Joe Louis Arena Deadline next Tuesday.

[BShea]

Nope, that's one arena. What does a baseball field and football stadium have to do with this?

Um, Progressive Field and Quicken Loans Arena are next to each other, they both have suites and major league teams as tenants and they have nights in which both teams are playing ... the same for Cleveland Browns Stadium ... and they're all in a city smaller than Detroit.

None of Detroit's four major pro sports teams are in financial trouble, and none of their venues are in trouble. Detroit is able to support all four. With a new arena, the Wings will be able to draw further revenue streams to make them more competitive. That's a logical business move, and it will be financed just as the other two stadiums were in town - private and public money. That's just how it's done.

Yes, and you are proposing doubling the supply of suites at the same time that these families and individuals have lost much of their net worth.. Oh, and BTW, if you really want a suite, there are a few available at the Palace right now.

Net worth is not the same as cash in hand. The teams know that. And even if the Palace doesn't sell every suite doesn't mean it's not a success.

And keep in mind the excitement of a new venue traditionally sparks interest from fans and companies that previously didn't lease them.

Correct. This is why they need to share an arena with the Pistons. Absent that, they need to renovate JLA to squeeze the maximum revenue out of the Joe.

Do you think the Pistons are going to give them as good a deal as they got from Coleman Young?!? Hardly. Neither team is going to move in there, and the NHL likely would try to stop the move. It would be a scheduling nightmare. And you cannot renovate the Joe much further, and if you sink $150m into it, you're not going to get that back any time soon. Atop that, JLA's location is a crime -- you don't need windowless concrete boxes sitting on valuable riverfront land. That spot can be used for Cobo or revenue development for the city. Ask an urban planner.

No pro sports franchise wants to share a venue. Ask the Cleveland Indians what the Browns did to them for 35 years with their lease.

LOL, yeah, it sure would hurt to have two teams share one arena, even though every other city does it, and even though there aren't nearly enough events for two separate arenas.

A new JLA would likely take away events from Cobo. It will be built as a multi-purpose venue.

No one but you wants to see the Wings move to the Palace, and that includes the Wings, Pistons, city of Detroit, Wayne County and the fans of both teams.

It's never going to happen, so wishing for it and arguing for it is pointless. Atop that, it's simply a stupid idea because one or both of the teams would LOSE revenue.

[BShea]

Do you even know how NFL stadia are financed? Most of the money actually comes from NFL revenue sharing. The owner puts up less than the league. In contrast the other leagues put up nothing.

Well, I write about it for a living, and covered the bidding, financing and construction of several stadiums, including Columbus Crew Stadium, Cleveland Browns Stadium, Nationwide Arena, etc.

Cleveland Browns Stadium [[$315 million, 1999): Team owner Al Lerner spent $25 million from PSL sales and borrowed $50 million from the NFL at favorable terms. Several million came from naming rights to stadium gates. The remainder was public financing. No revenue sharing money was involved.

Gund Arena/Quicken Loans Arena [[$152 million, 1994): Tax-exempt municipal bonds issued by Cuyahoga County and an extension of the "sin tax" on liquor and cigarettes [[and naming rights). Owned by the Gateway Economic Development Corp.

Progressive Field [[$175 million, 1994): $84 million from the sin tax and $91 million from owner Dick Jacobs.

[ghettopalmetto]

Do the Wings need a modern arena? I'd say so. Here's what I want to know: Who pays for it?

Ilitch will most certainly look for a handout. The City doesn't have money for basic services, and somehow spends the rest it doesn't have demolishing buildings unnecessarily. The bond rating is for shit, so where is any sort of public financing going to come from? And why should a billionaire be expected to not pay for his own arena? Bill Davidson built his own arena, Abe Pollin did it in DC [[and somehow manages to not screw over the Capitals). Why can't Ilitch do it? The guy has more money than the City of Detroit does, that's for sure. If he gets public money, is he going to share the profits with the City???

[Lowell]

To the original question -- north of 375. It fits with everthing, especially the Ilitch empire, and my little birdies say the acquisitions are in place. Also it is a glamorous location with high visibility. The light rail will make it even more attractive and link it to parking further north. We'll see.

On the evolved thread topic, one has to remember that Detroit has the one of largest, if not the largest, pro sports market in North America. The nearest infringments Cleveland, Chicago and Toronto are far away and all the large markets like Chicago, NY or LA are divvied up by second and third teams. Add to that the great multi-generaltional histories and loyalities. One has to be a business idiot to lose money here. Even our miserable Lions rake it in.

[ghein]

Crawford, your logic is infuriating.

You argue that Illitch can't build a new stadium with frills and suites because the region can't support two separate luxury arenas. Your solution is for Illitch to renovate the Joe... and do what to it? Fix up a building he doesn't own out of the kindness of his heart and add in the suites that you say he can't sell anyways? What is the financial incentive in that?

Maybe you're saying he should keep the Joe as it is. Seems logical, except Illitch seems hell bent on either renovating the building or construcing a new one. Since he's a better businessman than anybody on this board, I'll follow his lead and assume that the status quo at the Joe is not a viable option.

Perhaps he sees long-term value in owning his own arena instead of leasing one from the city, no matter how cheap the current deal is.

[Gistok]

Agreed ghein! But perhaps Ilitch will want a new arena to be publicly owned in some fashion. He won't want to pay property taxes on a $300 million structure.

Isn't that how Ford Field and Comerica Park are handled [[IIRC)? Privately financed [[mostly) but somehow publicly owned? Or am I wrong here?

I know that has to be a contributing factor in why Ilitch doesn't want to own Masonic Temple outright.... he now gets all the benefits of its' use, without paying the taxes on such an enormous structure.

[BShea]

Both Comerica Park and Ford Field are owned by the Detroit-Wayne County Stadium Authority, a quasi-public board of city and county appointees, and are leased to the county and then subleased to the teams.

http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article...UB01/303229965

Comerica Park was built with $115 million from a rental-car tax/hotel tax, some money from Indians casinos, and $185 million from Ilitch.

Ford Field was $300 million from the Lions, DDA, Wayne County, Ford Motor Co. and others.

[Hypestyles]

we'll see... I just hope there are no city council hijinks involved.. I can see the glaring irony of monica conyers, martha reeves, complaining about moving a redwings stadium to a suburban site..

[crawford]

Well, I write about it for a living, and covered the bidding, financing and construction of several stadiums, including Columbus Crew Stadium, Cleveland Browns Stadium, Nationwide Arena, etc.

Heck, I just read the newspapers, and yet I know your facts are wrong.

Only one of the stadia you mention is in the NFL, and it was over a decade ago. What does this have to do with anything? What does a soccer stadium or an older football stadium have to do with NFL stadium financing in 2009?

Currently 100% of NFL teams automatically receive MINIMUM $150 million in super-favorable loans from the NFL through revenue sharing for all new construction stadia. One stadium received as much as $300 million, in 2007.

The NFL is [[by far) the richest league. The NHL is comparatively poverty-stricken, and does not loan anything.

Not sure what this has to do with JLA, but thought you should know...

[kraig]

You're right Crawford. There's no way that the Illitches will be able to convince the City of Detroit, Wayne County, the DEGC and the NHL to assist them in building a new hockey arena. In order to do that they would need money, a good relationship with the politicians, good standing in the business community and probably a good working relationship with the DEGC. Clearly, the Illitches have none of those things.

Even if they did, who's going to go to a Wing's game? They have little to no fan support. The people in the Metropolitan area and the rest of Michigan aren't fans of hockey. Why, there's not even a market for hockey in Michigan. In fact, I don't know why the NCAA is going to have the Hockey Final Four in Downtown Detroit. Let's face it, no one is going to support hockey in Detroit. Never have, never will. You, my friend, are an absolute genius.

[Gistok]

Thanks for the specifics BShea! I knew it was something like that, just couldn't remember the specifics.

Also, if Detroit has such a disadvantage over Auburn Hills, as well as other cities, here's one contradictory statistic that comes to mind....

Annually the Detroit Fox Theatre is consistently the highest attended theatre.... drum roll.... in all of North America. Granted it has a huge amount of seats, maximum seating is 5,174 seats [[maximum seating includes removable seats in the raised orchestra pit).

But the Fox even outperforms the nearly 6,000 seat Radio City Music Hall... and that's in the heart of New York City!!

[professorscott]

I know absolutely nothing relevant to any of this, but since this is the Internet, why should that stop me from posting

1. My little birdies have been talking to Mr. Boileau's little birdies, apparently, because mine are telling me the same thing that his are telling him.

2. I've read several dozen articles by Bill Shea over the past couple years, and a few of them were about things of which I had direct, personal first-hand knowledge, and I have not yet caught him in an incorrect factual statement. Of course, he often quotes other people [[who might themselves be lying or prevaricating), but every reporter does that, and has to. But what he states as fact, is fact.

[BShea]

Joe Louis master lease announcement could come at 10 a.m. Friday.

Or maybe not.

http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article...FREE/906259973

[gthomas]

If they decide to build behind the fox that would be great! It should concider using EXTREME architecture that would WOW people from around the world. Mixture of modern and historic design that can be seen from the freeway and have a sports theme aspects surrounding the stadium. Oh, and extreme landscaping ....eliminate all those surface parking lots. They should also invest in turning the comerica park parking lot on woodward into an sport theme entertainment district with shops, retail, restaurants and maybe a big name hotel? That would be nice..and watch how you will see increase foot traffic and a more dense feel in that area.

[crawford]

But what he states as fact, is fact.

Bill Shea claims that NFL teams do not get a minimum of $150 million from the NFL per new stadium. This is false.

Let's look at the most recent examples:

Meadowlands Stadium- $300 million from NFL
Eagles Stadium- $150 million from NFL
Gillette Stadium- $150 million from NFL

Ford Field- $100 million from NFL [[back when revenue sharing terms were different)

The NFL has paid out something like $1.5 billion to teams in grants and low-interest loans since around 2000.

[gnome]

Be kind to Bill, as he says, he just passes on press releases so don't be too hard on the guy. He's just doing his job.

BTW, can we get back to wild speculation on where Iitch is going to build he Super-Suite Arena?

My guess is ... repurposing United Artists building building on the Tuller site and closing off Adams, tearing down the Charlevoix Bldg, the other building on the corner of Park/Adams and the Leland Hotel/Apts.

That would make them close to their Olympia offices at Adams and Cass, keep their parking lots generating $$ and allow them federal persevation money for keeping the UA.

[BShea]

Bill Shea claims that NFL teams do not get a minimum of $150 million from the NFL per new stadium. This is false.

Where did I claim that? Copy-paste the sentence I wrote that says that.

If you have to resort to Iran-style distortion in a feeble attempt to bolster your crumbling position, then you're in a bit of trouble, ya know?

Different leagues and teams financing stadiums different ways. No one has denied the NFL is a cash cow, and that the NHL isn't nearly as lucrative [[although that hasn't stopped the league from loaning the Coyotes money to operate, despite your demonstrably false assertion the league doesn't loan money). My point was I am familiar with stadium financing and such.

Public dollars as corporate welfare for billionaires is separate discussion. I'm dealing in the realities of the situation, which are that the Ilitches want a new stadium and they're very likely to follow the model they successfully used in Detroit for Comerica Park. If the public, through its elected representatives, is willing to foot some of the bill, then tax dollar financing will happen. I also won't be surprised to see the Ilitches get an extention on their lease deadlines so enough time will pass that so that banks are more willing to lend at better rates and companies are willing to spend on naming rights and that the political situation locally is better for them to seek public financing.

I would also guess most team owners, even the billionaires, don't have $400 million in cash sitting in their checking account that they can simply write a check for a stadium. No one with any sense is going to leverage their personal fortune like that, not with the present patterns of stadium financing. Moral case aside, why should they? It's human nature to take advantage of the system that's out there.

All the criticisms of Mike Ilitch aside, he didn't spend his own money to ensure Comerica Park is a really neat stadium. I love my Indians and Jacobs Field, but Comerica is a much nicer ballpark. IMHO, it's got that not-too-serious campy feel [[but not silly), and it honors the team history in cool ways. He paid a lot of money and Detroit got a nice ballpark.

One can also make a compelling case that public money would be better served on schools, roads, etc. I'm not here to make that case either way. I'm simply talking about what's going to happen, not what should happen based on a particular ideology and worldview. I do plan to write a story about that, which I'm sure every out media outlet in town will do, as well.