Suburban millage for Detroit Institute of Arts

**Bham1982** · July-17-12, 01:09 PM

Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

If so, sounds like somebody is living beyond their means...

Yeah, the DIA.

They borrowed $170 million for an ill-timed expansion, and now can't pay it off.

Now everyone else has to pay for their wild borrowing, and if you question it, you must be a knuckle-dragging neanderthal.

**antongast** · July-17-12, 01:28 PM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

Yeah, the DIA.

They borrowed $170 million for an ill-timed expansion, and now can't pay it off.

Now everyone else has to pay for their wild borrowing, and if you question it, you must be a knuckle-dragging neanderthal.

We bailed out Bank of America no problem. The DIA is orders of magnitude cheaper, open to the public, and didn't just crash the entire economy. I'd say it's the better deal of the two.

**313WX** · July-17-12, 01:30 PM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

Yeah, the DIA.

They borrowed $170 million for an ill-timed expansion, and now can't pay it off.

Now everyone else has to pay for their wild borrowing, and if you question it, you must be a knuckle-dragging neanderthal.

Now you're just grasping at straws.

**daveyarm** · July-17-12, 01:50 PM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

In other metros, the suburbs aren't taxed for the "jewels" of their central cities, though it's true that Detroit's financial situation is particularly dire. And in most instances, the state would have some financial role.

It does raise the question, however, of why someone in Milford should have their taxes raised to support a non-essential function in a competing jurisdiction.

Interesting example, referring to Milford. Just so happens Milford was the site of a 3-month long DIA art exhibit just a few months ago. Kinda negates the point, huh?

**Bham1982** · July-17-12, 02:11 PM

Originally Posted by daveyarm

Interesting example, referring to Milford. Just so happens Milford was the site of a 3-month long DIA art exhibit just a few months ago. Kinda negates the point, huh?

Why does it negate the point?

If a museum hosts an exhibition in a jurisdiction, it's the responsibility of the jurisidiction's taxpayers to support that museum forever?

**Bham1982** · July-17-12, 02:12 PM

Originally Posted by antongast

We bailed out Bank of America no problem. The DIA is orders of magnitude cheaper, open to the public, and didn't just crash the entire economy. I'd say it's the better deal of the two.

We provided a high interest loan to BofA, which has since been fully repaid.

Is the DIA asking for a loan? That's a very different story.

**Detroitnerd** · July-17-12, 02:48 PM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

Yeah, the DIA.

They borrowed $170 million for an ill-timed expansion, and now can't pay it off.

Now everyone else has to pay for their wild borrowing, and if you question it, you must be a knuckle-dragging neanderthal.

Hahaha. Bham, if anybody considers you a knuckle-dragging neanderthal, I would say your opposition to supporting the arts would be just one reason among a host of reasons. Don't sell yourself short!

**Detroitnerd** · July-17-12, 02:52 PM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

We provided a high interest loan to BofA, which has since been fully repaid.

Is the DIA asking for a loan? That's a very different story.

More mirth. Issuing billions of dollars in stock to buy back government-owned stock is like throwing money away, money that won't be there to cover the next wave of bad debts.

But go ahead and say that an art museum upgrading itself after 40 stagnant years is frivolous...

**stromberg2** · July-17-12, 03:34 PM

I'd like to hear Frank Rizzo's take on this!

Stromberg2

**Detroitnerd** · July-17-12, 03:50 PM

The psychology of your average Frank Rizzo plays right into all of this. The Rizzo profile is a suburban resident who is very angry, economically insecure, worked hard for a modest house and small lawn and will scream and yell if you accuse him of any unearned advantage. You can never play the "race card" with Rizzo, but Rizzo will play the race card in a coded fashion: Instead of skin tone it's about "crime" and "property values" and "families" and "fiscal responsibility" and whatever buzzword means "white" that year.

The funny thing is that the Rizzos of yesteryear used to approve of the DIA. They'd sign field trip slips for their kids to go there and see "culture" on Detroit's dime -- as long as there weren't too many "Africanized" art exhibits. But you have to understand that even though it was fine for his kids to see European art and antiquities when Detroit paid for it, now it's freakin' Armageddon that he has to pay one thin dime to support that place!

Don't get me wrong. I wish them well down in the city. I hope they solve their problems. But they better do it without a penny of my money. In fact, I would spend MORE in taxes to ensure they didn't get any of my money at all.
—Frank Rizzo

**stromberg2** · July-17-12, 03:59 PM

Effin' brilliant!

Stromberg2

**Detroitnerd** · July-17-12, 04:06 PM

Thanks, stromberg2. I kinda forgot about Frank Rizzo. Thanks for reminding me about him.

**coracle** · July-19-12, 04:17 PM

Notwithstanding the weasel words used in the Proposal to hide the facts, the supporters are now bullshitting us with their use of the English language. Their latest ad tells us that we will get "free" entrance to the DIA if we vote "Yes". If we are going to pay the subsidy what is "free" about about it? What is "free" for those that don't want to visit the DIA but have to pay the subsidy? More weasel words!
Frank knows that if this proposal passes they will be back for more and more to feed the bottomless money pit.

**Locke09** · July-19-12, 04:30 PM

There is something inconsistent about telling the average joe that he/she should understand that there simply is not enough money to continue his/her salary and benefits at the level to which he/she had come to expect [[in fact he/she might have to be laid off because only core or essential services can continue to be provided), and then tell that average joe to use some of the meager money he/she has left to fund the arts.

Now I can afford to contribute to our cultural institutes. But all of those people who have lost jobs, taken pay cuts or benefits cuts, or are being asked to pay more for healthcare benefits, should be voting NO on every single millage proposal placed on any ballot anywhere. I'm voting no because I refuse to add to their misery and burden. I'll contribute out of pocket if I choose to support the arts.

**HazenPingree** · July-19-12, 04:50 PM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

Yeah, the DIA.

They borrowed $170 million for an ill-timed expansion, and now can't pay it off.

Now everyone else has to pay for their wild borrowing, and if you question it, you must be a knuckle-dragging neanderthal.

This argument, which I see frequently on the Detroit News comment threads, is pretty frustrating. Actually, this expansion was vital to the museums continued operation and the institution took extremely courageous steps with this project. The expansion was important in that it was designed to turn the traditional stuffy museum model on it's head by creating displays, signs, and legends that were designed to appeal to atypical, less acquainted, museum visitors. As a regional asset, I hope their risky expansion pays off in August - winning new found support from a new audience that travels from the further reaches of the region.

**Detroitnerd** · July-19-12, 05:08 PM

Originally Posted by Locke09

There is something inconsistent about telling the average joe that he/she should understand that there simply is not enough money to continue his/her salary and benefits at the level to which he/she had come to expect [[in fact he/she might have to be laid off because only core or essential services can continue to be provided), and then tell that average joe to use some of the meager money he/she has left to fund the arts.

Yes, a correctly identified inconsistency. However, you have identified the solution that drags us all down. Why should we have cutbacks, salary freezes and givebacks in the first place? Why do we spend trillions on war and corrupt banks but underfund our cultural institutions? Instead of proposing cultural austerity, why not join the battle against the real enemies, the people wheedling our wealth from us to line their own pockets?

**antongast** · July-19-12, 05:17 PM

Originally Posted by coracle

Frank knows that if this proposal passes they will be back for more and more to feed the bottomless money pit.

Not without passing a new enabling law through the legislature, they won't. The taxing power delegated to the county arts authorities is expressly limited to 0.2 mills subject to voter approval.

**Locke09** · July-19-12, 09:20 PM

Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

Yes, a correctly identified inconsistency. However, you have identified the solution that drags us all down. Why should we have cutbacks, salary freezes and givebacks in the first place? Why do we spend trillions on war and corrupt banks but underfund our cultural institutions? Instead of proposing cultural austerity, why not join the battle against the real enemies, the people wheedling our wealth from us to line their own pockets?

Trust me, I do just what you propose. But nobody's listening. People are content to believe that entitled employees, both public and private, have saddled the poor companies and poor governments with unreasonable legacy costs, aka pensions and healthcare. They won't acknowledge that companies and governments underfunded pensions so they could fund pet projects, buy up other companies, maximize profits and inflate their stocks, pay executives fat bonuses, etc. They won't acknowledge that healthcare costs have simply become ridiculous.

But I'm not proposing "cultural austerity." I'm proposing complete austerity.

**Hermod** · July-20-12, 08:35 AM

Originally Posted by antongast

We bailed out Bank of America no problem. The DIA is orders of magnitude cheaper, open to the public, and didn't just crash the entire economy. I'd say it's the better deal of the two.

Except the banks are paying it back [[with interest).

**Detroitnerd** · July-20-12, 09:54 AM

Originally Posted by Locke09

Trust me, I do just what you propose. But nobody's listening. People are content to believe that entitled employees, both public and private, have saddled the poor companies and poor governments with unreasonable legacy costs, aka pensions and healthcare. They won't acknowledge that companies and governments underfunded pensions so they could fund pet projects, buy up other companies, maximize profits and inflate their stocks, pay executives fat bonuses, etc. They won't acknowledge that healthcare costs have simply become ridiculous.

But I'm not proposing "cultural austerity." I'm proposing complete austerity.

The thing is, I think most of us, as Americans, DO feel the same way. And we have a long fight ahead in that regard. But the austerity measures should be aimed at the irresponsible people who got us into this mess, not at us and our institutions. It's quite a leap to get from how you feel to what you propose, I must say.

**Detroitnerd** · July-20-12, 09:55 AM

Originally Posted by Hermod

Except the banks are paying it back [[with interest).

Haha. BoA paid it back by selling stock to buy back preferred stock, thereby throwing money away. But why? Oh, I remember. So they could avoid those executive bonus caps. Hahahaha. And this is fiscal responsibility? Oh, brother ...

**Danny** · July-20-12, 10:04 AM

I will YES YES YES! for the suburban millage for the DIA! Keep the arts and humanities open. Also I want to millage to keep the Detroit Science Center open, too.

**Johnnny5** · July-20-12, 10:11 AM

Originally Posted by antongast

We bailed out Bank of America no problem. The DIA is orders of magnitude cheaper, open to the public, and didn't just crash the entire economy. I'd say it's the better deal of the two.

None of us had the opportunity to directly vote on the bank bailouts, but we do in this case. Honestly, I would much rather see my tax dollars go to the DIA than BOA, but in a three way race my local police/fire and school district need the money a lot more than a museum with billions of dollars in assets.

Originally Posted by Danny

I will YES YES YES! for the suburban millage for the DIA! Keep the arts and humanities open. Also I want to millage to keep the Detroit Science Center open, too.

Whether the millages pass or fail the DIA is not in danger of having to close the doors.

**antongast** · July-20-12, 10:26 AM

Originally Posted by Johnnny5

None of us had the opportunity to directly vote on the bank bailouts, but we do in this case. Honestly, I would much rather see my tax dollars go to the DIA than BOA, but in a three way race my local police/fire and school district need the money a lot more than a museum with billions of dollars in assets.

How is the outcome of this vote going to affect the level of funding available to your local police, fire, or schools one way or the other? Are your local officials proposing to raise taxes to fund those things if this millage fails? Is it even legal under Prop. A to raise property taxes to fund local schools?

**Detroitnerd** · July-20-12, 10:28 AM

Perhaps one point is lost in all this. They tried to get arts funding passed about 10 years ago, and it didn't pass. It was voted down by the people in a referendum. Now, I'm not sure that alone proves that the average metro Detroiter is a boob. [[Frankly, the proof is so abundant in other areas one slim referendum needn't be entered as evidence.) But the way in which it was proposed was a problem: Money for a handful of select institutions, but no broader arts funding. I wonder if instead you proposed an actual broad program of arts funding for anchor institutions such as the DIA on down to neighborhood theater groups or tiny art galleries, maybe you'd see more support for it. Certainly you wouldn't see the kind of inter-city bickering that this proposal has engendered.