Joe Louis Arena Deadline next Tuesday.

[MotownSpartan]

This is totally irrelevent.

I'm talking about corporate base and community wealth, not fan loyalty.

Selling suites has little to do with fan loyalty. It's a corporate perk. It doesn't really matter if it's a good sports town or not, especially considering that arenas don't just serve a sports audience.

But you try and compare us to Newark or Phoenix which is a poor comparison. Because we are such a huge sports town corporations and other entities likely prioritize having a luxury box to a much higher extent than corporations in other areas [[because sporting events are so popular in Detroit they are very attractive places to take clients, etc.)

[GREENTROIT]

Crawford you are missing the point. Detroit will have no choice but to support two suite laden arenas.

Bill Davidson built the Palace of Auburn Hills. The Davidson family owns the building. The Pistons will not leave Auburn Hills for a long time. Mike Ilitch oozes money. He owns a million parcels of land in Detroit, and is worth a ton of money. He and his family are also committed to Detroit. There is no way the Wings would play in Auburn Hills.

That said, Joe Louis Arena is really outdated. I have no problem with it personally, and it gushes with history, but I can understand why an owner would want to upgrade. The entrances are above giant staircases. The suites are in the ceiling. The benches are tiny. The locker rooms are terrible. And they forgot to build a press box when they built it, and had to build a makeshift one at the top row [[this is a true story). If Ilitch builds a new stadium, he will have more concession stands, more merchandise, more suites, more seats, more money. So it makes sense, and it will happen in the near future.

If the Palace can sell their seats and suites, and Joe Louis can sell its seats and suites, why wouldn't a new hockey arena be able to sell suites? I don't see why not?

[kraig]

Don't worry about it Greentroit, the rest of us get what you're saying and it makes sense. Some people aren't going to let facts and good sense get in the way of a good argument.

[raptor56]

Back on subject, expect an agreement to extend the current lease agreement status quo for the next 5 years [[not the 20 year option), with a new arena announcement in 2011 as the economy supposedly picks back up. If they were going to announce a new area, Olympia Ent would be building up a lot more buzz around town. You don't just casually come out and say you're building a new arena. They always try and build up a bunch of excitement first.

[Genesyxx]

what if the rushed demo of tiger stadium was tso that Illitch could build the new stadium there?

[raptor56]

If the Red Wings extend the contract, a decision that is the team's alone, the city could no longer tack on up to a 10 percent surcharge on tickets to games and events that accounted for $3 million in revenue last year.
Also Detroit would no longer get a cut of concessions and suite rentals. Olympia Entertainment would lose up to $1 million in annual tax breaks. The amount of tax liability is written into the lease deal.

http://detnews.com/article/20090624/...-consider-move

So if they kept the lease, Illitch could keep the $3mil city surcharges for himself, pay the additional $1mil in lost tax breaks, and still come out $2mil ahead. This is a sweetheart deal!!

[ghettopalmetto]

New Jersey: NBA Izod Center. NHL Prudential Center
Charlotte, NC: NBA Time Warner Cable Arena. NHL RBC Center
Miami, FL: NBA American Airlines Arena NHL Bank Atlantic Center
Minnesota: NBA Target Center NHL Xcel Energy Center

RBC Center is in RALEIGH.

And if you want to get technical, Bank Atlantic Center is in suburb of Fort Lauderdale.

But hey, it's only a massive recession, and Detroit is only the hardest hit place. Let's spend money tearing shit down and then lining Mike Ilitch's pockets.

[detmsp]

Yes, but they are only huge money makers if you have a market to support them.

Excepting maybe New York, I can think of no other city on the planet with two successful suite-laden arenas. Not London, not LA, not Tokyo.

Please tell me why Detroit somehow has a deeper pool of wealth and corporate power than places like London and Tokyo.

Heck, look at Chicago. Chicago has only one arena for two teams. You think metro Detroit, which is half the size of metro Chicago, has twice the market for suites? So, on a per-capita basis, we have four times the wealth? For real?

your arguments don't even make sense. the red wings are doing just fine in joe louis. how does adding a new source of revenue suddenly make a red wings only arena unprofitable?

And if having two arenas with suites means that the city has four times the wealth of Chicago.... well holy crap, everyone pack your bags and move to the wonderful wealthy world of Minnesota, where the streets are paved in gold, the squirels poop silver dollars and the NHL team and NBA teams play in different arenas.... with suites! That's right, the Wild play at the Xcel Center and the T-Wolves play at the Target Center. Wealthiest city in the world!

sure it would probably be cheaper overall to have the pistons and red wings play at the same facility, but that doesn't automatically make it unfeasible to have them play at separate arenas.

[crawford]

ummmmm... We already do. 19,000 people routinely fill the Joe on the same evening 21,000 people fill the Palace.

Non-sequitur. You are telling me we can sell out two sports, not two arenas. This has nothing to do with whether they play in one arena or two.

Adding a couple more suites and frills to a new Joe will not suddenly change this dynamic.

It would radically change the dynamic, because a new Joe only makes sense with hundreds of suites. Absent all those suites there is no reason for a new Joe.

If not for the suites, why would we build a new Joe? You think Illitch cares if the bathrooms are nicer or the parking is easier? If so, you can just renovate the existing Joe.

It worked jsut find for the Lions and Tigers. Should we combind our Baseball and Footabll stadiums too? Obviously Metro Detroit can't handle two large stadiums with suites and frills.

Irrelevent. I am talking about arenas, not baseball and football stadia. The economics are entirely different.

New Jersey: NBA Izod Center. NHL Prudential Center

Izod is being demolished. Prudential is failing.

And you are comparing Detroit to NY/NJ?

Charlotte, NC: NBA Time Warner Cable Arena. NHL RBC Center

The Carolina Hurricanes don't play in Charlotte! They play in Raleigh, which is significantly further from Charlotte than [[for example) Cleveland is from Detroit.

Miami, FL: NBA American Airlines Arena NHL Bank Atlantic Center

Both arenas are huge failures and losing money. You want two failed arenas?

Minnesota: NBA Target Center NHL Xcel Energy Center

Again, both arenas are failures and losing money. Another cautionary tale. Timberwolves will likely move to St. Paul, and Target Center will be demolished.

And last I checked, if you have one stadium with all the frills and suites supporting a hockey and a basketball team, you still need to find the same number of suite and ticekt buyers as if you had two stadiums.

Buying a suite for the Knicks doesn't buy you a suite for the Rangers

Nope. The suite gives you full rights for all events. You buy the suite, not the event.

Two arenas with suites means you need to sell twice the number of suites.

[crawford]

But you try and compare us to Newark or Phoenix which is a poor comparison.

Right, because Newark is part of a big, rich and growing area, while Detroit is part of a smaller, poorer and shrinking area. The Newark Arena is 7 miles from Midtown Manhattan and directly connected to busy 24-hour subway and commuter rail lines.

And the Newark Arena hasn't even done well! Not even after 200 million of public funds! If Illitch uses that as a basis of comparison, he will never leave the Joe.

And Phoenix is probably losing the Coyotes, largely because of the new arena!

Because we are such a huge sports town corporations and other entities likely prioritize having a luxury box to a much higher extent than corporations in other areas [[because sporting events are so popular in Detroit they are very attractive places to take clients, etc.)

If you think places like Boston, Chicago, Philly etc. are terrible sports towns, then be my guest. Somehow they can't support two arenas. Why don't you go to Boston and tell them that they don't care about their sports.

And if you think that Detroit corporations have twice as much money as Chicago corporations to spend on corporate suites, especially in this economy, then be my guest.

[tkelly1986]

My hope is behind the Fox, but only if it does not result in the demolition of entire blocks of buildings [[ie. Lodent ect...). If they build there with minimal tear downs and build up the rest of the area with parking garages, it could bring some density to the area.

[BShea]

Please name me a city that has two successful arenas with frills and suites.

Well, Cleveland just down the road as Progressive Field next to Rock Financial arena, which is a few blocks from Cleveland Browns Stadium.

All three venues are in the black, as are the teams.

Detroit has Joe Louis Arena, Comerica Park and Ford Field. That doesn't account for Cobo Center and its arena.

Selling suites has little to do with fan loyalty. It's a corporate perk. It doesn't really matter if it's a good sports town or not, especially considering that arenas don't just serve a sports audience.

There are numerous suites at all the local venues leased by families and individuals, not corporations.

My point is that there is no economic reason for the Wings to build a new arena.

Other than making money. The Wings don't get into the black until the playoffs because they don't have the revenue streams from their facility -- even with the salary cap and the team-friendly lease.

The reasoning for new arenas is to build wealth through suites and frills, but we already have such an arena in metro Detroit.

The Palace is privately owned and wants nothing to do with the Wings. And the Ilitches wouldn't have to split revenue with Karen Davidson. It would dilute revenue for both teams and cripple their ability to compete financially in their leagues.

The market cannot support two such arenas. There is no way the Wings could sell 200 suites at 400,000 each, or whatever they would need.

I don't think they'd have that many suites. I don't think Ford Field does. Suites will vary in size and price.

Here's a link to what I've been writing on the subject lately:

http://www.crainsdetroit.com/section...insdetroit.com

[crawford]

Crawford you are missing the point. Detroit will have no choice but to support two suite laden arenas.

Which, if it happens, really has no precedent anywhere, outside maybe in New York.

Quite a stretch to assume that companies in Detroit cannot be compared to companies anywhere else on earth, and that corporate spending power in Detroit is greater than that of San Francisco, LA, Boston, Washington, DC, Chicago, Toronto, London, etc.

Bill Davidson built the Palace of Auburn Hills. The Davidson family owns the building. The Pistons will not leave Auburn Hills for a long time.

Right, because the Palace is one of the most lucrative arenas on earth? Why? SUITES

Mike Ilitch oozes money. He owns a million parcels of land in Detroit, and is worth a ton of money.

He's nothing special for a sports owner. He can't pay for a new arena 100% out of his own pocket.

He and his family are also committed to Detroit. There is no way the Wings would play in Auburn Hills.

As long as Illitch owns the Wings, I would agree; they won't leave Detroit.

I think Ilitch's commitment to the city is open to discussion, though, considering he's the biggest slumlord downtown, and hasn't done a thing but demolish buildings for 15 years now.

That said, Joe Louis Arena is really outdated. I have no problem with it personally, and it gushes with history, but I can understand why an owner would want to upgrade. The entrances are above giant staircases. The suites are in the ceiling. The benches are tiny. The locker rooms are terrible. And they forgot to build a press box when they built it, and had to build a makeshift one at the top row [[this is a true story).

Definitely. The Joe needs a big upgrade. And I think it will get one.

If Ilitch builds a new stadium, he will have more concession stands, more merchandise, more suites, more seats, more money. So it makes sense, and it will happen in the near future.

This is exactly why it won't happen. These newer arenas only make sense because of suites. The concessions, merchandise, etc. revenue is chickenfeed and can be accomodated in the existing JLA [[following renovations). The only reason that new arenas are built nowadays is for suites. If you can't sell hundreds of suites for top-dollar, there's no point to a new arena.

If the Palace can sell their seats and suites, and Joe Louis can sell its seats and suites, why wouldn't a new hockey arena be able to sell suites? I don't see why not?

But that's the thing; the Joe barely has any suites, and they're dirt-cheap. You would need at least 150-200 lavish suites in a new Joe to make the economics work. Otherwise you just renovate.

[raptor56]

RBC Center is in RALEIGH.

And if you want to get technical, Bank Atlantic Center is in suburb of Fort Lauderdale.
.

...which is a 30 minute drive from Miami. No different than the drive from Detroit to Auburn Hills. Same relative market.

[spartacus]

I can't believe that after wasting my time reading this thread that I'm actually contributing to it...

Crawford, are you saying that I can get a suite in Chicago at the United Cener for the Blackhawks and Bulls and it only costs as much as a suite at say, the Palace? I find this very hard to believe. But this must be true if you're saying that Detroit corporations will spend twice as much on suites as Chicago corporations.

Also, please find an arena in the country more successful then the Palace. You won't find many. Just like the Fox and DTE, it is a phenomenally successful venue.

[SCS100]

And Phoenix is probably losing the Coyotes, largely because of the new arena!

So according to your position, the fact that practically no one cares about hockey in Phoenix has nothing to do with them leaving the city, right?

It takes more than just suites to determine how successful an arena will be. You also need someone who is willing to show up and watch. Suites are not the determining factor for an arena, they just play a somewhat larger role than they should.

[detmsp]

Again, both arenas are failures and losing money. Another cautionary tale. Timberwolves will likely move to St. Paul, and Target Center will be demolished.

The Xcel center is not a failure. Every F-ing game is a sell out! The target center probably doesn't do so well because the T-Wolves suck, have no history and no fan base.

[detmsp]

But that's the thing; the Joe barely has any suites, and they're dirt-cheap. You would need at least 150-200 lavish suites in a new Joe to make the economics work. Otherwise you just renovate.

renovate? would that include adding suites? YOU'RE INSANE! are you really trying to tell me that Detroit has 4x the wealth of chicago? no one will by them because tokyo has one arena!

[crawford]

Well, Cleveland just down the road as Progressive Field next to Rock Financial arena, which is a few blocks from Cleveland Browns Stadium.

Nope, that's one arena. What does a baseball field and football stadium have to do with this?

Detroit has Joe Louis Arena, Comerica Park and Ford Field. That doesn't account for Cobo Center and its arena.

Cobo? What about Pee Wee Field in Melvindale, while you're at it?

There are numerous suites at all the local venues leased by families and individuals, not corporations.

Yes, and you are proposing doubling the supply of suites at the same time that these families and individuals have lost much of their net worth.. Oh, and BTW, if you really want a suite, there are a few available at the Palace right now.

The Wings don't get into the black until the playoffs because they don't have the revenue streams from their facility -- even with the salary cap and the team-friendly lease.

Correct. This is why they need to share an arena with the Pistons. Absent that, they need to renovate JLA to squeeze the maximum revenue out of the Joe.

The Palace is privately owned and wants nothing to do with the Wings. And the Ilitches wouldn't have to split revenue with Karen Davidson. It would dilute revenue for both teams and cripple their ability to compete financially in their leagues.

LOL, yeah, it sure would hurt to have two teams share one arena, even though every other city does it, and even though there aren't nearly enough events for two separate arenas.

Gee, my girlfriend and I should move to separate one bedroom apartments instead of sharing one. We'll definitely save a lot of money that way!

I don't think they'd have that many suites. I don't think Ford Field does. Suites will vary in size and price.

Ford Field isn't an arena. It has nothing to do with the NHL or NBA.

Do you even know how NFL stadia are financed? Most of the money actually comes from NFL revenue sharing. The owner puts up less than the league. In contrast the other leagues put up nothing.

[Detroitej72]

Correct. This is why they need to share an arena with the Pistons. Absent that, they need to renovate JLA to squeeze the maximum revenue out of the Joe.

Ford Field isn't an arena. It has nothing to do with the NHL or NBA.

Do you even know how NFL stadia are financed? Most of the money actually comes from NFL revenue sharing. The owner puts up less than the league. In contrast the other leagues put up nothing.

A few problems with your logic.

First, why would Karen Davidson want to share her money from suites with Illitch when currently she can keep it all?

Second, I don't recall the NFL putting up any money for Ford Field. I recall it was financed by Wayne County, Detroit, and the Lions, not the league. If I'm wrong on that, please show me some proof to the contrary.

Third, Illitch has expressed in the past that he prefers to have a new arena built, and if that is his desire, I'm sure he wont take your feelings about the matter into consideration. But, I'm sure you can write him a letter explaining why you want him to move to the Palace, just don't expect to get your wish.

[schulzte]

1. Any new downtown arena will not have 200 suites like the Palace. In the entire nation only the United Center in Chicago has more suites than the Palace for a sports arena. The Joe has enough suites [[83 at one time, this has been reduced to 68), but they are not in a good location underneath the roof, so they are not as valuable as they could be. Most recently built arena have between 70 and 120 suites.

2. The Joe doesn't lack suites, it does lack club seating, concourse room, concessions, bathrooms, foot access to downtown, and restaurants that most arenas now have.

3. The Palace and the Joe have coexisted for quite some time. In many cities, two larges arenas have been a struggle, particularly Minneapolis-St. Paul and Phoenix. However, San Jose and Oakland arenas have done well. The thing one needs to look at is not how many large pro sports arenas a town has, but how many total show venues there are. Concerts and shows are just as big of a money maker for an arena as sports. If Cobo Arena ever goes away [[which it likely will), I think a new downtown arena becomes more viable, because there will only be one downtown venue, and only two 10,000+ seat arenas in Metro Detroit. Crisler Arena doesn't do many concerts as far as I know, and the Convo Center in Ypsi is about the only other option, and a small out of the way one at that. Just because a city has one pro sports arena doesn't mean it doesn't have other venues. Chicago has the United Center, the Rosemont Horizon, the UIC Pavilion and the Sears Center, all 10,000+ seat indoor arenas. Cleveland has the Cavaliers Arena [[20,000 + seats) and the Wolstein Center [[13,000 + seats). Milwaukee has two 10,000 + seat arenas, while Cincinnati has four!

4. A new downtown arena may be able to attract several events that the Palace can not and that the Joe is unlikely to, like a Big Ten or MAC basketball tournament or a large convention gathering, with its access to hotels and restaurants, unlike the Palace. Remember the Joe attracted the '80 Republican National Convention right after it was built.

5. I have a few ideas about what the Arena should look like and where it should go. You can check out the plan at
http://www.scribd.com/doc/15970672/N...a-Stadium-Plan

[2blocksaway]

Crawfords post # 66 = the worst most misinformed post ever.

You have to remember that the NHL is now a salary cap league. Yes, back in the day when the Wings payroll was over $70 million they did need the playoffs to break even. Now with the payroll around $50 million....... you do the math.

Sure it would make sense to share an arena with the Pistons but that is never going to happen with the current owners. I can't remember why but these two families just don't like each other. The Wings are going to play downtown in the Joe or in a new arena but never ever in the Palace.


Personally, I am at a lot of Wings games but I did go out to one Pistons game this year and had a great time. The Palace is 20 years old but still looks and operates like it was built yesterday. It is just a fantastic facility.

I believe a lot of bands and other events want to book downtown but the conditions at Joe Louis push them north to the Palace.

A new arena that matches with palace in suites, numbers of bathrooms, places to sit down and eat, variety of concessions, suites, etc. will put a serious cramp in The Palaces side.

[Stosh]

And that's not to mention the potential for concerts and other events as well as the Wings. A newer arena could bring larger convention trade as well. Hopefully.

[crawford]

Crawfords post # 66 = the worst most misinformed post ever.

So misinformed that you have no rebuttal?

Sure it would make sense to share an arena with the Pistons but that is never going to happen with the current owners. .

Seems you agree with my position. As I stated, it makes no sense to have two separate amenity-laden arenas. It would hurt the Pistons and Red Wings.

The Palace is 20 years old but still looks and operates like it was built yesterday. It is just a fantastic facility.
.

Exactly, which is why it's folly to build a carbon copy in the same city.

I believe a lot of bands and other events want to book downtown but the conditions at Joe Louis push them north to the Palace.
.

I think this is crazy. Oakland County is the prime location in metro Detroit. I know it pains people at DYes, but proximity to places like Birmingham, Troy and Bloomfield is key to success at the Palace. Downtown Detroit is on the edge of the metro area, and far from most middle class neighborhoods.

Touring acts stay at the Townsend in Birmingham. They will play the Palace before downtown because that's where the people live, and that's where the money is.

I also don't doubt there are more hotels and amenities in a 10 mile radius of the Palace than there are in a 10 mile radius of downtown.

A new arena that matches with palace in suites, numbers of bathrooms, places to sit down and eat, variety of concessions, suites, etc. will put a serious cramp in The Palaces side.
.

I agree a downtown arena would harm the Palace somewhat, because you now would have two people eating from a shrinking pie, but the Palace would be the stronger arena. You would probably have two weakened arenas, except the one downtown would be in much worse shape, and taxpayers would likely be on the hook.

[Gistok]

Nice spin.... there are likely more hotels within 10 miles of the Palace... but the statistic that counts is NUMBER OF HOTEL ROOMS.... in that regard, downtown wins hands down [[you can add Dearborn to the Detroit count).

Detroit already has 3 of the 4 sports teams downtown... world class symphony, world class opera, major concerts in the 26,000 seat theatre district, Broadway shows at the Fisher/Masonic and Fox, conventions at Cobo, 3 casinos...

... and yet you think that of the 2 arenas... that Detroit will be the bigger loser?

Based on what? On money bags Oakland County?

Those same money bags go downtown FREQUENTLY [[see list above).

There's monied people in the Grosse Pointes, Macomb County, and Western/Southern Wayne County. Not everyone who attends a concert from metro Detroit is from Oakland County.

For folks in Ann Arbor, Wayne County and the heavily populated portions of southern Macomb County... a trip to Auburn Hills can be a royal pain in the ass... [[M-24 & I-75 gridlock)... while going downtown is a 20-30 minute drive.. . since all Freeways go in that direction.