City Council Voted Down Proposed Union Contract 5-4

**313WX** · July-17-12, 12:12 PM

Per the live City Council meeting.

EDIT: Roll Call...

Yea - Tate
Yea - Brown
Yea - Jenkins
Yea - Cockrel
Nay - Pugh
Nay - Spivey
Nay - Watson
Nay - Kenyatta
Nay - Jones

http://www.freep.com/article/2012071...y-cut-proposal

**corktownyuppie** · July-17-12, 12:26 PM

Originally Posted by 313WX

Per the live City Council meeting.

So what happens now? Does the Advisory Board need to meet to overrule the vote? Or do the new contracts just automatically go into place.

5-4 vote is meaningless in this regard. The 4 votes are certainly more than enough political cover for the board to impose the contracts unilaterally. If it was 9-0, that would be a different story.

**Danny** · July-17-12, 12:34 PM

Plantation Politics in its best. Five Detroit City Councils voted HELL NO! in the Proposed Union Contracts and went off to sing Onward Christian Soldiers! Thanks to heap! Pugh,Spivey,Watson, Kenyatte and Jones. You made Detroit a worse place to live! Keep up the bad work.

"So what happens now? Does the Advisory Board need to meet to overrule the vote? Or do the new contracts just automatically go into place?"

The Financial Advisory Board will overule the city council desision even up the State Supreme Court. One way or another the city have to save some cash or go bankrupt! It's going to take more the 80 million dollars of revenue sharing to save Detroit from its financial collapse. Look at the bright side it least it's not that worse as Greece!

**313WX** · July-17-12, 12:34 PM

Originally Posted by corktownyuppie

So what happens now? Does the Advisory Board need to meet to overrule the vote? Or do the new contracts just automatically go into place.

5-4 vote is meaningless in this regard. The 4 votes are certainly more than enough political cover for the board to impose the contracts unilaterally. If it was 9-0, that would be a different story.

The Financial Advisory Board and the Mayor can impose them according to the Consent Agreement.

That said, you better buckle your seatbelts for the long legal rollercoaster if they do implement it [[further delaying the Consent Agreement). Per the public comments, the unions are prepared to challenge the imposed contract in the courts.

BTW, as far as your post the other day about the legal Quagmire surrounding the Consent Agreement itself, it's still there. There's the citizen's lawsuit against the city pending on the Wayne County Circuit. It has the same basis as Krystal Crittendon's lawsuit, but the defendant is the city of Detroit. Judge Amy Hathaway, after hearing the statements on July 13th, delayed the hearing until July 25th. She has said however that she will make a declaratory judgement to resolve this once and for all.

Then of course Robert Davis has filed charges against 8 members, including Advisory Board members, for holding a closed meeting to discussed the union contract in question.

Then we don't know what will happen with PA4 [[it was supposed to go on the ballot per the Appeals Court, but now that decision's being appealed in the MSC) and what impact it will have on the Consent Agreement. But ironically enough, that case will be held the same day as the case in Wayne County, July 25th.

But for all intents and purposes, until a court says otherwise, everyone's still moving along with it as if it were a legally binding agreement.

**dmike76** · July-17-12, 01:03 PM

I give Snyder credit for trying to take on these idiots, but if he thought wrestling control of the city's finances from them was going to be quick and easy, he would be wrong [[I actually doubt he thought it was going to be easy). It took decades to get to this point and the snakes won't be chased out in a year. These fools are going to do anything and everything to keep as much power as they can. I was ok with the consent agreement, but now I'm thinking EM. Lock the clowncil out of the building.

**313WX** · July-17-12, 01:21 PM

Originally Posted by dmike76

I give Snyder credit for trying to take on these idiots, but if he thought wrestling control of the city's finances from them was going to be quick and easy, he would be wrong [[I actually doubt he thought it was going to be easy). It took decades to get to this point and the snakes won't be chased out in a year. These fools are going to do anything and everything to keep as much power as they can. I was ok with the consent agreement, but now I'm thinking EM. Lock the clowncil out of the building.

I still insist Bankruptcy is the best option, legally and politically.

*Municipal Assets are safe and can't be sold.
*The city officials still maintain their authority and right to govern the city.
*A bankruptcy judge will make sure sufficient services are still delivered [[I.E., the city can't sacrifice more services to pay for unfunded liabilities).
*Union and Pension obligation and contracts can literally be ripped up like pieces of toilet paper.
*Even if the union contracts are tossed out, they still have the right to renegotiate new contracts.
*A lot of Detroit's other debt will be wiped out and the rest will be restructured immediately.

The worst that'll happen is the state will have to guarantee the city's bond sells. Big deal. If the state's in as good of a fiscal position as it claims, it shouldn't really matter.

As far as the legal costs, look at this this way. How much do you think all of these zero-sum lawsuits for the arguably illegal Consent Agreement and PA4 are costing us?

**Danny** · July-17-12, 01:51 PM

Mayor Dave Bing on the City Council's failure on City Union Contract.

"The City Council does not want the its employees pounding at their front door at the homes holding pitchfolks and torches saying 'We are going to tar and feather you all.' It's their decision and they wanted it to keep it. In the meantime I will have to work with the financial advisory board on plan B to save the city from bankruptcy."

**corktownyuppie** · July-17-12, 04:23 PM

Originally Posted by 313WX

I still insist Bankruptcy is the best option, legally and politically.

As far as the legal costs, look at this this way. How much do you think all of these zero-sum lawsuits for the arguably illegal Consent Agreement and PA4 are costing us?

There's not much that I fault in your argument. My question is if bankruptcy is the end game advocated for by some city councilmembers, why the hell don't they just say so? Let's have the argument out in the open about what the consequences of a municipal bankruptcy really are.

**jt1** · July-17-12, 05:15 PM

Originally Posted by corktownyuppie

There's not much that I fault in your argument. My question is if bankruptcy is the end game advocated for by some city councilmembers, why the hell don't they just say so? Let's have the argument out in the open about what the consequences of a municipal bankruptcy really are.

I think, and I may be wrong, that before the city can file bankruptcy them must have an EM appointed. The EM will cause more harm to the city than any bankruptcy.

The rationale is that if the city files bankruptcy it hurts the state and surrounding communities. I say it should be a matter of 'tough shit' state and surrounding communities as you laughed while Detroit ran towards bankruptcy. Now we can all deal with the issue.

The reality is, that if a Detroit bankruptcy did not negatively impact the state or surrounding communities/counties the state, Snyder and nobody else would care about 'helping' the city

**313WX** · July-17-12, 06:23 PM

Originally Posted by jt1

I think, and I may be wrong, that before the city can file bankruptcy them must have an EM appointed. The EM will cause more harm to the city than any bankruptcy.

The rationale is that if the city files bankruptcy it hurts the state and surrounding communities. I say it should be a matter of 'tough shit' state and surrounding communities as you laughed while Detroit ran towards bankruptcy. Now we can all deal with the issue.

The reality is, that if a Detroit bankruptcy did not negatively impact the state or surrounding communities/counties the state, Snyder and nobody else would care about 'helping' the city

If I'm understanding things correctly, if/when PA4 is put on the ballot and frozen, we won't revert back to the old EFM law because PA4 repealed it.

I could be wrong though.

But if that's the case, we won't have any specific/legal process for a city in Michigan to declare bankruptcy.

**Richard** · July-19-12, 05:58 AM

Originally Posted by jt1

I think, and I may be wrong, that before the city can file bankruptcy them must have an EM appointed. The EM will cause more harm to the city than any bankruptcy.

The rationale is that if the city files bankruptcy it hurts the state and surrounding communities. I say it should be a matter of 'tough shit' state and surrounding communities as you laughed while Detroit ran towards bankruptcy. Now we can all deal with the issue.

The reality is, that if a Detroit bankruptcy did not negatively impact the state or surrounding communities/counties the state, Snyder and nobody else would care about 'helping' the city

But on the other hand can you really blame the rest of the state for that thought pattern ? Their argument could be that while they were contributing to the city tax wise the residents allowed it to be plundered while the city crumbled around them so why should they care.

Bankruptcy has a stigma that surrounds it and the city of Detroit cannot really be compared to other city's woes,the rest of the world never heard of some little county in Arkansas but you can go to any country outside of the US and Detroit is known.

Bankruptcy is viewed by some as a way to wipe out your obligations without having to be responsible for them,so okay maybe the quickest and best way is bankruptcy but what happens when it is all said and done ,what about the ones that will get burned in the process,others in the future may be hesitant when it comes to bonding issues,you do have to look at tomorrow and the future.

What is different in the city now then from what it was five years ago? There is still bad leadership in place.The attention is drawn to them now so they are maybe being more carefull about how they go about things but it really does not matter what route you go if you still have a bad foundation.

If you total up the millions of funds sent into the city by the feds and state in the past there is no reason in the world for the city to be in the condition it is in population loss or not.you cannot accept all of those funds ,lay a city to waste then claim bankruptcy and expect to do it all over again.

But personally I do not see bankruptcy as a option and even an EFM is a temporary stop gap buying you some time to get the house in order after the first of the year so why cut off your nose to spite your face?

If the incoming funds were applied where they were supposed to go,would she be where she is today ,nobody can say so how can anybody say that bankruptcy is the best route?Based on what?

You can use some of the tools of a EFM and kinda stay in the grey area which is kinda what is happening now while you are in the process of changing management,reviewing the books,and moving the city forward without really bringing in bankruptcy or an EFM with strong leadership it can be pulled off with good results.Your more so in a Chapter 11 do you really need to go to 13?

**313WX** · July-17-12, 05:59 PM

Originally Posted by corktownyuppie

There's not much that I fault in your argument. My question is if bankruptcy is the end game advocated for by some city councilmembers, why the hell don't they just say so? Let's have the argument out in the open about what the consequences of a municipal bankruptcy really are.

Kwame Kenyatta [[yeah, I know, credibility) advocated for it today, but he was quickly ignored as they moved on to the next Council member's [[Jenkins) comment.

In fact, Councilwoman Jenkins was about to chastised him about his remark regarding bankruptcy and they got into a very heated argument about it. That's when they went into a roughly 30 second recess to come things down.

But I think part of the reason people don't want to have the discussion is because they automatically assume bankruptcy = bad/death [[ignorance), when it fact it could be the medicine that will help Detroit the most in the long run. I used to feel the same way about bankruptcy, but in real life it's nothing like what's shown on game shows such as Wheel of Fortune, where if you land on it you lose everything you've earned.

It would help if we had a fair and balanced media in Detroit to educate the general populace on what a municipal bankruptcy entails. But of course, the Detroit News and Free Press only reports their news to their suburban audience, or to the Frank Rizzos of Metro Detroit.

It would be true that under a bankruptcy, the suburbs and state would take a hit in terms of bonding. However, it's not the doom and gloom the suburban media and Snyder is making it out to be. When Jefferson County in Alabama [[county of Birmingham) went into bankruptcy, the sky didn't fall on the rest of Alabama. That's the same with Orange County and California.

It's part of the reason why I like to read alternative news such as Voice of Detroit, DeadlineDetroit and the Michigan Citizen, you get the news from the people of Detroit's perspective

**corktownyuppie** · July-17-12, 07:04 PM

Originally Posted by 313WX

Kwame Kenyatta [[yeah, I know, credibility) advocated for it today, but he was quickly ignored as they moved on to the next Council member's [[Jenkins) comment.

In fact, Councilwoman Jenkins was about to chastised him about his remark regarding bankruptcy and they got into a very heated argument about it. That's when they went into a roughly 30 second recess to come things down.

But I think part of the reason people don't want to have the discussion is because they automatically assume bankruptcy = bad/death [[ignorance), when it fact it could be the medicine that will help Detroit the most in the long run. I used to feel the same way about bankruptcy, but in real life it's nothing like what's shown on game shows such as Wheel of Fortune, where if you land on it you lose everything you've earned.

It would help if we had a fair and balanced media in Detroit to educate the general populace on what a municipal bankruptcy entails. But of course, the Detroit News and Free Press only reports their news to their suburban audience, or to the Frank Rizzos of Metro Detroit.

It would be true that under a bankruptcy, the suburbs and state would take a hit in terms of bonding. However, it's not the doom and gloom the suburban media and Snyder is making it out to be. When Jefferson County in Alabama [[county of Birmingham) went into bankruptcy, the sky didn't fall on the rest of Alabama. That's the same with Orange County and California.

It's part of the reason why I like to read alternative news such as Voice of Detroit, DeadlineDetroit and the Michigan Citizen, you get the news from the people of Detroit's perspective

Between "bankruptcy" and "gentrification", I feel like all the media, including the ones you list, have failed at defining the actual meaning of those words.

**Wesley Mouch** · July-17-12, 08:52 PM

Originally Posted by corktownyuppie

There's not much that I fault in your argument. My question is if bankruptcy is the end game advocated for by some city councilmembers, why the hell don't they just say so? Let's have the argument out in the open about what the consequences of a municipal bankruptcy really are.

1) Because we reward politicians who avoid dealing with issues -- but say the right things.

2) I believe all these tactics are just 'no' being repeated -- not much different than a 3 year old. And like a 3 year old -- they continue this behavior because we reward it by either giving in, or at least delaying pain.

**Cincinnati_Kid** · July-17-12, 09:13 PM

My Uncle retired last year from the City, is this going to effect his pension?

**313WX** · July-17-12, 09:47 PM

Originally Posted by Cincinnati_Kid

My Uncle retired last year from the City, is this going to effect his pension?

Under the Consent Agreement, we're gutting the city services I pay extremely high taxes for to pay his pension right now, so no.

In bankruptcy, he likely would.

**313WX** · July-17-12, 09:51 PM

BTW, take anything Councilman Gary Brown says or does with a grain of salt. Keep in mind he also receives a pension from the city. So of course he's going to vote and speak lockstep with anything that will protect his pension and his job on Council [[the Consent Agreement).

**brizee** · July-18-12, 06:53 PM

Originally Posted by Cincinnati_Kid

My Uncle retired last year from the City, is this going to effect his pension?

My dad is in the same boat.

Lived in the city his whole life. Still takes care of and repairs his house in the shitty 6 Mile/Van Dyke neighborhood.

Worked 30 years for the city and never saw him take a sick day, until his second heart attack forced him to retire last year.

It won't satisfy some people until he fucking drops all the way dead I guess.

**Cincinnati_Kid** · July-18-12, 09:16 PM

Originally Posted by brizee

My dad is in the same boat.

Lived in the city his whole life. Still takes care of and repairs his house in the shitty 6 Mile/Van Dyke neighborhood.

Worked 30 years for the city and never saw him take a sick day, until his second heart attack forced him to retire last year.

It won't satisfy some people until he fucking drops all the way dead I guess.

Your Dad sounds like a trooper. Hope things work out for him. My uncle was a bus mechanic when he retired. He said things were getting too crazy for him, even though he would have liked to continue working. Now he's scared _hitless that his pension will be cut, and he has modest savings at best. It's a shame that these big companies and municipalities are reneging on their promises, while the City and County big wigs continue to rape taxpayers with their exhorbant pension plans. Something has to be done.

**Hamtragedy** · July-17-12, 10:18 PM

Gary Brown also got a $6M payout.

**Cincinnati_Kid** · July-18-12, 02:13 AM

Originally Posted by Hamtragedy

Gary Brown also got a $6M payout.

So he's "double dipping" then. Seems like a lot of that going on in the City and County. I saw where one of Ficano's cronies, retired from the County with a $100,000 a year pension, then turns around and gets hired by the Detroit Water Board, and is making $112,000 per year. "Who says life ain't fair"?

**daddeeo** · July-18-12, 08:48 AM

Another gutless vote for the status quo lead by Pugh [[PU).
They pass the buck and pontificate. Five people more concerned with covering their behinds.

**Locke09** · July-18-12, 09:18 AM

The agreements that the unions renegotiated with the City prior to the consent agreement included more savings, validated by an accounting firm, than this current "Conditions of Employment" that the mayor wants to impose. Those agreements, which the state insisted be revoked, also included a ten percent pay cut.

So they aren't just acting like 3 year olds saying "No, no, no." They rightfully are offended that the state caused the city to delay the concessions it could have received months ago, to create a document that is no better in terms of savings than the concessions already agreed to, but includes language which some feel clearly is an attempt to destroy unions.

So, if this is just about money and reducing the city's debt, then everyone should be offended and dismayed that we could have had an agreement in March that saved more money than this one does.

**rex** · July-18-12, 11:33 AM

EFM time. Let the council remain so we can watch and laugh when nothing they say or try to do works or matters anymore.

**cla1945** · July-18-12, 09:36 PM

Retirees will lose vision and dental care in 2013. Higher healthcare premiums, higher co-pays for doctor visits, higher deductibles, higher prescription premiums. Possibly cuts in actual pension.

In the meantime, Bing hires Kriss Andrews as his new Project Manager for Detroit at $220,000.00/yr., plus all benefits, Cadillac healthcare, and probably a retirement package.

They are cutting the working man's salary to the bone and aiming for the marrow now. It can't get much worse and Police and Fire protection in the City of Detroit is going to suffer even more [[if that's possible) because no one is going to risk their lives on a WalMart salary.