Joe Louis Arena Deadline next Tuesday.

[gnome]

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/hocke...56882816_x.htm

DETROIT [[AP) — Red Wings and Detroit officials are continuing to work on a deal that involves the future home of the hockey team.
Olympia Entertainment has until Tuesday to notify the city if it will continue leasing Joe Louis Arena before a 20-year option automatically kicks in.
The lease expires June 30, 2010.
Ilitch Holdings Inc. spokeswoman Karen Cullen would not comment Wednesday on a lease renewal or whether there are plans to build a new arena.

So, by next Tuesday we should know if Ilitch & Co. are going to stay or go and if the answer is go, where they are are going to go to. Bets are being laid now, the three top spots for a new Arena are:

• Behind the the Fox
• Across the Lodge from Motor City Casino in the old projects
• North of 375 between Cass and Woodward

Any wagers?

[GREENTROIT]

Conventional wisdom says he's gonna build it in the seas of parking lots West of the Fox Theater near the other stadiums, but he gets all the parking revenue from those lots for 81 Tigers home games, so maybe not. I'm still going with that area. I think Corktown is also a possibility.

[GREENTROIT]

I also wonder where they would play if they don't resign the lease. It expires in about one calendar year, and theres no way they can build a stadium in one year. So would they sign year to year leases with the City for Joe Louis, or go somewhere else? It should be interesting...

[Jmil]

Novi - and they are going to include a House of Blues and Cheesecake Factory in the same building.

[kraig]

I also wonder where they would play if they don't resign the lease. It expires in about one calendar year, and theres no way they can build a stadium in one year. So would they sign year to year leases with the City for Joe Louis, or go somewhere else? It should be interesting...

I don't think they're worried about getting kicked out, the Wings bring in too much revenue. Even if they don't sign, Olympia would still continue to manage Joe Louis Arena until the administration would present a new agreement, whether it's with Olympia or anyone else, to City Council and Council approved it.

Does anyone remember if Joe Louis Arena is a part of the Cobo Expansion legislation?

[ScienceFair]

Does anyone remember if Joe Louis Arena is a part of the Cobo Expansion legislation?

Kraig, I don't know the answer, but I think that will be a key factor in what develops on the site. I really hope the City Clowncil is looking at all of the synergies involved with these projects.

[crawford]

They have to renew the lease. I don't understand the suspense.

How and why would they build a new arena? Illitch doesn't have the money, and neither do the City or State. JLA isn't that bad to begin with.

If they desperately need a newer arena with all the frills, well we already have that. It's called the Palace.

Metro Detroit cannot support two arenas with tons of suites and frills. You need to combine hockey and basketball in one arena, and then the suites and frills make sense.

[rsa.313]

it will not be north of 75 between woodward and cass. land ownership is too varied and current owners are asking too much for accumulation. also, M1 rail now has approval status along the woodward corridor on the sale of public land.

[detmsp]

Metro Detroit cannot support two arenas with tons of suites and frills.

they don't build suites because they look so darn pretty... they build them because they are huge money makers. so how would the addition of suites make two arenas suddenly less viable?

[crawford]

they don't build suites because they look so darn pretty... they build them because they are huge money makers. so how would the addition of suites make two arenas suddenly less viable?

Yes, but they are only huge money makers if you have a market to support them.

Excepting maybe New York, I can think of no other city on the planet with two successful suite-laden arenas. Not London, not LA, not Tokyo.

Please tell me why Detroit somehow has a deeper pool of wealth and corporate power than places like London and Tokyo.

Heck, look at Chicago. Chicago has only one arena for two teams. You think metro Detroit, which is half the size of metro Chicago, has twice the market for suites? So, on a per-capita basis, we have four times the wealth? For real?

[izzyindetroit]

Yes, but they are only huge money makers if you have a market to support them.

Excepting maybe New York, I can think of no other city on the planet with two successful suite-laden arenas. Not London, not LA, not Tokyo.

Please tell me why Detroit somehow has a deeper pool of wealth and corporate power than places like London and Tokyo.

Heck, look at Chicago. Chicago has only one arena for two teams. You think metro Detroit, which is half the size of metro Chicago, has twice the market for suites? So, on a per-capita basis, we have four times the wealth? For real?

But people in Chicago don't watch hockey. At least not until recently.

[kraig]

Yes, but they are only huge money makers if you have a market to support them.

Excepting maybe New York, I can think of no other city on the planet with two successful suite-laden arenas. Not London, not LA, not Tokyo.

Please tell me why Detroit somehow has a deeper pool of wealth and corporate power than places like London and Tokyo.

Heck, look at Chicago. Chicago has only one arena for two teams. You think metro Detroit, which is half the size of metro Chicago, has twice the market for suites? So, on a per-capita basis, we have four times the wealth? For real?

Tokyo and London are your arguments?




HOCKEYTOWN!!!!!!!!!!! Get it, Got it, Good.

[MotownSpartan]

Detroit is consistently rated among the top 5 sports cities in North America. We are Hockeytown. While most cities probably couldn't support two suite laden arenas Detroit is probably an exception to the rule. People are very loyal/into sports here.

This is actually one area where Detroit boosters and supporters don't have to put on their rosy glasses to proclaim what a great sports city we are, it's true.

It's funny because if someone on this board even hints that Detroit might not be safe you have a plethora of posters telling them how safe Detroit is but if someone says Detroit can support an independent luxury hockey arena everyone jumps on them telling it's not possible.

[detmsp]

Yes, but they are only huge money makers if you have a market to support them.

Excepting maybe New York, I can think of no other city on the planet with two successful suite-laden arenas. Not London, not LA, not Tokyo.

Please tell me why Detroit somehow has a deeper pool of wealth and corporate power than places like London and Tokyo.

Heck, look at Chicago. Chicago has only one arena for two teams. You think metro Detroit, which is half the size of metro Chicago, has twice the market for suites? So, on a per-capita basis, we have four times the wealth? For real?

your arguments don't even make sense. the red wings are doing just fine in joe louis. how does adding a new source of revenue suddenly make a red wings only arena unprofitable?

And if having two arenas with suites means that the city has four times the wealth of Chicago.... well holy crap, everyone pack your bags and move to the wonderful wealthy world of Minnesota, where the streets are paved in gold, the squirels poop silver dollars and the NHL team and NBA teams play in different arenas.... with suites! That's right, the Wild play at the Xcel Center and the T-Wolves play at the Target Center. Wealthiest city in the world!

sure it would probably be cheaper overall to have the pistons and red wings play at the same facility, but that doesn't automatically make it unfeasible to have them play at separate arenas.

[raptor56]

Metro Detroit cannot support two arenas with tons of suites and frills. You need to combine hockey and basketball in one arena, and then the suites and frills make sense.

ummmmm... We already do. 19,000 people routinely fill the Joe on the same evening 21,000 people fill the Palace. Adding a couple more suites and frills to a new Joe will not suddenly change this dynamic. It worked jsut find for the Lions and Tigers. Should we combind our Baseball and Footabll stadiums too? Obviously Metro Detroit can't handle two large stadiums with suites and frills.

Please name me a city that has two successful arenas with frills and suites. New York is the only one I can think of. It can't even be done in LA or Chicago.

New Jersey: NBA Izod Center. NHL Prudential Center
Charlotte, NC: NBA Time Warner Cable Arena. NHL RBC Center
Miami, FL: NBA American Airlines Arena NHL Bank Atlantic Center
Minnesota: NBA Target Center NHL Xcel Energy Center

Aside from one or 2 of these areans, all ahve been built within the last 7 years, and with all of teh standard suites and frills.

And last I checked, if you have one stadium with all the frills and suites supporting a hockey and a basketball team, you still need to find the same number of suite and ticekt buyers as if you had two stadiums. Buying a suite for the Knicks doesn't buy you a suite for the Rangers.

[ghettopalmetto]

New Jersey: NBA Izod Center. NHL Prudential Center
Charlotte, NC: NBA Time Warner Cable Arena. NHL RBC Center
Miami, FL: NBA American Airlines Arena NHL Bank Atlantic Center
Minnesota: NBA Target Center NHL Xcel Energy Center

RBC Center is in RALEIGH.

And if you want to get technical, Bank Atlantic Center is in suburb of Fort Lauderdale.

But hey, it's only a massive recession, and Detroit is only the hardest hit place. Let's spend money tearing shit down and then lining Mike Ilitch's pockets.

[tkelly1986]

My hope is behind the Fox, but only if it does not result in the demolition of entire blocks of buildings [[ie. Lodent ect...). If they build there with minimal tear downs and build up the rest of the area with parking garages, it could bring some density to the area.

[BShea]

Please name me a city that has two successful arenas with frills and suites.

Well, Cleveland just down the road as Progressive Field next to Rock Financial arena, which is a few blocks from Cleveland Browns Stadium.

All three venues are in the black, as are the teams.

Detroit has Joe Louis Arena, Comerica Park and Ford Field. That doesn't account for Cobo Center and its arena.

Selling suites has little to do with fan loyalty. It's a corporate perk. It doesn't really matter if it's a good sports town or not, especially considering that arenas don't just serve a sports audience.

There are numerous suites at all the local venues leased by families and individuals, not corporations.

My point is that there is no economic reason for the Wings to build a new arena.

Other than making money. The Wings don't get into the black until the playoffs because they don't have the revenue streams from their facility -- even with the salary cap and the team-friendly lease.

The reasoning for new arenas is to build wealth through suites and frills, but we already have such an arena in metro Detroit.

The Palace is privately owned and wants nothing to do with the Wings. And the Ilitches wouldn't have to split revenue with Karen Davidson. It would dilute revenue for both teams and cripple their ability to compete financially in their leagues.

The market cannot support two such arenas. There is no way the Wings could sell 200 suites at 400,000 each, or whatever they would need.

I don't think they'd have that many suites. I don't think Ford Field does. Suites will vary in size and price.

Here's a link to what I've been writing on the subject lately:

http://www.crainsdetroit.com/section...insdetroit.com

[crawford]

Well, Cleveland just down the road as Progressive Field next to Rock Financial arena, which is a few blocks from Cleveland Browns Stadium.

Nope, that's one arena. What does a baseball field and football stadium have to do with this?

Detroit has Joe Louis Arena, Comerica Park and Ford Field. That doesn't account for Cobo Center and its arena.

Cobo? What about Pee Wee Field in Melvindale, while you're at it?

There are numerous suites at all the local venues leased by families and individuals, not corporations.

Yes, and you are proposing doubling the supply of suites at the same time that these families and individuals have lost much of their net worth.. Oh, and BTW, if you really want a suite, there are a few available at the Palace right now.

The Wings don't get into the black until the playoffs because they don't have the revenue streams from their facility -- even with the salary cap and the team-friendly lease.

Correct. This is why they need to share an arena with the Pistons. Absent that, they need to renovate JLA to squeeze the maximum revenue out of the Joe.

The Palace is privately owned and wants nothing to do with the Wings. And the Ilitches wouldn't have to split revenue with Karen Davidson. It would dilute revenue for both teams and cripple their ability to compete financially in their leagues.

LOL, yeah, it sure would hurt to have two teams share one arena, even though every other city does it, and even though there aren't nearly enough events for two separate arenas.

Gee, my girlfriend and I should move to separate one bedroom apartments instead of sharing one. We'll definitely save a lot of money that way!

I don't think they'd have that many suites. I don't think Ford Field does. Suites will vary in size and price.

Ford Field isn't an arena. It has nothing to do with the NHL or NBA.

Do you even know how NFL stadia are financed? Most of the money actually comes from NFL revenue sharing. The owner puts up less than the league. In contrast the other leagues put up nothing.

[raptor56]

RBC Center is in RALEIGH.

And if you want to get technical, Bank Atlantic Center is in suburb of Fort Lauderdale.
.

...which is a 30 minute drive from Miami. No different than the drive from Detroit to Auburn Hills. Same relative market.

[crawford]

ummmmm... We already do. 19,000 people routinely fill the Joe on the same evening 21,000 people fill the Palace.

Non-sequitur. You are telling me we can sell out two sports, not two arenas. This has nothing to do with whether they play in one arena or two.

Adding a couple more suites and frills to a new Joe will not suddenly change this dynamic.

It would radically change the dynamic, because a new Joe only makes sense with hundreds of suites. Absent all those suites there is no reason for a new Joe.

If not for the suites, why would we build a new Joe? You think Illitch cares if the bathrooms are nicer or the parking is easier? If so, you can just renovate the existing Joe.

It worked jsut find for the Lions and Tigers. Should we combind our Baseball and Footabll stadiums too? Obviously Metro Detroit can't handle two large stadiums with suites and frills.

Irrelevent. I am talking about arenas, not baseball and football stadia. The economics are entirely different.

New Jersey: NBA Izod Center. NHL Prudential Center

Izod is being demolished. Prudential is failing.

And you are comparing Detroit to NY/NJ?

Charlotte, NC: NBA Time Warner Cable Arena. NHL RBC Center

The Carolina Hurricanes don't play in Charlotte! They play in Raleigh, which is significantly further from Charlotte than [[for example) Cleveland is from Detroit.

Miami, FL: NBA American Airlines Arena NHL Bank Atlantic Center

Both arenas are huge failures and losing money. You want two failed arenas?

Minnesota: NBA Target Center NHL Xcel Energy Center

Again, both arenas are failures and losing money. Another cautionary tale. Timberwolves will likely move to St. Paul, and Target Center will be demolished.

And last I checked, if you have one stadium with all the frills and suites supporting a hockey and a basketball team, you still need to find the same number of suite and ticekt buyers as if you had two stadiums.

Buying a suite for the Knicks doesn't buy you a suite for the Rangers

Nope. The suite gives you full rights for all events. You buy the suite, not the event.

Two arenas with suites means you need to sell twice the number of suites.

[detmsp]

Again, both arenas are failures and losing money. Another cautionary tale. Timberwolves will likely move to St. Paul, and Target Center will be demolished.

The Xcel center is not a failure. Every F-ing game is a sell out! The target center probably doesn't do so well because the T-Wolves suck, have no history and no fan base.

[GREENTROIT]

I agree that they will renew the lease for maybe a few years, but Ilitch wants and will get a new arena.

And I disagree that metro Detroit can't support two arenas with frills and suites. We sell out Ford Field with suites and frills. The Tigers are 4th in attendance averaging over 28,000 a game in suite and frills Comerica. The Palace had a 200+ sellout streak that ended this season. We would certainly support a new hockey arena. The dual basketball/hockey arenas make a lot of sense in dense cities with incredibly expensive land. That's not Detroit. And there's no way Ilitch plays the Wings in Auburn Hills, so unless the Davidson's move the Pistons downtown [[will never happen), we're going to have two arenas.

[ghettopalmetto]

The dual basketball/hockey arenas make a lot of sense in dense cities with incredibly expensive land. That's not Detroit.

Or, you know, ANY city. Detroit is the only city in North America that uses different arenas for its hockey and basketball teams.

[crawford]

IAnd I disagree that metro Detroit can't support two arenas with frills and suites.

Please name me a city that has two successful arenas with frills and suites. New York is the only one I can think of. It can't even be done in LA or Chicago.

Are you telling me that Detroit has a deeper pool of potential suiteholders than LA? LOL.

The dual basketball/hockey arenas make a lot of sense in dense cities with incredibly expensive land.

Um, like Atlanta? Dallas? Denver? These are "dense cities with incredibly expensive land"?