Bogus 911 call reveals theft in Detroit neighborhood

[iheartthed]

Do you know anything about Chapter 9 bankruptcy? It works a little differently than a bankruptcy for an individual or private business.

Try doing a little research on it, then get back to me.

Okay, sorry. I'm sure you're an expert.

[313WX]

I hear this over and over again. But I have yet to hear how this is going to make things better in Detroit.

For example, this excerpt from the NPR interview cited by jpbollma above:



Is bankruptcy the only solution for the long term? OK, let's say it is. But it certainly won't improve police or fire services, which the OP highlighted. I'm afraid too many people think things will begin to improve dramatically and quickly if the city declares bankruptcy, yet what I read suggests it will get worse before it gets better and it will take a long, long time.

That's why I'm asking, is there a better way?

It's not so much that things would have drastically improved, rather the cuts wouldn't nearly be as draconian as they were in the recent budget.

Thanks to the automatic stay that would have been put in place during bankruptcy, Detroit wouldn't have to pay the banks the entire amount owed on their terms while trying to provide services at the same time, unlike under the current CA/EM.

There are a couple of facts about Vallejo's bankruptcy that are ignored. Those facts include...

*Vallejo only has to pay its creditors 5%-20% of what they're owned
*The retiree's health benefits were reduced from $1,500 to $300.
*Part of the reason the budget cuts were more draconian than in a normal bankruptcy is because Vallejo opted to not have the bankruptcy address their Pension obligations [[which was a stupid mistake). If anything, Vallejo will probably be back in front of the judge a few years from now.

[313WX]

Okay, sorry. I'm sure you're an expert.

I'm not an expert [[nor am I trying to be), but the fact that a municipality doesn't have to sell its assets is one of the MAIN benefits in Chapter 9...

It says so clear as day on the US courts website...

http://www.uscourts.gov/FederalCourt.../Chapter9.aspx

Sections 903 and 904 of the Bankruptcy Code are designed to recognize the court's limited power over operations of the debtor.

Section 904 limits the power of the bankruptcy court to "interfere with – [[1) any of the political or governmental powers of the debtor; [[2) any of the property or revenues of the debtor; or [[3) the debtor's use or enjoyment of any income-producing property" unless the debtor consents or the plan so provides. The provision makes it clear that the debtor's day-to-day activities are not subject to court approval and that the debtor may borrow money without court authority. In addition, the court cannot appoint a trustee [[except for limited purposes specified in 11 U.S.C. § 926[[a)) and cannot convert the case to a liquidation proceeding.
The court also cannot interfere with the operations of the debtor or with the debtor's use of its property and revenues. This is due, at least in part, to the fact that in a chapter 9 case, there is no property of the estate and thus no estate to administer. 11 U.S.C. § 902[[1). Moreover, a chapter 9 debtor may employ professionals without court approval, and the only court review of fees is in the context of plan confirmation, when the court determines the reasonableness of the fees.
The restrictions imposed by 11 U.S.C. § 904 are necessary to ensure the constitutionality of chapter 9 and to avoid the possibility that the court might substitute its control over the political or governmental affairs or property of the debtor for that of the state and the elected officials of the municipality.
Similarly, 11 U.S.C. § 903 states that "chapter [9] does not limit or impair the power of a State to control, by legislation or otherwise, a municipality of or in such State in the exercise of the political or governmental powers of the municipality, including expenditures for such exercise," with two exceptions – a state law prescribing a method of composition of municipal debt does not bind any non-consenting creditor, nor does any judgment entered under such state law bind a nonconsenting creditor.

[Eber Brock Ward]

The magic of municipal bankruptcy.

http://www.npr.org/2012/07/11/156621...res-bankruptcy

There is a reason no Democrat or Republican governor wants bankruptcy in Detroit. It would be a disaster.

Seemed to be a negative outcome for Vallejo short-term [[less fire/police), a positive outcome medium term [[hired back fire/police, building a new fire station, and looks like it will be a positive outcome long term.

I think that's a good example of what could happen in Detroit and be net positive for the vast majority of citizens.

[Crumbled_pavement]

I will assume you are responding to me. From my understanding the city police have been cut consistently. I didn't say Navy Seals, that is a bit dramatic. A bankrupt city would do nothing to fix this problem. City debt is not the same as personal debt. The city will owe it's creditors and that money will come at the expense of city service. It would also tank it's credit. How do you think a population of 700k will react to NO police or trash pick up or firefighters, an emergency manager from the state, and at least 50% of city jobs cut, those not cut would see massive pay/benefit cuts. There would be riots. In my opinion the city needs jobs training along with law and order.

I think my earlier statement gives people the impression I want bankruptcy - I don't. I just don't see the city getting serious and doing what needs to be done without being forced to. To me bankruptcy is like taking a crap. No one enjoys doing it, but what are the consequences if you don't? As others have alluded to, in the short term bankruptcy is quite painful. However, even in the NPR link you provided [[btw, thanks for that, it was quite informative), the long term affects are quite positive. Detroit is falling apart regardless. I'm just tired of maintaining a dying institution that is just dying a little bit more each year. Let's end it all NOW and do what must be done. Let's get the pain out of the way NOW so we can finally begin healing, for the first time in SIX DECADES.

A large chunk of the crime problem in Detroit is that there is NO consequence to committing crimes at all. I'm not debating cracking some heads over giving a kid a hug, I'm saying there is no punishment or deterrent at all. Police don't even show up to most crimes at all, because there just isn't the resources to do so. In a city that can't even afford to maintain the horrible level of services as is, things need to be restructed desperately. Michigan is not going to just give Detroit more money. The burbs are not going to accept higher taxes to bail Detroit out. Detroit can't raise taxes on its current citizens, as those that can afford to move are leaving in record numbers and those that are left behind can barely get by as is. So what's the alternative? No matter how you twist it, bankruptcy or not, the budget must be balanced and services must be improved. We can either voluntarily do it [[which in six decades has not even come close to happening) or we can be forced to do it through bankruptcy. One way or the other, IT WILL HAPPEN. It will either hurt a little or it can hurt a lot, but make no mistake, it's coming!

Even in the NPR link Phil Batchelor said that the only reason each stakeholder came to the table to seriously discuss balancing the budget was because of bankruptcy. Otherwise Vallejo would still be struggling to get by, just like Detroit. No, bankruptcy is not a panacea, nor is it a guaranteed fix. It's not even something I want. But what other way is there? What is the other solution? The National Guard might help as far as the crime situation, but what about all of Detroit's other problems. We either go the bankruptcy route now or we just continue to decline year after year with bankruptcy still hanging over us like a cloud. Let's just get the inevitable out of the way....

Seemed to be a negative outcome for Vallejo short-term [[less fire/police), a positive outcome medium term [[hired back fire/police, building a new fire station, and looks like it will be a positive outcome long term.

I think that's a good example of what could happen in Detroit and be net positive for the vast majority of citizens.

Basically I'm saying what Eber said, only Eber put it in much better terms.

[Mark Smiles]

This is maddening.

It is not like Detroit has no money spend.

It is simply a mater of budget priorities.

The priorities represent the reason the city government even exists.

Look at what they budget for first and fund first.

This is their priority.

What they budget for last and what they cut is not a priority.

They make pension payments first and services like Police and Fire are first to go.

It is all about the actual priorities reflected in the way the money is actually spent.

They should pay a reasonable amount for Police and Fire first, then what is left can go towards the pensions.

[wolverine]

I feel a class war brewing in the city.

So now we have a class war involving the city government vs.state government, you have low-to-no income class, working class, racial class,corporate class, downtown class, artistic class, the local political class andNONE of these individual classes can seem to get on the same agenda to move thecity forward. This is nothing new and has ALWAYS been Detroit'sproblem...nothing new.

When I look at other cities with VERY strong Mayors such asMichael Bloomberg, Rahm Emanuel, Corey Booker and Michael Nutter of Philly,these guys put their foot down hard! They make the unpopular decisions thatpiss people off. But in the end, their agenda is passed and they move on to thenext issue. No stalling and sitting around for decades at a time. Here inDetroit, there is always a stalemate or a stand-off between Mayor and Council.Now it's happening between State and City. In the meantime, people are leavingthe city, businesses are throwing in the towel and other investors move to theburbs or out of state. I'll tell you how impossible it is for Detroit tocomplete a project. Look at the M-1 rail line. I'm not putting this all on thecity of Detroit but the Federal Transportation Department too. To give you anidea how difficult it is to get a major project completed...Detroit'swealthiest investors as a team couldn't even get the job done. That was theclosest Detroit will ever come to getting mass transit and it failed miserably.Why wasn't Dave Bing throwing a tantrum in the face of Ray LaHood? Why wasn'the trying to cut some creative-ass schiesty deals? I know Rahm Emanuel wouldhave been crafting the craziest of ideas to get what he wanted. Especially ifhe were that close to getting it done. Where is the M-1 group now? I have ahunch that the M-1 investors got the wind knocked out of them and the projecthas been shelved. Even Dan "the man" Gilbert couldn't get it done.This has ALWAYS been the story of Detroit. Remember when Michael Jackson wantedto invest in Detroit DURING THE HEIGHT OF HIS CAREER and the city ran him outof town? Do you remember when Detroit's native son Don Barden was run out oftown after trying to invest in his home town? This city is like pond water andpond water don't move.

I agree that leadership is Detroit's biggest problem. And it will continue to not get a single thing done until they get a mayor in that will be assertive over all the nonsense.