detroit does have the population in places to support rail.

[DetroitPlanner]

Keep mind Detroit also has the opportunity to provide rail access to DTW that would provide direct access to downtown for business travelers and visitors. 5 Midwest cities already have this service:

Chicago
Cleveland
Milwaukee
Minneapolis
St. Louis

Maybe taking a ride on the Metrolink in Southern Illinois through corn fields, low density suburbs then on into a downtown subway will be enough to convince you that Detroit does have the population in places to support rail.

MKE has access to intercity service from Amtrak. This is very different that having the localized service that is in the others. It does however have twice the number of trains per day than the Wolverine, but not enough to be used for regular work trips.

[wolverine]

MKE has access to intercity service from Amtrak. This is very different that having the localized service that is in the others. It does however have twice the number of trains per day than the Wolverine, but not enough to be used for regular work trips.

I realize that but because the destination is an airport, you can at least pass time in the airport terminal. It's a cheap, available alternative to taking a taxi. If Detroit had something similar, I'd definitely try to coordinate my flights. Miss the train? No problem...as the tickets are valid up to 24 hours.

[Brian1979]

The Hiawatha line going between Milwaukee and Chicago runs more trains because it's a busier line than the Wolverine line. There are only three stops between downtown Milwaukee and downtown Chicago and trains take about 90 minutes to get between the two cities. They run 7 trains in each direction, 6 on Sunday's.

[DetroitPlanner]

I realize that but because the destination is an airport, you can at least pass time in the airport terminal. It's a cheap, available alternative to taking a taxi. If Detroit had something similar, I'd definitely try to coordinate my flights. Miss the train? No problem...as the tickets are valid up to 24 hours.

AA to DD is not entirely dead. I still have glimmers of hope for it. It too will be run by Amtrak but will use entirely different stock and stop in AA. The plan is to add up to 5 trips for a total of 8 [[including Wolverine trips). While still not great, it would be better than what we now have [[nothing).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6yzvCSvM71E

[Hermod]

Transit is more about investing infrastructure to meet future growth needs. A well designed system will already cross areas of major density, but also have the highest potential for growth. This is why the Woodward corridor has always been considered. It also begins to reshuffle the deck in terms of where growth happens. We can't say for certain how many new residents or businesses may be attracted to living and working near stations along the route, but I'd place all my bets that anyone wanting to move the city would live within close proximity of one of the stations.

If you are going for rail transit for the Detroit metro area, a Woodward line makes sense as the "first step".

Here is a radical idea. Begin construction in Pontiac and build south toward downtown Detroit. This will provide a spur for continued construction whre beginning from the south might very well stall out at Grand Boulevard.

[stromberg2]

^^
Very well put, Wolverine! You always have insightful posts.

Stromberg2