Bing imposes new union contracts with 10% wage cut, work rule changes

[Locke09]

Wow. What bitterness. Understandable. But you got to the core of it -- that is the appointees who know nothing.

The metrics you describe are appropriate and certainly a sign of management.

The metrics I was referring to earlier were not measuring the employees of the city, but measuring the productivity of the city itself.

Is the city delivering results to its citizens for a cost that is greater or lesser than other municipalities?

Are the city employees compensated [[wages+benefits) more or less than those in other cities?

Why do these 'industry'-wide metrics matter? Because the Unions are crying about 'cuts'. If the employees are paid less than the median / average -- then they have an issue. If they are paid quite a bit more than average / median -- then they don't.

I agree with what you say about metrics.

And I am not bitter. I just can't stand hypocrisy and inconsistency and prefer to have all truth exposed and not just the portion that people want to tell.

There have been studies of city wages vs. industry wages [[both public and private). I am aware of the results of such studies, as I have done some myself. You have already heard police officers say their wages are the lowest in the state. I can tell you that for the types of professions I have been mentioning, city wages are historically below industry average [[in some cases far below). For jobs like garbage collection, and bus drivers, I am not certain.

I know contractors who used to laugh at the city workers' lower salaries for doing the same job. But the city worker was able to justify making less because their benefits were better. This is common knowledge for many and that is why I think it unfair to portray them as being extravagantly compensated.

Plus, I have been keeping up with every step of this and most city workers had understood there would be the 10% cut and some work rule changes. But when you read the "Conditions of Employment" [[it is not truly a contract), I can see why they are dismayed. I especially like the part where the mayor gets to stack the pension board with his appointees.

[townonenorth]

Some stats could illuminate the disparity.

2 square mile city, which we will call City x, compared to the city of Detroit.
Minus both cities Enterprise Funds, water for both cities, and a few items like bus and airport, among other things that don't apply.

Adjusted for the above, the city of Detroit has a budget [[2011-12) of $1660218055. Prorating the size of the city [[2 square miles) by their budget [[19 million) and dividing by two and multiplying by 147.3, you get a budget of perhaps $1370083481, which is a difference between the two of $290,134, 574.

I know, unfair, but if you go per capita using the same figures, you get:

$1328.56 City x per capita
$2217.11 Detroit per capita

[Locke09]

I'm not sure what the above example is about since I don't know what city x is and what services city x provides to citizens. I don't know if city x is urban or suburban, does it have sidewalks to maintain, streetlights, etc. What municipal projects has city x undertaken that have added to their bond debts, which must still be repaid even if property taxes have gone so low that they don't cover what they used to cover. Detroit's police department budget is more than that 290 million difference. What is city x's police force like, how many officers per capita? Does city x have a health department?

I hate to compare apples to oranges. I doubt that a two square mile city with a 19 million dollar budget has nearly the complexities of a 144 square mile city. But, not knowing what city x is I could be wrong.

Not that there are not obvious needs for Detroit to lower its costs, but is it sufficient to do so solely on the backs of its employees? Where are the other cost savings?

[townonenorth]

I'm not sure what the above example is about since I don't know what city x is and what services city x provides to citizens. I don't know if city x is urban or suburban, does it have sidewalks to maintain, streetlights, etc. What municipal projects has city x undertaken that have added to their bond debts, which must still be repaid even if property taxes have gone so low that they don't cover what they used to cover. Detroit's police department budget is more than that 290 million difference. What is city x's police force like, how many officers per capita? Does city x have a health department?

I hate to compare apples to oranges. I doubt that a two square mile city with a 19 million dollar budget has nearly the complexities of a 144 square mile city. But, not knowing what city x is I could be wrong.

Not that there are not obvious needs for Detroit to lower its costs, but is it sufficient to do so solely on the backs of its employees? Where are the other cost savings?

Not complex enough to rival Detroit's byzantine crapfest, let's just say that.

Suburban city. Call the cops, fire, and EMS, they come. Enough services?
Assessment for sidewalks. County health department, enough bond debt to sting a bit.
$4,215628 for 35 uniform officers serving 15000 people. 428 people per officer, 281 per capita
Detroit has 2,643 uniformed serving 733k. Works out to 277 people per officer. What is the excuse for no service? 2 minute response time for serious shit, what's Detroits excuse? I can't even figure out the immense cost of where all that cash is going in Detroit for the police Department. I mean, wow.

[Wesley Mouch]

Not complex enough to rival Detroit's byzantine crapfest, let's just say that.

Suburban city. Call the cops, fire, and EMS, they come. Enough services?
Assessment for sidewalks. County health department, enough bond debt to sting a bit.
$4,215628 for 35 uniform officers serving 15000 people. 428 people per officer, 281 per capita
Detroit has 2,643 uniformed serving 733k. Works out to 277 people per officer. What is the excuse for no service? 2 minute response time for serious shit, what's Detroits excuse? I can't even figure out the immense cost of where all that cash is going in Detroit for the police Department. I mean, wow.

This is the type of discussion that should be going on. What is the total cost of police service vs. other cities. How about in comparison to Cleveland?

I'd also like to see good unbiased information on compensation as well. I want Detroit's staff to be paid just a bit above what's truly fair. Officers it seems to me are being abused today. So where's all the money going?

[townonenorth]

This is the type of discussion that should be going on. What is the total cost of police service vs. other cities. How about in comparison to Cleveland?

I'd also like to see good unbiased information on compensation as well. I want Detroit's staff to be paid just a bit above what's truly fair. Officers it seems to me are being abused today. So where's all the money going?

City of Cleveland, Ohio total cost is $172,032,604 in 2012 budget. 2108 employees.
http://www.city.cleveland.oh.us/City...andpublication

City Of Detroit, $414,826,229 for 3307 employees.
http://www.detroitmi.gov/Portals/0/d...37000%20RB.pdf

If you REALLY want to know where the money goes, this is the document for you. Also examine the above City of Cleveland document, which brings clarity to EVERY aspect of their activities. Although, to be fair, COD is twice the size of Cleveland in area and population. But if you simply double their costs in Cleveland, to adapt to population and area, your costs would be $344,065,208. A $70,761,021 difference.

BUT, if you double their costs, you double the employees, right? That would give you a total of 4216 employees at a 70M savings to what you have now. Versus 3307 Detroit employees at a 70M added cost.

[mwilbert]

Believe it or not, city departments also have metrics. And employees have performance plans with goals and measures - even union employees. Some of the metrics are standardized and some are specific to that employee and that employee's specific job. Merit increases have been at least partially tied to performance plans for years.

In fact, you can go back to the CAY era and find employees who will tell you they had performance plans with goals and measures. Why do people assume this is a foreign concept to government?

I don't assume that. I know better. In fact, many years ago I was part of a URISA-award winning team doing urban government performance management. As a result, I also know how hard it is to align those metrics and measurable goals with what you actually are trying to accomplish. If you then try to use those metrics to determine whether outsourcing is more effective than keeping a particular function in-house, you are likely to make serious errors.

Sure there has been mismanagement, and most of it is in the area of projects and contracts with vendors. The biggest problem with the city is having people appointed to executive positions who probably shouldn't be leading anything larger than a small workgroup.

This was the point I was trying to make. Outsourcing isn't a cure for bad management, but bad managment makes for bad employees, or at least badly functioning employees, as well.

[Wesley Mouch]

City of Cleveland, Ohio total cost is $172,032,604 in 2012 budget. 2108 employees.
http://www.city.cleveland.oh.us/City...andpublication

City Of Detroit, $414,826,229 for 3307 employees.
http://www.detroitmi.gov/Portals/0/d...37000%20RB.pdf

If you REALLY want to know where the money goes, this is the document for you. Also examine the above City of Cleveland document, which brings clarity to EVERY aspect of their activities. Although, to be fair, COD is twice the size of Cleveland in area and population. But if you simply double their costs in Cleveland, to adapt to population and area, your costs would be $344,065,208. A $70,761,021 difference.

BUT, if you double their costs, you double the employees, right? That would give you a total of 4216 employees at a 70M savings to what you have now. Versus 3307 Detroit employees at a 70M added cost.

Most excellent! I'll pour through.

[erikd]

Depends on how it is done. A 'work to rule' type strike where workers do nothing more than defined by contract, sick-outs, blue flu and other tactics are all possible.

Not saying those are right or wrong, just noting that there are options outside wild-catting. At some point in time a "we're not gonna take it anymore" will be reached if continual cuts occur.

Fuck that selfish government union bullshit mindset. Times are tough for everybody. We have all had to take pay cuts, benefit reductions, and layoffs.

I don't wan't to hear any "we're not gonna take it anymore" whining from the city employee unions. As a private sector worker, the concept of retiree benefits and a pension plan is just a dreamworld fantasy that I heard about from my grandparents. It isn't the reality for anyone in my generation.

And this entitled government union mindset of what they are "owed" doesn't fly with me any longer.

Detroiters pay a heavy tax burden for shitty services. The Police and EMS response time have sucked for decades. The streetlights haven't worked right for decades. The streets, sidewalks, and parks have been in poor repair for decades.

I am 37 years old, and the city services have been shit for my entire life.

The city is broke. Taxpayers have been fleeing the city in droves for my entire life. There is no money left to give the unions what they THINK they deserve.

I support the unions when they fight big greedy corporations and billionaire tycoons to get their fair share of the profits.

I don't support the unions when they threaten to strike against an impoverished city on the verge of bankruptcy, and gripe about what they are "owed".

[Wesley Mouch]

Depends on how it is done. A 'work to rule' type strike where workers do nothing more than defined by contract, sick-outs, blue flu and other tactics are all possible.

Not saying those are right or wrong, just noting that there are options outside wild-catting. At some point in time a "we're not gonna take it anymore" will be reached if continual cuts occur.

All are possible.

All are morally corrupt. If you are being paid -- you have an obligation to work to your fullest. If you think you are underpaid -- you have the right to quit.

The idea of 'work to rule' is morally offensive.

[townonenorth]

Originally Posted by Lowell
Depends on how it is done. A 'work to rule' type strike where workers do nothing more than defined by contract, sick-outs, blue flu and other tactics are all possible.

Not saying those are right or wrong, just noting that there are options outside wild-catting. At some point in time a "we're not gonna take it anymore" will be reached if continual cuts occur.

Sorry that I missed this...

I really feel sorry for the regular officers on the street. They are being thrown under the bus by the city, and their command officers. Work rule changes are probably going to happen one way or the other, but the biggest problem that needs to be addressed is the structure of the department itself.

Looking at the comparison to Cleveland, something is really wrong here, in a systemic way. It's going to take someone with real guts to come in and fix this. And other departments in the city too. That's not going to happen unless you get a EM or bankruptcy judge, though. Voting in revolutionaries is really no way to run a city, folks.

[Lowell]

Reducing public safety worker wages and benefits simply drives away the best and reduces the morale of the remaining. Why should we expect anyone do more than what is absolutely required under those circumstance? Their jobs in Detroit are very dangerous. Compared to surrounding communities it is day and night.

The "I'm not going to take it anymore" point has been arrived at for years. The protest takes the form of leaving for the first job offer that comes one's way.

Along with them goes their cost of training, experience and expertise. In their place is left newbie, if anybody, along with a handful of burnouts punching the clock until they can insure their retirement benefits.

It is a downward vortex that will now gain even more speed.

[Hermod]

Reducing public safety worker wages and benefits simply drives away the best and reduces the morale of the remaining. Why should we expect anyone do more than what is absolutely required under those circumstance? Their jobs in Detroit are very dangerous. Compared to surrounding communities it is day and night.

The "I'm not going to take it anymore" point has been arrived at for years. The protest takes the form of leaving for the first job offer that comes one's way.

Along with them goes their cost of training, experience and expertise. In their place is left newbie, if anybody, along with a handful of burnouts punching the clock until they can insure their retirement benefits.

It is a downward vortex that will now gain even more speed.

Lowell, begin with the police department.

1. You need "x" number of patrolmen and "y" number of cars to cover the city 24/7 with 'adequate" response time.

2. For "x" number of patrol men, you need a given number of sergeants, lieutenants, and captains to man a precinct.

3. For "y" number of cars you need a certain number of mechanics, parts clerks, and supervisors in the motor pools [[or you can contract that out to local garages and car dealers).

4. You need an investigative staff of "z" number of detectives.

5. Then begin building a "lean and mean" downtown headquarters.

6. Everyone else is fat and a drain on the municipal fisc.

[cla1945]

Just an observation, but while reading the Free Press article about the meeting DPD officers had yesterday, all of the police officers they interviewed live outside the city.

Not to blame the unions, but don't they think their lack of property tax revenue for the last 15 years has anything to do with Detroit's fiscal situation today?

Lack of property tax revenue isn't the fault of cops, firemen or any city worker who doesn't live within the city limits. Maybe people should look at the mis-management, corruption, pay to play extortion practices that have been going on in the City for the last 15 years. Appointees, administrators, elected officials, practically anyone who sits behind the desks on the 13th floor of the CAY building are to blame for what has happened in Detroit.
It's time someone other than the workers or people who do not live in the City takes responsibility for what has happened in Detroit.

Pardon the rant.

[313WX]

Lack of property tax revenue isn't the fault of cops, firemen or any city worker who doesn't live within the city limits. Maybe people should look at the mis-management, corruption, pay to play extortion practices that have been going on in the City for the last 15 years. Appointees, administrators, elected officials, practically anyone who sits behind the desks on the 13th floor of the CAY building are to blame for what has happened in Detroit.
It's time someone other than the workers or people who do not live in the City takes responsibility for what has happened in Detroit.

Pardon the rant.

I think all of us in Michigan play a small part in Detroit's demise. I would go as far as to say the US government does too by passing bills such as NAFTA into law.

That's just my opinion though, just like you're entitled to your opinion.

[Wesley Mouch]

Lack of property tax revenue isn't the fault of cops, firemen or any city worker who doesn't live within the city limits. Maybe people should look at the mis-management, corruption, pay to play extortion practices that have been going on in the City for the last 15 years. Appointees, administrators, elected officials, practically anyone who sits behind the desks on the 13th floor of the CAY building are to blame for what has happened in Detroit.
It's time someone other than the workers or people who do not live in the City takes responsibility for what has happened in Detroit.

Pardon the rant.

No problem. Rants can be quite enjoyable.

I most certainly agree that the lack of tax revenue isn't the fault of the employees. That doesn't relieve them from burden of making some reasonable adjustments to help right the ship. It of course also doesn't relieve others of their burdens either. Its not on or the other -- but its both and all.

Rant: Some of the same employees probably voted for KK and other politicians who significantly created the mess we are in. So I'm not quite so quick to let employees off the hook as if they weren't participants in this mess. Rant over [[for now).

[Cincinnati_Kid]

No problem. Rants can be quite enjoyable.

I most certainly agree that the lack of tax revenue isn't the fault of the employees. That doesn't relieve them from burden of making some reasonable adjustments to help right the ship. It of course also doesn't relieve others of their burdens either. Its not on or the other -- but its both and all.

Rant: Some of the same employees probably voted for KK and other politicians who significantly created the mess we are in. So I'm not quite so quick to let employees off the hook as if they weren't participants in this mess. Rant over [[for now).

Even if they did vote for those elected, how is it their fault? They didn't know they were letting a fox in the hen house. Sure, we found out after the fact he had other agendas but KK was actually a rising star in Michigan politics. He was seen as a young, smart, and charismatic politician. This kinda compares to Obama's rise to the POTUS, now everybody and their mama wants him out. I'm not blaming the people who voted, because whoever you vote for is a crapshoot anyway. ALL politicians lie to get votes. It's what they do.

[Wesley Mouch]

Even if they did vote for those elected, how is it their fault? They didn't know they were letting a fox in the hen house. Sure, we found out after the fact he had other agendas but KK was actually a rising star in Michigan politics. He was seen as a young, smart, and charismatic politician. This kinda compares to Obama's rise to the POTUS, now everybody and their mama wants him out. I'm not blaming the people who voted, because whoever you vote for is a crapshoot anyway. ALL politicians lie to get votes. It's what they do.

You make your bed. You lie in it.

I don't think voting is a crapshoot.

We reward lying by voting for them.

By your logic -- every city and state would be in the same dismal place. Some are better governed than others. Why do you think that is? I think its because some groups of voters do a better job than others.

If you learn to vote for people of more quality, you might not have your pay and benefits reduced because money went to graft and stupidity instead.

[Cincinnati_Kid]

You make your bed. You lie in it.

I don't think voting is a crapshoot.

We reward lying by voting for them.

By your logic -- every city and state would be in the same dismal place. Some are better governed than others. Why do you think that is? I think its because some groups of voters do a better job than others.

If you learn to vote for people of more quality, you might not have your pay and benefits reduced because money went to graft and stupidity instead.

NO, some cities and states are governed better than others, because some people who run for office are honest and truthful and compassionate and actually work for the people while others don't. Has nothing to do with voters. We might as well vote blindfolded. Most people vote based on party affiliation anyway, not who they think is the best candidate. How can you tell a person of quality? By how they look or talk? By what they tell you they're going to do, then inexplicably don't do it? Get a clue. You can't tell whose honest or not these days. If you can, then you're in the wrong profession. If you reward lying by voting for them as you say, then heaven forbid, Romney is our next president. Your logic is the one that's flawed, unless I'm detecting some racial undertones in your statement. Vote for who you think will do the best job, and hope for the best.

[Wesley Mouch]

NO, some cities and states are governed better than others, because some people who run for office are honest and truthful and compassionate and actually work for the people while others don't. Has nothing to do with voters. We might as well be blindfolded. Most people vote based on party affiliation anyway, not who they think is the best candidate. How can you tell a person of quality? By how they look or talk? By what they tell you they're going to do, then inexplicably don't do it? Get a clue. You can't tell whose honest or not these days. If you can, then you're in the wrong profession. If you reward lying by voting for them as you say, then heaven forbid, Romney is our next president. Your logic is the one that's flawed, unless I'm detecting some racial undertones in your statement. Vote for who you think will do the best job, and hope for the best.

Of course there were racist undertones. Aren't they everywhere.

[cla1945]

I think all of us in Michigan play a small part in Detroit's demise. I would go as far as to say the US government does too by passing bills such as NAFTA into law.

That's just my opinion though, just like you're entitled to your opinion.

Just out of curiosity, could you please give an example on how all of us in Michigan play a small part in Detroit's demise?

[cla1945]

QUOTE=Wesley Mouch;332034]No problem. Rants can be quite enjoyable.

I most certainly agree that the lack of tax revenue isn't the fault of the employees. That doesn't relieve them from burden of making some reasonable adjustments to help right the ship. It of course also doesn't relieve others of their burdens either. Its not on or the other -- but its both and all.

Rant: Some of the same employees probably voted for KK and other politicians who significantly created the mess we are in. So I'm not quite so quick to let employees off the hook as if they weren't participants in this mess. Rant over [[for now).[/QUOTE]

Rants can certainly make a person feel better, just to get it out.

I disagree with your statement "that doesn't relieve them from burden of making some reasonable adjustments to help right the ship".

City employees have been making adjustments for many years now. Fire employees have not received a raise in many years, they have made sacrifices for the City and now Detroit is asking for 10% more from their wages, plus higher premiums for health care, higher co-pays, higher prescription premiums, take away dental and vision....so, as you can see, they have made adjustments and are continuing to do so; and it's not just 10% pay concessions either when you add in all the others.
Police are still making 2008 wages. As for general city, they haven't had raises either.

Before you dig to the marrow, some fat needs to be trimmed off the top. Between corruption in previous administrations, appointees and other elected officials dipping their hands into the pot that they thought was their own personal ATM machine, millions upon millions of taxpayers dollars have been stolen, squandered, hidden by Kwame, Ferguson, Riddle, Conyers, etc. Now, the City employee has to make more sacrifices because of this mis management, and it's asking too much.

Personally, I would have voted for KK myself had I lived in Detroit. He was a brilliant speaker, young and I thought he was an honest person. Little did anyone know that he had an agenda from the beginning. It's when he was voted in a second time that I threw my hands up in the air and asked "WHY?"

[bailey]

QUOTE=Wesley Mouch;332034]No problem. Rants can be quite enjoyable.

I most certainly agree that the lack of tax revenue isn't the fault of the employees. That doesn't relieve them from burden of making some reasonable adjustments to help right the ship. It of course also doesn't relieve others of their burdens either. Its not on or the other -- but its both and all.

Rant: Some of the same employees probably voted for KK and other politicians who significantly created the mess we are in. So I'm not quite so quick to let employees off the hook as if they weren't participants in this mess. Rant over [[for now).

Rants can certainly make a person feel better, just to get it out.

I disagree with your statement "that doesn't relieve them from burden of making some reasonable adjustments to help right the ship".

City employees have been making adjustments for many years now. Fire employees have not received a raise in many years, they have made sacrifices for the City and now Detroit is asking for 10% more from their wages, plus higher premiums for health care, higher co-pays, higher prescription premiums, take away dental and vision....so, as you can see, they have made adjustments and are continuing to do so; and it's not just 10% pay concessions either when you add in all the others.
Police are still making 2008 wages. As for general city, they haven't had raises either.

Before you dig to the marrow, some fat needs to be trimmed off the top. Between corruption in previous administrations, appointees and other elected officials dipping their hands into the pot that they thought was their own personal ATM machine, millions upon millions of taxpayers dollars have been stolen, squandered, hidden by Kwame, Ferguson, Riddle, Conyers, etc. Now, the City employee has to make more sacrifices because of this mis management, and it's asking too much.

Personally, I would have voted for KK myself had I lived in Detroit. He was a brilliant speaker, young and I thought he was an honest person. Little did anyone know that he had an agenda from the beginning. It's when he was voted in a second time that I threw my hands up in the air and asked "WHY?"

All of which sounds to me like a very tidy summary of why and EFM needs to be appointed. He's going to be the only one with the ability to cut where it's needed instead of all this tinkering at the margins.

[Wesley Mouch]

...<snip>...
I disagree with your statement "that doesn't relieve them from burden of making some reasonable adjustments to help right the ship".

City employees have been making adjustments for many years now. Fire employees have not received a raise in many years, they have made sacrifices for the City and now Detroit is asking for 10% more from their wages, plus higher premiums for health care, higher co-pays, higher prescription premiums, take away dental and vision....so, as you can see, they have made adjustments and are continuing to do so; and it's not just 10% pay concessions either when you add in all the others.
Police are still making 2008 wages. As for general city, they haven't had raises either.

Before you dig to the marrow, some fat needs to be trimmed off the top. Between corruption in previous administrations, appointees and other elected officials dipping their hands into the pot that they thought was their own personal ATM machine, millions upon millions of taxpayers dollars have been stolen, squandered, hidden by Kwame, Ferguson, Riddle, Conyers, etc. Now, the City employee has to make more sacrifices because of this mis management, and it's asking too much.

...<snip>...

All oxen must be gored. You're right about corruption -- but oh well, that's history now. And the money is gone. Unless you can create more money for Detroit -- then cuts and more cuts are coming. Or you can ride this dead horse until it is bankrupt and pensions are gone too.

[Cincinnati_Kid]

Personally, I would have voted for KK myself had I lived in Detroit. He was a brilliant speaker, young and I thought he was an honest person. Little did anyone know that he had an agenda from the beginning. It's when he was voted in a second time that I threw my hands up in the air and asked "WHY?"

That's exactly what I said in a earlier post, Wesley Mouch has his own theories though......