15 Detroit Fire Companies closing, nearly 200 demotions

[cla1945]

http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/story/18937765/2012/07/02/15-detroit-fire-companies-closing-nearly-200-demotions

This is going to have tragic ramifications for the City of Detroit. Seriously folks, keep your garden hoses close by because the arsonists are going to have a field day in Detroit from now on.

[antongast]

Whaddya mean, tragic? We're just running our government like a business. Firefighters aren't turning a profit? Out they go. Anyway, Mitt Romney doesn't believe in firefighters, and he's a man who knows a thing or two about running a business.

[Hermod]

Whaddya mean, tragic? We're just running our government like a business. Firefighters aren't turning a profit? Out they go. Anyway, Mitt Romney doesn't believe in firefighters, and he's a man who knows a thing or two about running a business.

Last time I looked, fire fighting was the job of municipalities.

Mitt Romney is running for President of the US, not Mayor of Detroit.

Any beef you have with fire fighting in Detroit you should take up with Mayor Bing and the incompetents on the Detroit Clownsil.

[antongast]

Last time I looked, fire fighting was the job of municipalities.

Mitt Romney is running for President of the US, not Mayor of Detroit.

Any beef you have with fire fighting in Detroit you should take up with Mayor Bing and the incompetents on the Detroit Clownsil.

Who has a beef? Romney talks about running America like a business, Bing is straight-up doing it in Detroit. If running government like a business is what America wants and needs, maybe Bing should be the one to run for president.

[poobert]

Where are all the brave union-bashers that populate this board now?

[EASTSIDE CAT 67-83]

Where are all the brave union-bashers that populate this board now?

Still at work, give em a few hours they will be home at shifts end to continue the bashing...

[Cincinnati_Kid]

Whaddya mean, tragic? We're just running our government like a business. Firefighters aren't turning a profit? Out they go. Anyway, Mitt Romney doesn't believe in firefighters, and he's a man who knows a thing or two about running a business.

You think we have it bad now, you better hope that "loon" Romney doesn't get elected.

[313WX]

Besides the worsening quality of life for tax-paying residents in the neighborhoods [[yeah, I used to think it couldn't get any worse once upon a time too), potentially chasing more of them away, this will also end up chasing more tax-paying businesses out of Detroit due to the even higher insurance rates and poorer police presence to protect them from vagrants triggered by the budget cuts, and potentially more job losses.

[mam2009]

Besides the worsening quality of life for tax-paying residents in the neighborhoods [[yeah, I used to think it couldn't get any worse once upon a time too), potentially chasing more of them away, this will also end up chasing more tax-paying businesses out of Detroit due to the even higher insurance rates and poorer police presence to protect them from vagrants triggered by the budget cuts, and potentially more job losses.

You are slowly winning me over, 313WX. If we just had an EM start the bankruptcy process for us, we would not have to make such severe cuts to vital services. But then I remember that an EM could still impose salary, benefit and wage cuts on our workers too, which would still have everybody complaining that Fire and Police would be underpaid and would leave the City's employ in droves.

[Wesley Mouch]

You are slowly winning me over, 313WX. If we just had an EM start the bankruptcy process for us, we would not have to make such severe cuts to vital services. But then I remember that an EM could still impose salary, benefit and wage cuts on our workers too, which would still have everybody complaining that Fire and Police would be underpaid and would leave the City's employ in droves.

And just where do you think they're going?

[Richard]

I see this happening in other city's ,they lay them off and rehire
under the grant funds , I am not up to speed on unions but it seems
to be the popular way of diverting them.

The grants seem to be popping up just in time always.

[DetroitTeacher]

My thoughts will be with the men and women who ARE on duty every day. This puts each and every one of them in harm's way. This is also a great way to not attract any new FFs. Pretty soon, no one will WANT to work for the city and then what? FFs put their lives on the line every day they walk in to work...this will only multiply that risk a hundred times over.

[Detroitnerd]

For years it was: Privatize the profit, socialize the loss.

Now we're supposed to run government, which we have chosen to pile every money-losing responsibility upon since the beginning of time, like a business?

Har-de-har-har...

[Hermod]

For years it was: Privatize the profit, socialize the loss.

Now we're supposed to run government, which we have chosen to pile every money-losing responsibility upon since the beginning of time, like a business?

Har-de-har-har...

When you say "run the government like a business" you do not mean that the government has to turn a profit. It means that you staff only as necessary and you do in-house only that which makes economic sense.

What you have to break is the government methodology where the more people who report to you and the more layers of management you have under you, the higher you get promoted and the more money you make.

Government service should not be a jobs program. Government offices should be as lean and efficient as possible. That is what they mean by "running it like a business".

Think of government as a parasite. Successful parasites take as little from the host [[public) as possible so that the host stays healthy and can continue to feed the parasite.

[Detroitnerd]

When you say "run the government like a business" you do not mean that the government has to turn a profit. It means that you staff only as necessary and you do in-house only that which makes economic sense.

That's a good line, Hermod. But I don't think you really believe it across the board. If it made good economic sense to send the manufacture of armaments and weapons overseas, where they could be manufactured more cheaply, would you approve of that? No you wouldn't. Not unless it was done as proxy aid to a "friendly" military power like Israel.

What you have to break is the government methodology where the more people who report to you and the more layers of management you have under you, the higher you get promoted and the more money you make.

That's not a government innovation, Hermod. That's the way corporate America works. In fact, overseas, ratios of executive pay to worker pay are pretty modest by our standards. In Japan, it's 11:1. In Canada, 20:1. In Mexico, 47:1. In the United States, it's 475:1. I agree with you that it is a problem, but overwhelmingly in the private sector, not the public sector.

Government service should not be a jobs program. Government offices should be as lean and efficient as possible. That is what they mean by "running it like a business".

Again, a good line, but you can almost guarantee that this is happy-talk for breaking the public unions' backs. And, you know what? Sometimes, the government SHOULD be a jobs program. It would have been much better to embark on a multitrillion-dollar effort to rebuild roads, bridges and airports, establish a high-speed rail network across the country, and create millions of decent jobs than it was to "save" the banks that are basically a bunch of criminals who have bought out the government. I'm sure, though, that you're one of those who would claim that the WPA in the 1930s didn't do anything except give a bunch of lazy slobs shovels to lean on and paychecks to spend on frills like food for the families they shouldn't have had in the first place.

Think of government as a parasite. Successful parasites take as little from the host [[public) as possible so that the host stays healthy and can continue to feed the parasite.

Yes, I want the government to not do anything crazy like build roads or railroads or run schools or employ firefighters or police. I want to SAVE my tax money so I can enjoy my life in my little mud hut on the dirt road where we pass on oral traditions and fight fires with shamanistic magic.

Seriously? Government investment and high tariffs are what made this country great. The people in charge now are doing more damage to this nation than 20 million terrorists could, and all marching under the banner representing the ideology you're spouting. I just can't take you seriously when you come up with these smooth lines...

[mam2009]

...Government service should not be a jobs program. Government offices should be as lean and efficient as possible. That is what they mean by "running it like a business".

Think of government as a parasite. Successful parasites take as little from the host [[public) as possible so that the host stays healthy and can continue to feed the parasite.

Soooo...if the hosts keep jumping ship [[population decline) faster than new hosts can be found, how does the parasite stay alive? Visualizing the government as a parasite is a bit disengenuous anyway. Government exists to provide basic services to the masses, not suck the life out of its citizens. Detroit's government just seems parasitic because it has been abandoned by the masses and now takes far more from its citizens than it gives back because there are fewer people who contribute tax money to the operation of government. If all of the people who began leaving Detroit beginning in the early 1950's would just come back, all of our problems would be solved, right? From what I hear, the city was such a great place to live at the time, right? I wonder what made people begin to leave then [[in the '50's)...

[Hermod]

From what I hear, the city was such a great place to live at the time, right? I wonder what made people begin to leave then [[in the '50's)...

Ummm, the city quit being such a great place to live? Judging from the past census, it is an even worse place to live now. Detroit has a great location. When things hit total bottom, "urban pioneers" will slowly trickle back in and reclaim civilization from the rubble. Things just haven't hit bottom yet.

[mam2009]

Ummm, the city quit being such a great place to live? Judging from the past census, it is an even worse place to live now. Detroit has a great location. When things hit total bottom, "urban pioneers" will slowly trickle back in and reclaim civilization from the rubble. Things just haven't hit bottom yet.

Buuuut...what made it stop being such a great place to live in the '50's? Just come on back "home" everybody!

[iheartthed]

Ummm, the city quit being such a great place to live? Judging from the past census, it is an even worse place to live now. Detroit has a great location. When things hit total bottom, "urban pioneers" will slowly trickle back in and reclaim civilization from the rubble. Things just haven't hit bottom yet.

1950: 1,849,568
1960: 1,670,144
difference: -179,424

So, before Kwame, Coleman, the riots, busing and even before Detroit became anything close to a majority black city, Detroit was losing hundreds of thousands of residents per decade. Doesn't sound like it was such a great place to live back then either, does it?

[Detroitnerd]

I've worked for government my whole life. Trust me: Everybody who works there is incompetent!

[coracle]

I've worked for government my whole life. Trust me: Everybody who works there is incompetent!

Do you include yourself in that statement? Based on the photo you are certainly handsome and look very intelligent.

[ndavies]

So Detroitnerd, what is your solution to the problem? The city has no way to get additional funds. It's already borrowed so much money, it's bond ratings are in the crapper. It already has the highest tax rates in the state and taxes things nowhere else in the state does. It already receives a larger per person share of cash from the state than any other community. Where are you going to get the cash to pay for the salaries of the people working for the city?

If you can't raise more cash, you have to cut. It doesn't matter if you're an individual, business or government entity. IF you can't raise the cash to pay the bills you have to cut the expenses.

[Detroitnerd]

So Detroitnerd, what is your solution to the problem? The city has no way to get additional funds. It's already borrowed so much money, it's bond ratings are in the crapper. It already has the highest tax rates in the state and taxes things nowhere else in the state does. It already receives a larger per person share of cash from the state than any other community. Where are you going to get the cash to pay for the salaries of the people working for the city?

If you can't raise more cash, you have to cut. It doesn't matter if you're an individual, business or government entity. IF you can't raise the cash to pay the bills you have to cut the expenses.

Hahaha. When you argue ideology and things don't go your way, argue the facts.

What are the facts? Detroit is going broke. But it's not alone. Lots of cities are going broke. In fact, you could argue to a certain extent that the whole Western world is going broke. We are a civilization in decline. Look at Detroit. What you are seeing is the world of tomorrow, for all of us.

What's the solution? Get used to it. All the ideology in the world won't save us.

[313WX]

So Detroitnerd, what is your solution to the problem? The city has no way to get additional funds. It's already borrowed so much money, it's bond ratings are in the crapper. It already has the highest tax rates in the state and taxes things nowhere else in the state does. It already receives a larger per person share of cash from the state than any other community. Where are you going to get the cash to pay for the salaries of the people working for the city?

If you can't raise more cash, you have to cut. It doesn't matter if you're an individual, business or government entity. IF you can't raise the cash to pay the bills you have to cut the expenses.

You're oversimplifying the issue. Detroit's problem isn't as simple as just cutting expenses.

Look at it from a personal standpoint.

Say you had to take a 50 percent pay cut as you company is going though severe financial problems. You already not in the best of health. So now, to make ends meet, you must choose between puchasing you diabetes prescription o food. Thing is, if you body goes without one o the othe, you cells and muscles will react negatively and breakdown, huting you health even more, and potentially killing yourself.

That's the situation Detroit faces. It can't decide to only provide what services it wants & to who and risk losing moe citizens and businesses, until eventually no one's left.

[downtown_racine]

Basically get use to working like a Mexican and look forward to a Mexico like homeland.
Unless you're part of the oligarchy.